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boatsnhos931 ,

Guns don’t kill children, I kill children

cRazi_man ,

The only thing that can protect from a child killer, is a child killer killer. The solution is to have more killers. Stop trying to regulate killers.

boatsnhos931 ,

As part of my pledge to halt or slow climate change, I support killing of any kind to reduce carbon emissions. Go get em tiger. Boil em, mash em, put em in a stew.

cRazi_man ,

I’ll kill for peace

gerowen , (edited )

They are regulated, but there’s a lot of breakdowns in the system. People passing background checks who shouldn’t, prior offenders passing background checks because local cops didn’t report them to the feds, etc. The DC Navy Yard shooter years back literally had fired a weapon into his neighbor’s apartment before and still passed a background check to buy the weapons he committed the shooting with. I also think if you’re a parent and you leave your weapon accessible by your children, and they go shoot up their school, you should be held at least partially liable. As somebody who is former military, the civilian population gets away with a hell of a lot with regards to firearms. No federally mandated training standards, concealed carry licenses are haphazard and go state by state, and not all states recognize other states’ permits, no federally mandated storage requirements, etc. When I was in the military, if I wanted to go target practice on base with my personal weapons I had to register them with the provost marshal on base, keep the weapons and ammo separate in locked boxes out of my reach while driving to the range, etc. And if one weapon went missing the entire base was locked down; gates closed and nobody in or out until it was located. Civilians get by with way too much.

I think a lot of our problem is loose or missing standards at the federal level, which leaves each individual state to kind of make things up as they go along and not communicate properly with feds when things go wrong.

jpreston2005 ,

This is where Finland and Sweden excel. Because they have mandatory military service, everyone with a gun has been trained in all aspects of it’s use/care. Finland is one of the top 10 countries with the most firearms per civilian, and yet their rate of firearm deaths is minuscule in comparison to the U.S..

At this rate though, I don’t see how any meaningful gun regulation can be passed. The nra stopped universal background checks from being passed after Sandy Hook. I lost faith in republicans since then. They’re bad faith actors, that when faced with the prisoners dilemma, choose suicide.

Rivalarrival ,

This is where Finland and Sweden excel. Because they have mandatory military service, everyone with a gun has been trained in all aspects of it’s use/care.

Article I Section 8 parts 15 and 16 empower Congress to require such training every member of the militia, and they have indicated that the militia is comprised of every able bodied male citizen, aged 17 to 45. (10 USC 246)

Congress can require training on safe handling. They can require training on the laws governing use of force in self defense and defense of others. They don’t need to mandate additional military or militia service to achieve this.

immutable ,

While I believe in common sense gun control I think that one thing people might miss when comparing America to Finland or Sweden is just how brutal America can be.

America is an interesting country, if you can stay on the gainful employment ladder you can have a lot of creature comforts and for a few people they get to go up the ladder and have a really nice life.

That ladder though is dangling over the mouth of a volcano and there are more ways to fall off then anyone wants to admit. There’s also a ton of people just barely hanging on.

Easy access to guns is a problem, but the fact that so many Americans are so crushed by the system we live under that violence and deadly violence are things people routinely turn to is also a massive problem. For a lot of working poor the system can feel a lot like running on a perpetual treadmill stuck at full speed. We retooled our economy towards service and knowledge jobs, a lot of people in that service industry make just enough money to scrape by.

There is not a single state in the nation where minimum wage affords a 2 bedroom apartment

So you have a large number of people that spend the vast majority of their time working difficult jobs rife with customer abuse. They earn just enough money to afford a place to stay and food (and a cellphone so people can sneer at them and say, oh you have a cellphone so you can’t be struggling). Mix that with a big pile of guns and violence is bound to happen.

We can take away the guns but I suspect Americans have the ingenuity to find other ways to do violence against each other.

quoll ,

repeal the 2nd amendment

mlg ,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

Pakistan did this thing where they banned rifles (and basically anything not a handgun) without extensive permits for all new gun sales. Then they offered to buy all the guns, which a ton of people traded in for some cash, which greatly reduced the amount of firearms owned by the public.

It would work great here except there’s a 0% chance the government would want to use money to solve a problem.

barsquid ,

Hey, that’s not true. If the problem is that billionaires’ bank accounts aren’t full enough, the government will absolutely run truckloads of freshly-minted bills as fast as they can.

Pacmanlives ,

Why I send my kids off with a Browning M2. We ain’t playing

mojofrododojo ,

children are better suited for crew served weapons where teamwork and nimble hands mean faster belt reloads.

norimee ,

“BuT gUns doNt kilL PeoPle, PeoPle kilL PeoPle”

Then regulate fucking people’s access to guns! It’s not that hard.

Xephonian ,

Problem is, gun are useful.
They protect our children.
They protect our food supply.
They protect our freedom.

And people have been killing each other for centuries before guns were invented. Thinking that guns are the reason for death is clearly propaganda. But you all know that. I’m just here to point out what actual reality looks like. Since none of you have ever touched grass.

Jimmyeatsausage ,

Guns don’t protect children. They’re the leading cause of death in children.

I have no idea what you’re talking about with protecting food…hunting? Not how most people get their food. Most people get food from a grocery store…where they’re increasingly likely to get shot.

If the freedom line was in reference to the military, there’s hardly a vet alive who’s done that… they’re all dead from old age. The only wars we’ve been fighting were for revenge or resources. I say that as a vet.

If you’re talking about protecting us from our government…as far as I know, nobody has even won an armed confrontation with the police or feds over freedoms. Guns made Waco worse. Guns made Ruby Ridge worse. I guess the Bundy’s protected their “right” to steal from taxpayers by grazing their cattle on public land without paying for it like they should have. That feels like a less important right than “life” to me personally.

whoisearth ,
@whoisearth@lemmy.ca avatar

Guns don’t protect children. They’re the leading cause of death in children.

Fucking THANK YOU!

akakunai ,

They’re the leading cause of death in children.

Uh…WHAT? Ain’t no fucking way. checks statistics

…😳 what the actual fuck. Y’all doin alright down there?

Jimmyeatsausage ,

Not for several decades, no.

uis ,

Graph in article shows that until around 2019 most children died from cars.

oo1 ,

fuckin biden making gasoline too expensive /s

It does give the impresson that grand theft auto is a realistic simulation.

aesthelete ,

Problem is, gun are useful.

Problem is, people are stupid.

Which is evidenced by both your shitty grammar, and tired argument.

stoy ,

I have had to say this many times lately, just because something is propaganda, doesn’t automatically make it false.

The best propaganda is the truth.

Since you clearly have no idea of how propaganda works.

barsquid ,

This comment history is a neat little museum of bad takes.

posting_enjoyer ,

oof, no kidding. lotta branworms in that museum.

barsquid ,

I like when they surprise me. “Capitalism perfect, guns good, diversity bad,” builds up a sort of caricature. Then that is completely broken with the weird digression, “HTTPS is bad and imperfect, throw it all out.”

beebarfbadger ,

Cars are useful. Cars protect children in many situations. Cars are among the things that majorly contribute to even having a food supply. Cars freedom patriotism eagles liberty-gasm!

Yet it is still possible to have cars serve those functions without giving in to the lobbies that wish to make it mandatory to get paid for shoving a car down the throat of every loony who wants one to hurt others with. Because cars are well regulated to make them as safe as possible.

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

Because cars are well regulated to make them as safe as possible.

While this is debatable, the regulation of cars is still a useful allegory for gun regulation.

uis ,

Because cars are well regulated to make them as safe as possible.

Usually for those inside, not outside

Demuniac ,

I live in the Netherlands. No one I know owns a gun. Yet I have all the things you list in abundance. Added bonus: lack of school shootings and gun violence.

Your propaganda argument is nothing but you sticking your head in the sand. That, or you are a successful troll.

Jank ,

But how do you deal with the horrors of all that communism?

Is it not a terrifying wasteland with less… consumer goods? I would die without my Kit Kat flavored Trix cereal.

uis ,

I knew two people from Ukraine who had guns. Now I know only one. Another died from COVID.

anonybirdy ,

Problem is, you find gun fun and don’t actually care about children’s lives at all. That’s all it ever really is.

Etterra ,

It’s not Americans; the overwhelming majority of all citizens of all political affiliations want gun control. Like 80 to 90%. The politicians who are in the pocket of the gun lobby are the reason. They absolutely refuse to get anything fucking done and we hate it.

kameecoding ,

I doubt it’s that little given that even lemmy has a fair few gun nuts

aesthelete , (edited )

Probably has fair few bots, foreign actors looking to stir up shit, and a half dozen corporate shills looking to alter public opinion as well.

Edit: Nevermind. You’re right, downvoting guys. You’re all definitely humans arguing in good faith on this platform where all i needed to join was to pick a username and password. 😆

CableMonster ,

We have too many guns, all you will do is take away guns from people that are not going to do anything wrong, and then make tens of millions of law abiding people into criminals.

gallopingsnail ,
@gallopingsnail@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Yes you see, there’s simply nothing we can do. It just has to be this way.There’s simply nothing we can do.

CableMonster ,

I explained why you cant in a concise way and your response is the standard NPC mockery.

gallopingsnail ,
@gallopingsnail@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Short quips based on American exceptionalism get low effort responses ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯

CableMonster ,

Its not short quips its unsurmountable facts. It doesnt even start to get into deeper arguments about what people should or shouldnt be allowed. Its literally impossible to take away guns without huge country destroying impacts.

boogetyboo ,
@boogetyboo@aussie.zone avatar

That’s so silly

CableMonster ,

Its silly if you dont know people with guns and how many they have. I really do think its a cultural thing and you just are not aware of the other people. Cue “I grew up around guns and…”

boogetyboo ,
@boogetyboo@aussie.zone avatar

No, guns are for maiming and killing living things. I didn’t grow up in the bush or in a rural area, so there was no need to shoot anything.

Had my parents raised me around guns in suburbia then I would have categorised them as reckless fuckwits.

Because who in their right mind keeps guns anywhere near children? That’s absurd. To think that’s normal is institutionalised, cult-thought.

CableMonster ,

You can look down on gun owners and disparage them all you want, but it is irrelevant to what I mentioned. Let me put it more concisely - the benefits to taking away peoples guns will have 100x or more worse impact from trying to take away guns. It literally would not work.

Triasha ,

You give us too much credit.

twig ,

A lot of Americans do actually support some gun control measures. A lot of Americans also don’t actually know how insanely hard and effectively the NRA has organized and opposed any remotely reasonable gun control measure. They basically ensure that any hearing on the subject is flooded by their members to oppose it. They just go and many sane Americans don’t.

  • The ATF has no ability to have searchable records of firearm sales. To run a “trace” they need to use fucking microfilm or manually go through literal shipping containers full of receipts that are scarcely legible due to water damage. Article.
  • Also, measure to apply for funding for the CDC to
  • Measure to impose some reasonable restrictions on the ability to purchase firearms for, say, known domestic abusers: no, because we just don’t fucking care.

I’m not American, but I actually support sane firearm ownership. I look at the lunacy over there and I am almost shocked. I really do think, from hearing about this as much as I do, that many Americans support sane measures. But the NRA is a huge problem. It prevents people from even being educated on this issue.

rockstarmode , (edited )

I’m going to get all kinds of negative votes for speaking up here. I’m not attempting to defend the various positions I outline below, just to explain why the gun folks see the current situation as the least bad alternative. If gun people in the US actually had their way the laws would be MUCH more permissive than they already are.

Again, I’m not attempting to defend the various positions, only to lend some context (and in the case of domestic abuse, to correct) the talking points above.

If the second amendment is explicitly designed to allow normal citizens to defend themselves against a tyrannical government, then allowing that same government to compile a registry of gun ownership makes no sense. Registration inevitably leads to confiscation, see Australia and New Zealand for recent examples.

(Note; It’s highly suspect that non-military ownership of small arms could effectively fight the US military. Years of attrition in Afghanistan might be the counterpoint here.)

The CDC was examining gun violence statistics in the past, but then ventured outside of the realm of science and into political speech. Most gun people are ok with making science based recommendations determined by facts. But they’re worried that a government entity funded for the purpose of science but controlled by unelected anti-gun bureaucrats will push policy based on politics.

(Note: Any gun policy has some base in science, the question is whether the policy controls the science, or whether science leads the way. Counterpoint: national COVID policy was marginally effective at great cost, both in lives lost and economically)

There are measures to keep “known” domestic abusers from purchasing or possessing firearms. If “known” means “convicted” or under indictment, then those folks are legally prohibited from firearm ownership or possession. This was recently confirmed by a notoriously pro-gun Supreme Court in United States v. Rahimi, by an overwhelming 8-1 majority. Even a restraining order for domestic violence is enough to prohibit purchase or possession.

(Note: enforcement of gun confiscation from prohibited persons is spotty at best, but it’s arguable that this is a problem with policing as the laws are already on the books. The counterpoint here would be the ability in many states to conduct private party transfers without the involvement of a licenced firearms dealer or the requisite background check)

Xephonian ,

I’m not American,

Then your opinion is irrelevant.

vaultdweller013 ,

I am personally against a central firearms data base, but thats for “I dont trust someone like Trump” reasons IE I dont trust some jackboot from causing trouble. But that aside the NRA needs to be dissolved and its leadership drawn and fucken quartered. They have done infinitely more damage to gun rights as a whole than any other organization, combine that with the classism and racism of said oraganization and I can say with compelte certainty that they deserve liquidation.

Fuck the NRA the traitorous Rusky puppets that they are.

uis ,

I am personally against a central firearms data base

There is already one. They just don’t use sorting for now.

but thats for “I dont trust someone like Trump” reasons

It’s just flipping a switch. “Someone like Trump” will do it without any problem

uis ,

The ATF has no ability to have searchable records of firearm sales. To run a “trace” they need to use fucking microfilm or manually go through literal shipping containers full of receipts that are scarcely legible due to water damage. Article.

Can’t they just scan them? I’ll read article meanwhile.

EDIT:

Keyword searches, or sorting by date or any other field, are strictly prohibited.

Th-- wh-- how?!

twig ,

Right?! I know. It’s so needlessly complicated. When I first learned about this my jaw legit dropped.

I’m not even necessarily proposing a registry but this is just fucking ridiculous.

El_guapazo , (edited )

We teachers once has a “stop the bleed” training before school started (high school) a few years ago It was very sobering and traumatizing. We haven’t repeated it but we had to learn about using tourniquets, packing wounds, and stopping the bleeding after a school mass shooting. I’m sure it led to teacher turnover.

simplejack ,
@simplejack@lemmy.world avatar

If gunning down little kids with lunchboxes isn’t enough to make you dial the guns town a notch, then nothing will.

Triasha ,

Sandy Hook survivors are in high school now and some are getting into activism.

nickwitha_k ,

Columbine happened when I was a kid and nothing of any substance has been done since.

Jiggle_Physics ,

The mass school shootings didn’t really take off off until the mid 2000s. So we are really just seeing the generation of constant mass shootings come into adulthood.

When columbine happened it was rare for that type of shooting to happen at a school. The actual rate of school shootings was rapidly dropping by the late 90s too. It is still much lower than it was, only these mass shootings has increased. So, with it being, at the time, a rare event, and shootings in schools on a rapid decline, it just didn’t hit the way it seems to have affected gen z/alpha.

PhlubbaDubba ,

Republicans, universal gun care and state mandated child control, but only after you’ve suffered 9 months against your will to bring them into this world if you even survive the experience.

Mouselemming ,

Yes, it’s horrible the gun situation in the US.

But knowing how to stop someone bleeding to death can be useful in other dystopian situations as well. Like industrial accidents from bad management and OSHA/child-labor violations. Or non-gun injuries from abusive adults.

Or just stupid stuff that kids and/or adults do to maim themselves, like avocado knife injuries.

Don’t knock the first aid training.

Do go after the guns.

aesthelete ,

Like industrial accidents from bad management and OSHA/child-labor violations.

Yes, which certainly we’d expect a kindergartener to encounter. /s

If you have a situation in your country where you’re regularly expecting kindergartners to perform first aid, you’ve failed them before you’ve even kicked off the lesson.

Mouselemming ,

Rather than me copypasting a link, you Google

“Child labor slaughterhouses”

and pick a news source that works for you. (Because NYT works for me but might give you a paywall, whereas CNN pops up a bunch of irritating ads for me, for instance.)

aesthelete ,

The problem is the slaughterhouses hiring children, not that the children working there can’t moonlight as EMTs. 🤦

Mouselemming ,

It was actually cleaning companies that worked after hour and used children in cleaning slaughterhouses. Which is of course terrible and dangerous. (Slightly less traumatic than actually killing the animals but still inexcusable.)

I’m not recommending it. It was what I was referring to as dystopian.

But even in my childish '60s childhood there was a bicycle accident where knowing something to do about stopping bleeding would have helped both the other kid and me.

Having been in life-or-death medical situations since then, it’s a lot less mentally traumatic if you know something you can do and focus on trying to do it right, instead of trying to figure out from scratch what if anything you could do.

aesthelete ,

Dude we’re discussing kindergartners.

A kindergartener having to even be in high trauma situations in the first place is a societal failing, and one that probably shouldn’t be papered over by giving them first aid training but instead be handled by addressing the reasons why you’re putting so many kindergarteners in traumatic situations in the first place.

Edit: I can see the case for this type of training in young adulthood, but kindergartners? GTFOH

Mouselemming ,

Obviously society is broken, and guns are doing a lot of the breaking. The people teaching these classes agree about that as well. But they’re not in a position to fix that. They’re trying to use the skills they have to mitigate one part of the fuckedness. Maybe two parts: a kindergartner could perhaps save their friend’s life one day, and in the meantime they’re already having justified nightmares about shootings, so maybe the lesson will let them turn those dreamstories in a slightly better direction.

ObstreperousCanadian ,
@ObstreperousCanadian@lemmy.ca avatar

America loves their school shootings. If they didn’t, they would’ve done something about it by now.

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