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Kecessa ,

It’s not time stolen from you as the work needs to be done either way, but it’s money stolen from you as you’re either underpaid or paying too much for what you’re buying.

LoreleiSankTheShip ,

You are not only working to mentain a functional society, you are also working to constantly grow it (each year more stuff must be made, more money must be earned, more of everything) it and also to create a very big surplus for the rich. We also burn perfectly edible food, ruin perfectly wearable clothing and make electronic devices that intentionally break in a few years to get you to buy another one sooner just to get the 1% more money. If we didn’t do all that and they lived normal, non-luxury lives, everyone would have a lot more free time. If everyone worked only 20 hours a week, we’d make enough to sustain our society.

aski3252 ,

Also, most workers are so deeply alienated because they know that they aren’t working for themselves, they are working for someone else. Which is why most people simply stop giving a fuck at some point.

There is so much inefficiency because most who do the actual work don’t have much motivation to do a decent job, yet alone think about what they are doing because you simply get punished, or at least don’t get any reward, for thinking. And they people who (should) do the thinking often don’t have a clue as they live in a bubble.

And of course there is all the bullshit about shipping stuff across the world to do different stuff when it is completely unnecessesary…

Kecessa ,

If everyone was making more money demand would increase therefore people would need to work more, not less…

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It’s time stolen from you if you have to commute to your job.

It’s time stolen from you if a lot of your job is pointless busywork.

Varyk , (edited )

Very often the work does not need to get done, the work uses up a poorly paid employee’s entire work day to squeeze out an extra fraction of a percent of profit.

You’re right about money, and employers are often stealing time as well.

Johnny5 ,

See also: bullshit Jobs

www.goodreads.com/book/…/34466958-bullshit-jobs

Varyk ,

See exactly: bullshit jobs

PrimeMinisterKeyes , (edited )

I believe it was Marx who first observed that superfluous jobs, as well as unemployment, are inextricably linked to capitalism.

EDIT: Found a relevant Marx quote in Grundrisse:

Capital itself is the moving contradiction, [in] that it presses to reduce labour time to a minimum, while it posits labour time, on the other side, as sole measure and source of wealth. Hence it diminishes labour time in the necessary form so as to increase it in the superfluous form; hence posits the superfluous in growing measure as a condition – question of life or death – for the necessary.

See also Marcuse, 1969:

The absorption [i.e. disappearance] of unemployment and the maintenance of an adequate rate of profit would […] require the stimulation of demand on an ever larger scale, thereby stimulating the rat race of the competitive struggle for existence through the multiplication of waste, planned obsolescence, parasitic and stupid jobs and services.

Varyk ,

Great quote. I’m sure people have been spying out bullshit jobs before the industrial revolution, too.

On call standing in the corner to present candied dates or wave palm fronds over the emperor was necessary only for the emperor to fool himself into thinking he was inherently more important than anyone else.

I can’t imagine nobody noticed.

zeekaran ,

www.smbc-comics.com/?id=4042

CrowAirbrush ,

Fam, at my last job they had roughly 23h of activity for me per week. 17h of nothing to do and still having to stick around because i needed every penny to be able to pay my bills.

Kecessa ,

Anecdotal, plenty of jobs where downtime doesn’t exist.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

It is time stolen from you as well. You only need to work a fraction of the time you do in order to cover your wages, the rest of the day is free profit for the Capitalist.

Kecessa ,

You’re ignoring that what you output from your work needs to be… Outputted? So the issue is that you make less than you deserve for the amount of work that you do… If you make 25$/h and it wealth got redistributed so you would make 100$/h it doesn’t mean you could work 10h instead of 40h, your employer would still need you to 40h (or close to it, maybe you would be motivated by the increase in salary and work faster but that’s speculations) to achieve the same result.

If unemployment was at 75% and wealth redistribution happened to quadruple salaries then we could say “Instead of having 25% of the population working 40h/week at 25$/h, we’ll have 100% of the population working 10h/week at 100$/h so in the end the people that are working already will be making the same annual salary” but that’s not the case.

trashgirlfriend ,

Except a lot of people’s work output is kinda fucking pointless.

If we managed the way we worked better and didn’t have the mindset of work for works sake/for the sake of the rich, we could be working a lot less.

Kecessa ,

I think Lemmy’s vision of productivity is skewed by the fact that there’s a lot of office workers on here…

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s more skewed towards Marxist analysis of Capitalism and Value.

Almrond ,

I work in a grocery store, and while I would still need to be in about 25-30 hours a week to ensure product is on the shelves a massive amount of my time at work is useless facing and looking busy after the first few hours of real work restocking. If I was paid fairly I could come in for about 3 hours every day and have everything that needed done done without spinning on a thumb all day just to barely make rent.

Cowbee , (edited )
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m not ignoring anything. Commodities trend towards being sold at their Value, and since Value comes from Labor and Natural Resources, Capitalists necessarily pay Workers less than the Value they create. Ie, if a Worker creates $500 in Value per day yet is paid 15 dollars an hour for their 10 hours, this means they have made $350 in Value purely for the Capitalist. With their 50 dollars in Value per Hour created, they cover their wages in a mere 3 hours, rather than 10. The excess 7 is “hidden” from the Worker, via calling the 15 dollars per hour a wage, despite it being purely for the Capitalist.

A similar process can be seen in Feudalism, though it was more distinct. In Feudalism, serfs covered rent, then produced for themselves. They were able to clearly see what has been taken. Capitalism advanced on this concept to obscure exploitation through the idea of wages, yet still they take profit via paying Workers less than the Value they create.

I recommend reading Wage Labor and Capital and following it up with Value, Price and Profit if you want further elaboration and proof of said concepts, and have a couple hours to spare.

Kecessa ,

I’m talking about a separate issue! Even if rich people don’t exist anymore, something that takes 500h work hours to accomplish will still take 500h to accomplish, you won’t suddenly have to work less.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

You are not talking about a separate issue.

Going off my example from earlier, the Workers would only need to work 3 hours to maintain their standard of living, the extra 7 hours are pocketed by the Capitalist for their enrichment alone.

Removing the wealth siphons reduces the amount of necessary work, as if you only need 3 hours to cover yourself without a Capitalist involved, you only need to work 3 hours.

Society overproduces vast amounts of goods and works far longer than necessary purely for Capitalist enrichment, not to cover themselves.

notsofunnycomment , (edited )
@notsofunnycomment@mander.xyz avatar

A lot of the work we do is effectively to satisfy the (constantly changing and growing) desires or the wealthy (or let’s say, the desires of the people who employ wage workers).

Simple example: labour productivity has grown with 70% since the 70s while real wages have stayed more or less the same. So that growth in output hasnt been going to workers. (The time that productivity increase could have freed up, is now used to produce stuff that the workers do not get to consume themselves).

www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

notsofunnycomment ,
@notsofunnycomment@mander.xyz avatar

mishathings.org/2021-08-23-how-many-people-work-f…

notsofunnycomment ,
@notsofunnycomment@mander.xyz avatar

visualization of distribution of income

Kecessa ,

You’re talking about something else entirely.

Rich people disappear, wealth is redistributed, somehow you guys think that building a house will suddenly take less work hours than it does at the moment? No it won’t, construction workers will be paid more to work just as many hours building that house, they won’t suddenly work 20h/week.

nickwitha_k ,

Rich people disappear, wealth is redistributed, somehow you guys think that building a house will suddenly take less work hours than it does at the moment? No it won’t, construction workers will be paid more to work just as many hours building that house, they won’t suddenly work 20h/week.

Probably a bad example. The wealthy are the cause of fewer houses being built than are needed to maintain the surplus allowing reasonable pricing in the market. And it is being done primarily to extract more money from people without actually producing anything. So, that house would actually get built and probably to better standards than are currently seen with the efforts to maximize profit.

Kecessa ,

Holy fuck! That’s not the fucking point! The time to end up with a finished product is the fucking same no matter how much people are getting paid! Your screws and nails don’t go in any faster! You can’t type faster than your fastest typing speed! You can’t call more than one client at a time! You’re just paid more but the work isn’t accomplished faster!

You’re so blinded by rich people that you’re unable to analyze the rest of the issue!

oo1 ,

So paying higer profit share or wage to construction wokers won’t encouage more people to spend more time building stuff?

Did no one tell you about how competetive markets work? supernormal profits get bid down by market entry.

banks and oligopolistic top tier construction companies, and landowners don’t want more construction, or entry into the market.

by your logic we should just offer people slave contracts and they’d opt in.

Kecessa ,

Unemployment isn’t that high, people who don’t work at the moment don’t do so out of choice (because clearly unemployment isn’t the best way to pay rent!) and we’re talking about redistribution of wealth in all sectors, not just that one sector, so all wages would increase. You don’t end up with more workers suddenly wanting to work construction (which are already well paid jobs in most locations which doesn’t seem to help recruitment!), you still have the same unemployment rate and the same labor needs, you just redistributed wages in a more sensible way.

Hell, demand would probably increase in most sectors due to the general population having more money to spend instead of it being in the hands of so few people, that means more people required to make stuff without having more people to take those jobs!

oo1 ,

Not if you remove the excesses of market power

Kecessa ,

Oh so you think people would suddenly have money and not want to buy the stuff they never had access to?

nickwitha_k ,

Holy fuck! That’s not the fucking point! The time to end up with a finished product is the fucking same no matter how much people are getting paid! Your screws and nails don’t go in any faster! You can’t type faster than your fastest typing speed! You can’t call more than one client at a time! You’re just paid more but the work isn’t accomplished faster!

That’s really not correct. Like, what you are saying here:

Your screws and nails don’t go in any faster!

is literally contradictory to reality.

Automation and technological advances literally make work more productive. A carpenter getting a share of the value of their labor that is both keeping pace with inflation and productivity would mean that they can invest in newer tools and equipment that can allow them to accomplish more in a safer manner in a shorter time. They could, for example, purchase a cordless framing nailer and spare batteries, eliminating the need to setup a workplace generator and pneumatic compressor, which would need to be moved periodically as they work. It also eliminates the hose as a potential workplace tripping hazard. Assistive robotic exoskeletons increase carry capacity while reducing strain on joints, reducing likelihood of injury while increasing efficiency.

You can’t type faster than your fastest typing speed!

But you can automate repetitive tasks, allowing more to be done in the same amount of time. More resources allow one to invest in their own or others’ knowledge to accomplish that.

You can’t call more than one client at a time!

This is true. But how many calls or meetings really are needed and can’t be sorted via email or Slack?

You’re so blinded by rich people that you’re unable to analyze the rest of the issue!

I think that you may be projecting a bit here. I’m just tired of the bleeding of the working class that has been actively in progress in the West for the last half century at least. I’m happy to dig into the slews of data showing how and why people are worse off than their ancestors and where that money has been going (spoiler: the wealthy have been hoarding it and continue to insatiably claw back more via price gouging and wage theft).

Kecessa ,

Man, you truly have no idea how construction works.

I’m done, goodbye.

nickwitha_k ,

I grew up with carpenters, electricians, and other tradespeople and have worked on farms. I’ve got a pretty good idea.

G’luck.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

money is time

HubertManne ,

it impairs the economy. More folks could hire people to do things. Remember there were milkmen and tv repair men at one point in time. You could hire someone to clean your house and they could hire someone to do their taxes. its amazing how an economy works when people have money to spend rather than hoard.

AutistoMephisto ,
@AutistoMephisto@lemmy.world avatar

There were also icemen at one point. Then we invented refrigerators. Nobody seems to miss having a giant block of ice delivered to their house to keep the food we buy at the stores cold. But one thing I think a lot of people miss is appliances that didn’t need to be thrown away.

zeekaran ,

For many jobs it is indeed stolen time www.smbc-comics.com/?id=4042

Kecessa ,

Oh wow, a comic!

iAvicenna ,
@iAvicenna@lemmy.world avatar

well if you got more money per hours of work or things were cheaper, you would probably work less

Kecessa , (edited )

How many hours of work are necessary to build car? Does it suddenly take less just because the employees are paid more? No.

If a client wants an employee’s help for 15 minutes, will they suddenly want their help for 10 minutes just because the employee is paid more? No.

There are bullshit jobs around, but most of them aren’t, the work needed to accomplish the tasks will still be the same.

iAvicenna ,
@iAvicenna@lemmy.world avatar

no but people may work in shifts still getting the same total man hours in a company.

Kecessa ,

Unemployment is pretty low right now, where will you find the staff for that?

iAvicenna ,
@iAvicenna@lemmy.world avatar

For once companies could downsize not because they want to fire people but because there is an excess of jobs. There are many many businesses that produce in excess (take the clothing sector for instance) or others that have already hired beyond sustainability (software and tech). Many governments also have programs to hire in excess for non-required roles to reduce unemployment. There is so much room for optimization but realistically with other effects like average number of kids per family decreasing some degree of automatization beyond what we have now and some change in people’s lifestyles will be required too.

Kecessa ,

Suddenly everyone has a shit ton more money and you think demand wouldn’t go up?

Production would actually have to increase.

iAvicenna ,
@iAvicenna@lemmy.world avatar

some may fall into rampant consumerism even more, but some (hopefully many) will come out of it because they have money and time for decent hobbies actually. so instead of buying tons of easily consumable crap stuff of every kind to pass whatever little time they have, instead they will focus on buying less but more decent of the stuff they are really interested in.

Kecessa , (edited )

So people who have a piece of crap car wouldn’t replace it? People who don’t have a car wouldn’t get one? People who rent wouldn’t want to buy a house? People who never went on vacation wouldn’t want to travel? People who have a phone that barely works wouldn’t get a newer model? People wouldn’t start eating actual food instead of eating the cheapest stuff they can find? People wouldn’t get new clothes, a new TV, new appliances that actually work properly, go to the restaurant…

Wealth redistribution means people can now afford to live a comfortable life, that means them getting what they need to be comfortable.

iAvicenna ,
@iAvicenna@lemmy.world avatar

Cars and phones? %90 percent of people already has one of those. Better income will mean people only moving to better quality ones and the production shifting in that direction rather than accommodating a large economic range as it is now. Homes? There are probably enough homes for everyone, maybe even excess. It is just that richer people own more and rent them out. So no net change in required number of constructions. Clothing? You must be kidding, it is produced in so much excess that it can probably support double the existing population. And again if people get better pay, they will mostly move towards higher quality and not necessarily more of the same quality. Same thing with food, you said it yourself. Production of crap stuff will just be shifted towards production of better quality stuff that people can afford.

It is only people who are at the very bottom like homeless or extremely poor whose consumption will substantially increase with a better economic situation but there can be enough room for accommodating that with better optimized processes and more automation. So much of the stuff you have counted is produced in excess and goes to waste that I am sure even that would be enough to meet increased demand if regulated properly.

Kecessa ,

Oh so you want wealth to be redistributed in rich countries only and poor countries can stay poor, ok got it 👍

iAvicenna ,
@iAvicenna@lemmy.world avatar

you sound like a person out of arguments, good bye.

Kecessa ,

You’re the one who can only think in relation to what the middle class is living now and not what the vast majority of the population in the world is living. Look at developing countries, we can see exactly what the transition looks like when people with little means finally have some wealth going their way and if you think there aren’t people living in bad socioeconomic conditions in your own country then I invite you to get your head out of your ass for a sec and look around you, unless you live in Monte Carlo your peers are struggling, close to 80% of US citizens live paycheck to paycheck!

Mio ,

I am just against what they are allowed to do with this money. How many airplanes full with fules can they blow up just for fun? Want to find fastest way to blow it up. Is it fair that they can ignore the climate impact completely? Just do what ever bad stuff they want to.

Sadbutdru ,

Is that a thing? Blowing up fully-fuelled airplanes just for fun?

Mio ,

Almost. Look at spaceX and their Rockets.

I am just saying that they are allowed make very heavy impact to the climate compared a normal person. Just take their jet plan or helicopter wherever they go is allowed.

EleventhHour , (edited )
@EleventhHour@lemmy.world avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    Cataphract ,

    I mean, that’s a sweet position if the safety nets actually helped. Just kinda lame you have the same attitude as a 1%-er about it which just points to trolling. Would rather my taxes go to housing someone than war manufacturing or price gouging by corporate companies.

    RecluseRamble ,

    I was happy to pay my taxes before I needed it, and I’ll be happy to pay my taxes after I need it. This is temporary, and it’s important that people get the help they need when they need it.

    Problem is that the cost vastly surpasses the taxes you paid and will pay. And since the really rich always have the means to weasle out of the system, the middle class is bleeding until it can’t any more. Countries like Germany are squished by the cost of their welfare system.

    problematicPanther ,
    @problematicPanther@lemmy.world avatar

    the funds sholdn’t come from the working class, but instead the rich. increase taxes on the highest earners to fund welfare.

    thetreesaysbark , (edited )

    I think for this to work you need an agreement between wealthy countries to all apply this kind of tax. This would be an attempt to stop all the accounts from just living offshore.

    Not sure if the EU can apply this as a bloc style rule. I doubt the US powers that be would want to, and then other large powers I’d argue have even more questionable ruling classes anyway, but I’m open to being wrong on that last statement.

    I could be wrong on my first statement too. I haven’t thought it out that much.

    problematicPanther ,
    @problematicPanther@lemmy.world avatar

    no, you’re right. The wealthy would do everything they can in order to avoid those taxes, up to and including moving to a new country with lax tax laws.

    Tartas1995 , (edited )

    That is the fun stuff. They don’t. That is the lie.

    If the USA and EU decides that the rich has the pay taxes then where do the rich go? They go to XYZ country, you might think but they don’t. Their business is in the US and the EU and their wealth is. They can slowly move their business and wealth… But they can’t move their market, which is where? USA and EU.

    Also e.g. The old money in Germany will never leave Germany. Due to privacy laws and the safety that they live in, they remember the RAF and they are thankful for the privacy and safety.

    It is a lie that they tell you. They don’t leave.

    Edit: in case, someone is wondering what I think is a motivator for them. Comfort.

    RecluseRamble ,

    They don’t because they don’t have to - they are not very highly taxed (in Germany business profit is taxed at 30%, private capital gains at 26% and salaries by up to 45% - and the rich don’t have salaries).

    Once you start a policy that is exclusively paid for by the actual rich, they’ll either prevent it or find a way to net profit via their contacts in legislation, or they will just change their main residence to one of their vacation homes. Plenty of German rich folks have done so already.

    Kecessa , (edited )

    Or tax businesses based on where they make their profit, if they refuse to show their numbers and comply close them.

    R00bot ,
    @R00bot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Pretty big assumption here that they won’t pay more taxes than what they get from the government. I paid $20k in tax in the first year of my first non-retail job. If they paid taxes for 7-8 years before covid they probably already paid for themselves.

    RecluseRamble ,

    Your calculation would make sense - if all of your taxes went into the welfare system. In Germany the contribution rate is only 2.6% though (paid on top of your taxes) and with that your whole career might not be enough to pay for a single year of unemployment.

    Also, the payment that arrives on your account hardly is the whole cost. There are up to whole ministries of government to pay for with thousands of tax-paid employees. Every pay-as-you-go system only works if the vast majority pays and only a few get paid.

    R00bot ,
    @R00bot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    That’s fair, though we also don’t know how much this individual is getting from the welfare system. At the end of the day I’m far less annoyed by people like this than by billionaires or even just CEO-types who make tens, hundreds, or thousands of times what a normal person makes while providing arguably similar amounts of economic input.

    Additionally, while this person’s comment comes across as proud, they more than likely actually need the support the welfare system gives them. There’s probably a reason they only started relying on it since covid.

    Crackhappy ,
    @Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

    You are a success story, which most people who have had hardships will be if only given a chance.

    FelixCress ,

    If you can work and you choose to live from benefits, you are a leech.

    problematicPanther ,
    @problematicPanther@lemmy.world avatar

    i think anyone should be allowed to choose whether they want to work, and if they choose not to, they should at a minimum be provided housing, food, running potable water and clothing.

    FelixCress ,

    On what basis? Are you asking me to support financially someone fully capable of working? Fuck that, I have my own children to support. If he can work, he should work.

    Unless you are talking about universal basic income - but this is completely different idea to benefits and should be paid instead of all the other state payouts, including state pension. I am not opposed to that, that’s just basic wealth sharing.

    problematicPanther ,
    @problematicPanther@lemmy.world avatar

    i’m not asking you to do anything, unless of course you’re a member of the super wealthy who don’t pay a fair share in taxes. The burden should be on the wealthiest individuals who profit off our backs and keep us in this perpetual capitalist hell.

    FelixCress ,

    There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the wealthy should pay much, much more than they do. They also should work for their money rather than spending time on golf courses or wanking themselves on twitter.

    That does not alleviate the basic duty of every single person, capable of working, to be able to earn his own maintenance.There is plenty of people unable to do so (or temporary unable to do so) and these should be helped.

    Zoot ,
    @Zoot@reddthat.com avatar

    You should read OP’s edit, cause you sound like an ass. An why the hell do you want to be a slave to work so damn bad, and think others should be forced into that mentality? You do you, but I garauntee if you were in the position of a billionaire, you would be doing the same. No one wants to work. No one needs to work 40hrs. If everyone could make enough from a 20hr work week, im willing to bet their would be a hell of a lot less “leeches” as you so unemphathetically call them.

    FelixCress ,

    Guess what, I don’t give a flying fuck what you think I sound like 🙄

    Zoot ,
    @Zoot@reddthat.com avatar

    Clearly. Just as no one needs to give a fuck what you think.

    Its unhealthy, and a horrible way to go about life. Please seek help in understanding why you think everyone needs to work in awful conditions, and not break.

    FelixCress ,

    It is definitely unhealthy and horrible to be a leech all your life. I somehow think I just found another benefit grabber.

    Zoot ,
    @Zoot@reddthat.com avatar

    You should really define what you mean is a leech. Because if me, a blue collar 40hr worker is a leech, then you must be simply pathetic.

    FelixCress ,

    Can you actually read? I responded to the post of a person who is on benefits because he choose to do so, despite being able to work.

    Zoot ,
    @Zoot@reddthat.com avatar

    Can you read? You clearly tried to say that I would have to be a leech to have the gall of understanding why people do what they have to do.

    You have literally zero context to know they are able to work. You also clearly didn’t read their edit.

    FelixCress ,

    If you can read, can you now try to understand what you are reading?

    Cowbee ,
    @Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

    The good news is that Capitalism cannot be perpetual, so the Hellscape will end at somepoint.

    ProvableGecko ,

    On what basis?

    On the basis that they are alive and if they didn’t get those basic amenities they wouldn’t be anymore. You know, like we do with healthcare in actually civilized countries.

    FelixCress ,

    Oh, but they will be alive. Alive and working like they should.

    Cosmicomical ,

    We had almost full automation for 60 years in factories, where did that money go? There are leeches in society, but OP is not among the relevant ones.

    FelixCress ,

    Two wrongs don’t make it right. The fact that rich people are often leeches does not change the fact that poor people can also be leeches.

    ProvableGecko ,

    Brother. This is childish thinking. The exploitation of the rich is killing the planet, literally making it uninhabitable for all things living. One guy living off welfare is not on the same level, not by a long shot. Get a grip

    FelixCress ,

    What the fuck are you even talking about? Justifying a leech sucking welfare system when he is fully capable of working just because there are other wealthy leeches is like justifying a thief stealing a car, because he didn’t rob a bank.

    missphant ,
    @missphant@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    It’s more like a thief stealing a pebble from the garden in front of the bank.

    Cowbee ,
    @Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

    People consentually drawing from the public safety net to meet their needs are entirely different from a Class based on accumulating vast amounts of wealth and power off the backs of Workers via wage slavery.

    R00bot ,
    @R00bot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Billionaires leech literally millions of times what a poor person leeches, and yet you’re here complaining about the poor person (who has likely already paid more in taxes than they have leeched).

    FelixCress ,

    I am not “complaining” about anything. I am calling leech “a leech” because he is a leech.

    R00bot ,
    @R00bot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    You’re still missing the point lmao. Who gives a fuck about a tiny drop of water when there’s a tidal wave coming for them.

    FelixCress ,

    Yeah, who gives a fuck about a guy stealing car if there is a another one just robbing a bank. Sound thinking, Sherlock 🙄

    R00bot ,
    @R00bot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    You’re getting there. A bank robbery is worse than a car theft, and society does put more resources into preventing bank robberies than car thefts. Maybe we should put more effort into stopping billionaires leeching billions than stopping Joe Schmoe from being on welfare.

    FelixCress ,

    Your point is?

    R00bot ,
    @R00bot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Last sentence in that last comment.

    FelixCress , (edited )

    Firstly one does not exclude the other. Secondly I am not putting any effort in neither, I am just calling a leech “leech”.

    blind3rdeye ,

    It’s good that you are getting support. I do think your jokes here are a bit in bad taste though. It isn’t likely to make anyone feel good about supporting others, or about being supported.

    EleventhHour ,
    @EleventhHour@lemmy.world avatar

    The point of helping others isn’t to make yourself feel better

    blind3rdeye ,

    That definitely is not what I was saying. What I’m saying is that mocking and taunting people does not help social cohesion. It can cause reluctance and spite. We just don’t need that.

    demizerone ,

    Now we know the real reason why you can’t buy a hilux in america.

    Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
    @Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

    Conspiracy theory: The reason we have the Chicken Tax is to keep the Hilux out of the US because it’s too effective a weapon against the military

    Wizard_Pope ,
    @Wizard_Pope@lemmy.world avatar

    It is so smaller more competitively priced and actually usable trucks stay out of your country

    Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
    @Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s too credible for me to believe

    John_McMurray ,

    Top gear put a Hilux up against a 1984 chevy half 4x4 they found on craigslist. The old chevy won, only vehicle running at the end.

    Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
    @Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

    [citation needed]

    John_McMurray ,

    gmauthority.com/…/top-gear-usa-crowns-1985-chevy-…

    Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
    @Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s Top Gear America, which is very much not Top Gear. Plus they didn’t run the Hilux head-to-head. I bet none of those guys have even driven a Hilux.

    John_McMurray ,

    Anyways, point has been made, and proven. They did run head to head. Hilux was the runner up, 2nd last to break. Watched the episode years ago. Now I know you’re thinking of what amounted to a hilux ad on the original top gear. It’s not really true to life. No 85 Chev half tons in England either.

    John_McMurray ,

    You gotta remember hiluxes are just a quarter ton truck. Yeah they’re tough enough, so were old Datsuns. It’s never really mechanics and hard core off roaders that fanboy hiluxes, and those old chevys were fucking tough.

    John_McMurray ,

    Money is not finite. Quit acting like it is gold bullion. It’s not. Whatever amount someone aquires has zero effect on your pile. This argument reeks of grade 2 math.

    Track_Shovel OP ,

    https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/3b62f1aa-ee9d-4d53-91a4-29426c89ff85.jpeg

    MataVatnik ,
    @MataVatnik@lemmy.world avatar

    And people say memeing is not an artform

    TokenBoomer ,

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/141a01bd-8b85-4975-9588-2c0f6eca4eef.jpeg

    /s

    Kolanaki ,
    @Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

    I don’t mind working when it’s either something I enjoy doing and would do without it being a job, or if I can see it tangibly improving something or someone by providing something other people (or myself) need.

    If all I see is the boss getting richer while I am doing something I literally would only do because I am being paid to do it, fuck that job.

    DaedalousIlios ,
    @DaedalousIlios@pawb.social avatar

    Forget not working. It’s not even that I want to not work. I just want to not struggle to survive. I don’t want to have to work a gruelling 40 hours every goddamn week. I want to have the time to pursue other means of work, to contribute to society as a whole, not just to one, single company! Yeah, being able to have more time off would be great, but I don’t want to not work, I want to be able to contribute in my own ways too. And I can’t do that when I’m working 40 hours and still living fucking paycheck to paycheck.

    Mio ,

    Is there any reason why they should keep more money than they ever can spend?

    And at what cost to the climate/resources did they get this rich? Compare that to what they have done for the climate/resource.

    Harvey656 ,

    We have reached the point where this is shitposting. I feel that we have failed as a species.

    Octopus1348 ,
    @Octopus1348@lemy.lol avatar

    Who tf pissed on this image?

    https://lemy.lol/pictrs/image/b8d5d2b7-242a-4d4b-b59c-dcc92a9234a2.jpeg

    over_clox ,

    I want to both upvote and downvote this at the same time. So I will do neither, I will just state my opinion…

    This is not a shitpost, this is fact.

    Track_Shovel OP ,

    https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/07bbdbf7-9ce5-4e7d-adec-b5dad07f8400.png

    Here. Take a booby prize

    over_clox ,

    I dunno who the face is on the accelerator pedal, but it looks like someone loved riding their clutch…

    alquicksilver ,
    @alquicksilver@lemmy.world avatar

    Van Clutch

    Van Stop

    Van Gogh (famous 19th century artist)

    Lost_My_Mind ,

    …but I’m guessing you know who spongebob is?

    over_clox ,

    Isn’t he that dude that wears square pants?

    Fuck I dunno, I smoked too many sponges today…

    FQQD ,
    @FQQD@lemmy.ohaa.xyz avatar

    Van accelerator?

    pm_me_your_thoughts ,

    Van gas

    P.s. I’m not American.

    EarthShipTechIntern ,

    Agreed.

    Billionaires should pay everyone for stolen time, potential contributions to better world living. They currently pay only toxicity, diminish quality of life on Earth.

    Holyhandgrenade ,
    @Holyhandgrenade@lemmy.world avatar

    Billionaires should not exist at all. I saw a post saying that once you earn $999.999.999 dollars you get a trophy saying “I won capitalism” and everything else you earn goes to taxes. We should absolutely do that

    damnedfurry ,

    It’s literally not a fact. Net worth is a price tag, not an amount of cash.

    iopq ,

    You see how that would be bad for the economy, right? Good for individual workers, but bad for consumers since there’s no longer a person doing some service, like I don’t know, medical care. I fell off the bike in Canada and spent 7 hours covered in blood before a nurse saw me and bandaged me up.

    As an American I also had to pay $1000 USD for this (insurance will eventually refund this to me, hopefully)

    Track_Shovel OP ,

    I’m Canadian, and I dont mind our healthcare system one bit. You only had to pay because you were American.

    It’s far from a perfect system, but at least I’m not riddled in medical debt, or have to financially plan to have my wife deliver a kid.

    iopq ,

    It’s not about paying, my insurance will get me back. It’s about the wait time in the emergency room. If you’re not dying they never see you until early in the morning

    PhlubbaDubba ,

    I’m not opposed to being rich, or really even being filthy rich, I think the fair chance of being able to live lavishly is a great motivator for folks to shoot for their best ideas.

    What I am opposed to is being so obscenely rich that it would take several generations of chronic mismanagement for your descendants to manage to blow through the funds within a time limit of “by the end of the 22nd century.”

    Most generational wealth has reduced to being a small supplement for the recipient to supplement still having to work for their living with by the time the original person who built it up’s grandkids have had their turn with it, maybe the great grandkids if the family makes it a point of staying grounded and using the wealth wisely.

    That’s not even from blowing through it like madmen, it’s from how many people it’s getting divided among by then and how likely any one of those individuals are to just decide they don’t need to work anymore on getting access to it.

    Track_Shovel OP ,

    I’m fine with people having money, but there should be a hard cap.

    Billionaires do not need to exist.

    PhlubbaDubba ,

    Agreed, but just saying “you can only have this much money” will get fought tooth and nail, IMO the way to do it is through basing the rates in tax brackets on the percentage of wealth controlled by people in those brackets.

    It’s not a “hard” cap, but it does pit the rich against each other to have more than the other rich assholes while not having so much that they’re all paying an above 100% tax rate.

    Might not be as delicious as frying them for ourselves, but watching the rich eat each other will be far more entertaining, and is shown to be far more effective. Take it from the once Shah of the Sasanian Empire Kavad, if any one noble is getting too powerful, the best tools to use in bringing them down is other nobles jealous of their ascendency.

    erev ,
    @erev@lemmy.world avatar

    But then we still live under the same corrupt system and nothing fundamentally changes except us offsetting our issues onto future generations. Continuing to find ways to prop up Capitalism and make it liveable doesn’t actually fix a ton, it just shifts the burden from us onto our children. That’s why we’re in the shit as much as we are globally right now, and our kids will be drowning in it if we don’t act.

    PhlubbaDubba ,

    I literally just made the owning class start a battle royale against each other and you want to argue nothing fundamentally changes? What are you worried it’s gonna be a .io game and we’re gonna end with a big fat superowner who ate everyone else?

    erev ,
    @erev@lemmy.world avatar

    thats just gonna create a different owning class and continue the cycle. change would be removing the idea of class altogether.

    PhlubbaDubba ,

    How does it just create a different owning class if they’re all at war with eachother?

    You’re coming across as very "nothing but ‘just do revolution bro’ is real change!" right now ma dude.

    OpenPassageways ,

    There doesn’t even need to be any kind of cap, they just need to pay more taxes and be prohibited from buying politicians.

    cecinestpasunbot ,

    At some point people do not actually become happier from additional wealth. If you create a system where people are allowed more than that you are just giving them power over vast quantities of resources for no particular reason. It becomes an incentive only for those whose lust for more cannot be satiated and is anti democratic by it’s very nature.

    PhlubbaDubba ,

    That’s actually not entirely true, although what is true is arguably even worse.

    See money does keep buying you happiness…just in diminishing returns.

    So basically, the ultra wealthy are drug addicts forever chasing the satisfaction they once knew when they got their first big hit having achieved an independent standard of living, but every dose is less and less effective even as they keep upping it, eventually they die strung out and paranoid of everyone around them.

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