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PanArab ,

“Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism, free markets, representative democracy, legal rights and state monopoly on violence. It includes a large portion of the present day political spectrum, from the centre-left social democrats to the far-right conservatives and American libertarians.”

sunbytes ,

That is… a lot of people

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes. Liberalism is the dominant ideology in the World today.

Iamthepurpleguysport ,

Nice

LoveSausage ,

Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleed…

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Authoritarian Communist

I see this term used so often from the lofty reaches of some national news rag or echoing out of a Senate star chamber. The CEO is stamping it into an EULA, as an irrevocable term of service. The corporate union-buster is putting it up in 120 point font in a company wide mandatory power point presentation. The evangelical minister is denouncing it from the pulpit as part of a catechism call-and-response. The nosey neighbor is whispering it into the phone, hoping a SWAT team will remove someone from the block. The police holding you face down in a bucket of water are screaming it in your ears.

Beware the authoritarian communist. Beware the tankies. Beware the Chinese / Russian / Venezuelan social terrorists, fifth columnists, and outside agitators. Beware the college kid in the Che Guevera t-shirt. Beware the Anti-American. Whatever you think we might be doing to you now, they’ll be ten times worse.

Cryophilia ,

It’s just a more politically correct way to say tankie.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

I’ve never heard a cop called a Tankie.

But they’re always the ones in the large militant unions demanding more public money while driving around in actual tanks.

Cryophilia ,

To be fair, Chinese cops would probably be tankies.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Few carry guns. I don’t think I’ve ever seen the Chinese police equivalent to the NYPD Police Tank that was used to raid the Columbia campus.

Cryophilia ,

Meaningless distinction. Whether it’s military or whatever. Whichever state supported group is shooting and beating and arresting protestors in China, they’re tankies.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Whichever state supported group is shooting and beating and arresting protestors in China

I’m more concerned with the police lashing out at protesters closer to home

Cryophilia ,

Cool but that’s not what I was talking about.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Right. It was a fixation on “China Bad”

Cryophilia ,

Yes.

archomrade ,

Whichever state supported group is shooting and beating and arresting protestors in China America, they’re tankies.

FTFY

Cryophilia ,

Nah, American Yeehawdists like their freedumb.

Similar but related bastardry.

Cryophilia ,

Usually because it’s a fascist doing the scratching, so the liberal punches him

Crikeste ,

What an absolutely childish and moronic way or rewriting history. Typical lib.

Cowbee , (edited )
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

That’s all Cryophillia does, lol. Attempt to rewrite definitions and history.

Cryophilia ,

Also call out tankies and fash pretending to be tankies.

Hello!

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Nah, you just call anyone left of Social Democrats “tankie,” lol.

Cryophilia ,

Most of em are

It’s an infestation

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Everything is scary when you’re scared of everything.

Cryophilia ,

Non sequitur says what?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

“Non sequitur says what?”

Cryophilia ,

Punching Nazis into dust since 1941. Commies too.

You’re just salty because our superior ideology beat yours into dust (this applies if you’re an actual communist or just a right wing agitator pretending to be one).

FlickeringScreens ,

scratch.mit.edu ?

mino ,
@mino@lemmy.ml avatar

I ‘am’ an anarcho-communist and I don’t like libtards. Libtards to me are ‘progressive capitalists’ that have no systemic insight what so ever and think all it takes to bring upon heaven on earth is to try and be nice.

I mean, you should try and be nice obviously but you are not going to soy latte your way outta this my dudes.

Telodzrum ,

> is anarcho-communist

> accuses others of lacking systemic insight

mino ,
@mino@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m unsure what you mean by this. Would you be willing to elaborate?

Tartas1995 ,

They probably read 2 words that they don’t like.

I like the idealism in communism and I have been thinking about how to implement communism without very authoritarian structures, and the anarchist way seems to be the only way, but I don’t see how it would be able to sustain our current lifestyle and amount of people. Exploitation of dependencies without authoritarian structures seems unavoidable to me and avoiding dependencies would probably require that people provide themselves with the resources ; which requires more labor and resources. As of right now, I don’t see a flawless system. (that includes capitalism)

So personally I think, saying that the other people have a bad systemic insight in the context of any general ideology is ungranted.

Cowbee , (edited )
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

At what point does a structure become authoritarian? There are numerous Anarchist and Marxist propositions for how to structure a Socialist and eventually Communist society, so if there’s a definitive cutoff point for you you can find something to research.

What leftist theory have you read? Not as a “read more theory!” Snark, but more so I can give recs based on your answer to the authoritarian question posed in the last paragraph.

Tartas1995 ,

Honestly I am not well-read on leftist theory as in formal education. I look into things that I have encountered and think for myself. I would appreciate new ideas and things to look into.

I appreciate the call out on my vagueness in regards of authoritarian structures. Thanks for that.

It isn’t as much a concrete point like “having a police”, but rather the human nature. I see a lot of protective behavior in people. The idea of communism is a sacrificing one in the sense that you give some of yours to get more for everyone. As a system will teach people within the system that the system is good. It is expected that people will be generally protective of the system. So sacrificing some freedoms for the protection of the system seems like a very normal evolution of those ideals. And you don’t need to worry as the system is good which is why you are protecting it. So over time, just like under any hierarchical system, the power will move towards the “core” of the system. Under capitalism the wealthy and under communism the state. Under communism, protecting the system will have a strong hand and will move the power to the “core”. The “core” is the state. the system and the state are extremely similar. So the state will behave as if an Attack on them is an Attack on the system. Justifying additional force and moving power into the core. Under somewhat authoritarian capitalism, we can observe that behavior quite clearly. But the state and the core isn’t as similar and an “attack” on the “core” isn’t an Attack on the state. Creating the shit that we can observe today under capitalism. Where the state are corrupted by the core while pretending to not be and fighting against the elements of the core that haven’t paid them. In communism, the power goes to the state and the state happily accepts it, turning it more and more authoritarian over time.

So from my pov, authoritarian Systems are an issue but are also seemingly required to protect the system and it’s people. Capitalism sucks as it kinda assume hierarchy and “sneaks” exploitation in. But a authoritarian state acts a little bit as a counter force to the “core”. (While a full on authoritarian state will of course take control over the “core”) While any liberal state, enables the “core” to move more power to itself quicker. Communism is much better in regards of assuming hierarchy as it doesn’t. But an even slightly authoritarian state with communism places the “core” and the state together as a unite without a real counter force and will eventually be very authoritarian. An liberal communistic System would avoid hierarchy and by that protect itself from placing the “core” in the hands of the state, but it would live itself vulnerable by “small” actors trying to build an hierarchy as people generally like to do, and enables “small” local exploitation.

I just don’t see a way for any of them to not fail. Currently I believe that the violence of the public is the only way to reset the failing systems. That violence is just usually a little late and not just, fair or merciful. Leading to a lot of unjust pain and suffering.

I don’t see how to escape this shit.

Please call me out on my shit take. Thanks.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I think you have done a lot of thinking, but haven’t really engaged much with Marxism or Anarchism with regards to philisophy.

For Marxism, check out Socialism: Utopian and Scientific by Engels.

For Anarchism, The Conquest of Bread by Kropotkin is good.

The “Human Nature” issue is one that every leftist movement has had to engage with and “solve.”

Tartas1995 ,

It is true that I haven’t really engaged with Marxism and/or anarchism beyond the basics. I can look into it, thanks.

Out of curiosity, do you think I have a point? What would be your critic? I don’t want to take your time, so only respond if you feel like it. I understand if you don’t have the time.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I think you have a point, yes, though I disagree with it personally. That isn’t to take away from your thought process or personal experiences or evaluations. The why of that disagreement takes a good long while to explain adequately, but I’ll do my best.

For starters, though I identify myself chiefly as an anti-sectarian Leftist, I do ultimately find myself agreeing more with Marxism than Anarchism. Just my own personal conclusions after learning and reading theory. I try not to only give Marxist recommendations because a comrade is a comrade, and the reason I am anti-sectarian is because I believe we need to build a mass workers’ movement of any sort before we can get to debating the finer details, though I still agree more with Marxist organizational methods in the short term.

It isn’t as much a concrete point like “having a police”, but rather the human nature. I see a lot of protective behavior in people. The idea of communism is a sacrificing one in the sense that you give some of yours to get more for everyone. As a system will teach people within the system that the system is good. It is expected that people will be generally protective of the system. So sacrificing some freedoms for the protection of the system seems like a very normal evolution of those ideals. And you don’t need to worry as the system is good which is why you are protecting it.

This is extremely close to Marx’s Historical Materialism! That’s why I recommended Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, actually. The core concept is that environments shape people, who then reshape their environments, which then reshape the people who again reshape their environments. Very cool to see you get close to it!

So over time, just like under any hierarchical system, the power will move towards the “core” of the system. Under capitalism the wealthy and under communism the state. Under communism, protecting the system will have a strong hand and will move the power to the “core”. The “core” is the state. the system and the state are extremely similar. So the state will behave as if an Attack on them is an Attack on the system. Justifying additional force and moving power into the core.

Yes and no. My primary criticism of this section is that it doesn’t specifically analyze how this consolidation happens. It can happen, but may still be designed against. More later.

Under somewhat authoritarian capitalism, we can observe that behavior quite clearly. But the state and the core isn’t as similar and an “attack” on the “core” isn’t an Attack on the state. Creating the shit that we can observe today under capitalism. Where the state are corrupted by the core while pretending to not be and fighting against the elements of the core that haven’t paid them.

No real disagreements here. I would say it’s pretty accurate and similar to what other leftists have stated, if in different language.

In communism, the power goes to the state and the state happily accepts it, turning it more and more authoritarian over time.

This is what I tend to take issue with. Under Capitalism, the State is a vehicle by which the bourgeoisie suppresses the Proletariat. This State is weilded by the Bourgeoisie, as the Bourgeoisie have all of the power, thus the will of the few oppresses the many.

However, what happens if the majority democratically operate this State? It has power, yes, but properly designed and democratically operated, it does not necessarily stand to reason that it would result in oppression of the majority like Capitalism. That’s why I asked for specifics, actually!

So from my pov, authoritarian Systems are an issue but are also seemingly required to protect the system and it’s people.

Marxists entirely agree with this, but believe that once Capitalism is thoroughly erradicated, there is nothing to protect against, and thus no need for standing armies or other such dangerous elements. Until then, however, some form of State is necessary to protect the revolution, though it must be controlled by the Workers.

Capitalism sucks as it kinda assume hierarchy and “sneaks” exploitation in.

No real “disagreement,” other than I don’t actually believe Capitalism sneaks anything, it just convinces Workers the alternatives are worse.

But a authoritarian state acts a little bit as a counter force to the “core”. (While a full on authoritarian state will of course take control over the “core”) While any liberal state, enables the “core” to move more power to itself quicker. Communism is much better in regards of assuming hierarchy as it doesn’t. But an even slightly authoritarian state with communism places the “core” and the state together as a unite without a real counter force and will eventually be very authoritarian. An liberal communistic System would avoid hierarchy and by that protect itself from placing the “core” in the hands of the state, but it would live itself vulnerable by “small” actors trying to build an hierarchy as people generally like to do, and enables “small” local exploitation.

I am not sure a follow. What is an “authoritarian Communist state” and what is a “liberal Communist state?” How are they mechanically different, other than labels?

I just don’t see a way for any of them to not fail. Currently I believe that the violence of the public is the only way to reset the failing systems. That violence is just usually a little late and not just, fair or merciful. Leading to a lot of unjust pain and suffering.

Marxists and Anarchists both agree that Revolution is necessary.

I don’t see how to escape this shit.

A mass worker movement, comrade!

Please call me out on my shit take. Thanks.

Not stupid at all, in my opinion. There’s a lot of thought there, but I believe this thought could be much sharper and more pointed if you engaged with theory. Even if you disagree with much of it, by connecting your thoughts to the collective works of centuries of leftists and their findings, you can come to find agreement with other leftists and organize.

Did that answer your questions?

BlackRoseAmongThorns ,

Friend I’m not a friend of liberals myself but can we please not use ableistic terms that end with “-tard”?

Reserve that shit for the right wing

blaine ,

Tards are gonna tard. Thanks for the laugh.

mino ,
@mino@lemmy.ml avatar

Ok, even though I know this will make no difference to ‘you people’ (sorry just cannot help myself xD).

In this case I choose to use this specific word because it’s so obviously a dogwhistle for right wing extremists that in the context of this meme I think it’s funny, since my actual stance is neither authoritarian or rightwing.

I don’t seriously mean to perpetuate negative stereotypes with regards to people with mental handicaps.

Just as a curiosity, are you by any chance from the US? I just cannot imagine anyone from Europe making such a big deal about a joke like this, let alone use the term ableist.

I guess my brain has just rotted as a result of a few decades of being on the internet. Inside i’m still an edgy teen apparently. No actual offense meant :)

BlackRoseAmongThorns ,

I get it, i know how it is. I’m an Israeli anarchist, you can tell by a previous post and my user name.

I’m making a bit of a fuss over it because i find this trend within myself, having grown up in a nationalist family and a religious school, i tend to say those words as instinct as well and am trying to unlearn this behavior.

I grew up as an edgy teen as well so i guess i can relate, but now I’m intp young adulthood and trying to be better to not repel potential friends.

mino ,
@mino@lemmy.ml avatar

That sounds like a worthy and potentially wholesome effort indeed. I would just like to say that I think sincerity is more important than seriousness. Best of luck to you my friend.

Much respect for being an anarchist in Israel btw, especially in these interesting times.

Solidarity from The Netherlands.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t like libtards.

You can just call them liberals. You don’t need to meld the term to a slur.

I mean, you should try and be nice obviously

By shaving the first two letters off an r-bomb? Come on, guy. I get what you’re saying, but this is an awful way to phrase it.

blaine ,

r-bomb? I had to do a double-take. Are we not allowed to call removed people removed anymore? LOL

Cryophilia ,

Libtards

Is a right wing fascist term. I don’t think you’re an anarcho-communist. I think you’re a right wing pretending to be leftist to try to suppress the Democratic vote. You guys have tells.

cley_faye ,

Software developers are staying silent on this one.

Tartas1995 ,

But I like my libs… Often enough produced with a pretty communistic and anti-authoritarian mindset… (And too often, lack of support for the workers… Ups) But I like them.

BlackRoseAmongThorns ,

Only good library is the standard library, packages are much better 😤

Katana314 ,

“We’d like for our software to ThingDo. Our team has estimated 4 weeks for this work. What’s your estimate?”
“Wait, you want to write it from scratch? Why not just plug in ThingDoer library?”
“…ah, right. Damn libs.”

revlayle ,

I thought I was in programmer humor for a sec when I first saw the image, then I died a little bit

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes, leftists absolutely know what the word “liberal” means. It refers to a pro-Capitalist ideology centered around the idea of individual freedoms via private property rights.

Leftists disagree that allowing private property creates a freer population, and understand that Liberalism is the dominant ideology in developed Capitalist nations.

febra ,

Republicans are also liberals. At least in the true sense of the word. So it’s low-key funny when they use the term liberal as an insult.

I myself am not a liberal. Fiscally at least. Socially I’m a progressive.

mynameisigglepiggle ,

I’m just excited to see what happens when they find out their PC has been invaded by libs.

And then proceeds to own them by deleting them all

Cryophilia ,

In American political terminology, “liberal” means a different thing than in Europe. It implies being left-wing on social issues. Republicans by definition cannot be liberals (in the American sense of the term).

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

It would be like saying “it’s funny when Americans say they’re going to ‘wear their boot’, how are you going to wear part of your car?”

They are using a different definition of the word, and pretending they aren’t is being wilfully ignorant at best. Pretending the other definition doesn’t exist just serves to alienate people who might actually agree with you.

glouriousgouda ,

Do any of them know what the >word “liberal” actually means?

No. Most barely know what a “word” is.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

wait until you learn about fiscally liberal vs socially liberal.

Godric ,

Who doesn’t hate those dang rightwingers, The Liberals?

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/7f5a4fde-1238-4a94-b640-2d46207f17ba.jpeg

grrgyle ,

Just throw workers owning the means of production on there and we’ve got a stew real progressive.

AVincentInSpace ,

yes but you don’t participate in riots and vote for joe biden instead of third party, therefore you are no better than transphobes

/s if it wasn’t obvious

a_wild_mimic_appears ,

to be fair, the word “liberal” has lost its meaning in the US, because there no differentiation between economic liberalism and social liberalism. the guy in the meme would be a classic socialist in europe. we do have liberals here too, but they are the economic liberalism-type and more in line with the US-Republicans in economic questions, like tax cuts for the rich and businesses.

retrospectology ,
@retrospectology@lemmy.world avatar

It’s as meaningless as any words that hang on the notion that there’s a “spectrum”.

You either you accept what works and fosters human well being and liberty, adjusting your politics accordingly to reality as we learn more about the world, or you’re conservative, a fundementally irrational denial of reality.

This is why seemingly different groups like Marxists and neo-nazis end up at the same place ultimately; they’re unwilling to give up on failed ideas. It doesn’t matter what label one applies, if you’re still trying failed ideas after they’ve produced untold amounts of harm then you’re just on one road to fascism or another.

It’s a binary, not a spectrum.

a_wild_mimic_appears ,

Lol thats great, i came under a “biden bad”-post just a few hours ago to the same conclusion. the best friend of a left-authoritarian isn’t anyone on the left wing, its an right-authoritarian.

i’m a socialist with anarchism as an ideal in some aspects, and for quite a while i couldn’t understand why anyone on the left side of the spectrum would actively lobby against biden in the upcoming election until i realized that.

retrospectology ,
@retrospectology@lemmy.world avatar

Biden literally supports genocide, so it is reasonable for people to not want to support him even if it comes at a cost to themselves. If you’re unable to understand that, even if you disagree, I very much doubt you are aligned with the kind of goals you purport.

cmbabul ,

You clearly don’t understand that America as an institution has supported genocide your entire life and longer, it’s just more in your face right now than it’s ever been, Biden may support genocide but so did Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Ike, Truman, FDR, Hoover, and on back. This isn’t new shit and yes we desperately need better, but the genocide of the people you are arguing for will continue either way, but it will be faster with Trump. If you feel this strongly about stoping the US support of genocide regardless of who is president, I suggest you look into direct action, if you don’t have the backbone for that shut the fuck up.

Your vote isn’t a declaration of loyalty, love, support, or condoning. It never has been in this country, what it is is a small expression of which of the two directions presented to you is preferable. In this iteration we are presented with the maintenance of the status quo, which is fucking so stupid and I in every other circumstance would fight tooth and nail against it, but the other option is authoritarian christofascism which will culminate in at the very minimum of a constitutional crisis when blue states refuse to enforce the Gilead bullshit while thousands are murdered in red states. You want to stop genocide in Gaza? Me too, it’s gonna be hard to do that when there’s a cleansing happening in the US.

It’s a fucked up system, I hate it too, but again the only other option than these two ancient assholes is direct action and that has a lot of other consequences even if they are worth it in the long run

retrospectology ,
@retrospectology@lemmy.world avatar

So I’m going to just tell you this; what you’re doing above is not convincing anyone.

Given that factual reality, you then have to ask yourself, as someone who probably likes to believe that you’re pragmatic and worldly; if your strategy for convincing millions of voters to support Democrats inspite of their increasingly fascist, right-wing tendencies is not working, what are your other practical options for actually helping Biden win.

And remember, this might involve changing your politics, or getting off the fence and actually doing something etc.

In any case, it’s a rhetorical question, since I’ll be blocking you. Think about it though, think about 2016 and how badly your political strategy failed this country then. Consider changing.

cmbabul ,

Lol

Cryophilia ,

Leftists literally threatening the country with a fascist takeover if Dems don’t bow to their impossible demands.

We’re not trying to win your vote. We’re trying to stop you from infecting more undecideds. You people are rotten and need to be cut out of the process before you kill us all.

retrospectology , (edited )
@retrospectology@lemmy.world avatar

What? Biden is the one playing chicken with our democracy, all he has to do is not give the middle finger to people who want him to stop funding a genocide. It’s not like anyone is even expecting him to fight for healthcare or climate change or anything, literally just the very bare minimum of not sending money and arms to kill children and people would stomach voting for him. But no, you won’t even compromise on that.

You honestly sound like you don’t actually believe in the democratic process at all “Vote how I want you to or you don’t deserve a vote.”

No wonder you guys and the Republicans go together like hand and glove.

Cryophilia ,

Gaslight <---- you are here

Obstruct

Project

retrospectology ,
@retrospectology@lemmy.world avatar

You people are rotten and need to be cut out of the process before you kill us all

Cryophilia ,

There’s a huge differentiation between social and economic liberalism! Liberals in the US means almost exclusively social liberalism. Liberal in the us is progressivism.

Economic liberalism is a Republican position, not a Democrat one.

@Cowbee I promise this is the last one, I’ve made my point

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

You’ve made it clear that you believe words do not have meanings, and are just vibes, yes.

Cryophilia ,

300 million people having the same vibe

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

9 billion having the same vibe as me.

Cryophilia ,

Multiple definitions of words can exist. When 300 million people agree on a definition, that’s a valid definition.

Also, the RIDICULOUS ARROGANCE of Europeans never fails to astound me. 9 billion people? You really do think you represent the whole world lol. News flash, the colonial era is over, you lost your empires. Just stop, you’re embarrassing yourself.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m not a European, lol. The entire world and the entirety of academia understands Liberalism the way most people on Lwmmy use it, ie to refer to a pro-Capitalist ideology.

Cryophilia ,

That makes it even more sad you’re simping for a colonialist view

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Are you saying the US isn’t a colonialist project?

Cryophilia ,

Not really on a scale comparable to Europe, no.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Damn, guess the Indigenous peoples were so thoroughly eliminated you forgot about them.

Cryophilia ,

Yeah it was more genocidal than colonial

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

It was literally founded on settler-colonialism. Just because this resulted in such a profound and extensive destruction of countless peoples that are nearly wiped out today doesn’t make it less colonial.

Cryophilia ,

That’s not colonialism. It didn’t involve any colonies.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

There were many colonies, lol. There was also Settler-Colonialism. Read about US history some time.

Cryophilia ,

Yeah, and of the actual colonies America had, they were a tiny size/number compared to European ones. All of India, most of China, all of South America lol

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I never said European countries were not colonizers, all I stated was that the US is a genocidal settler-colonial state and you can only do whataboutisms.

Cryophilia ,

I said,

Not really on a scale comparable to Europe, no.

And I’m the one who said the US was genocidal, not you. Don’t steal my woke-points, win your own fair and square.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

You don’t get woke points, you’re a conservative, lol.

Cryophilia ,

I’m a progressive, not that the distinction matters to you. You see everyone right of Lenin as a conservative.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Nah, you’re directly concerned with attacking leftists and redefining words. Any anti-leftist can be considered a reactionary, but that word might not make sense to you.

Cryophilia ,

Being anti-leftist =/= being reactionary

I understand we define them differently, but do you fundamentally disagree with the spectrum of “Leftist (revolutionary) – Progressive – Conservative – Reactionary” ?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes, I fundamentally disagree with that.

Rejecting Socialism and the progression towards Worker Ownership is Reactionary behavior. You identify as a progressive, but you oppose all Socialism, and support Liberal Capitalism with robust social safety nets (unless you’ve pivoted).

You are therefore a reactionary.

Cryophilia ,

How would you distinguish between Manchin Democrats, McCain Republicans, and MAGAs? I would call the former two “conservative” and the latter “reactionary”, but if you consider all of them to be reactionary, what labels would you use to differentiate them?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

They are indeed all reactionary, though I would use Liberal and Fascist. All 3 are conservative liberals, and all 3 reject leftist movement, but MAGA in particular is a fascist movement.

Cryophilia ,

Ok that makes sense. So Elizabeth Warren vs Joe Biden vs Joe Manchin? Any differences there?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Minor. All 3 are liberals and all 3 are reactionary. Getting into the weeds for specifics won’t really change their overall labels.

They all support “current system + minor tweaks,” and the “current system” part does heavier lifting than “minor tweaks.”

Cryophilia ,

Is there anyone who is neither a leftist nor a reactionary? Or do you think everyone has to be either for worker ownership (leftist) or against it (reactionary)?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s a spectrum, unintentional anti-leftism due to a lack of information isn’t as reactionary as fascism, but both are reactionary.

Generally, you either support moving on to the next mode of production, or you reject that movement.

Cryophilia ,

Got it. I still reject your central premise of hard labels regardless of real-world context, but everything you’re saying makes sense and is internally consistent within that premise.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

We disagree on a ton, but I don’t believe either of us have been internally inconsistent.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

You’re confusing liberalism with social progressivism, and leftism with social programs.

At the end of the day, Capitalism is right wing, Socialism is left.

Godric ,

👍

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/619d7184-18cf-426d-8251-121a21c97605.jpeg

retrospectology ,
@retrospectology@lemmy.world avatar

Not what your voting record demonstrates if you’ve been voting for liberal establishment figures.

Remember a politician’s talk < actions and campaign finance.

oatscoop ,

https://midwest.social/pictrs/image/1f81f01c-cd30-4d83-9bfe-b527443aab84.webp

egonallanon ,

I am the only true leftist. The rest of you are posers and/or feds.

orrk ,

look, tankies aren’t leftists, they are fascists wearing the skin of the lefties they killed

BakerBagel ,

Fascism isn’t just authoritarianism. It is a certain set of conditions that can essentially be boiled down to as “colonial violence against the imperial core” but it is incredibly more complicated than that.

Words have meaning, and you should look up those meanings before you start just throwing them around.

kameecoding ,

that’s a stupid definition of fascism.

KarfiolosHus ,

The political spectrum is not linear, but circular and fascism and communism sit on the join but with different lie.

Coming from a country that experienced both several times in the past century, I hope the real people tankies would just shut up and move to Russia to learn a life lesson.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

fascism and communism sit on the join but with different lie.

Don’t leave us hanging.

orrk ,

nope, the Marx Leninist idea of a vanguard party doesn’t even purport to be communism, rather the idea that you must go through a phase of state capitalism to grow the nation’s capital after a revolution (revolutions tend to destroy capital) before you can enact communism, it’s just that during the age of ML Fascism was the popular new political ideology, and Lenin did heavily base the idea of the vanguard party on a lot of the same basic understanding as the fascists did.

and of course the fascists did what they do and killed the lefties

Cryophilia ,

Fascism has nothing to do with colonial vs imperial, wtf

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Can’t have fascism without a strong national identity and an activist military.

Cryophilia ,

Which again is an entirely separate thing from colonialism. The two may go together but they’re not necessarily linked in any way.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Which colonial power lacks a politically influential profit-seeking military?

Cryophilia ,

Who cares? They’re not related to fascism

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

When the military returns to the imperial core, it’s fascism

Cryophilia ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/cb4eb8bd-be68-44ed-bd92-4475c3e2fec5.jpeg

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Amusing take, considering the source material

orrk ,

Words DO have meaning, and you just butchered so many of them it’s not even funny.

fundamentally, fascism is the belief that social hierarchies are not only natural but preferable to any other social system that attempts to disrupt said natural order, all other aspects of fascism stem from this one line of understanding

BakerBagel ,

Social hierarchies are always going to be present, even anarchists believe that. Fascism just assumes that they are natural and inherent, while leftists beleive that those hierarchies should be voluntary or chosen by the people.

Just becauae you haven’t done any political reading doesn’t mean i don’t know what words read.

orrk ,

the entire idea of the progressive moment is to abolish these hierarchies, then again the American “leftist” understanding is so fucked at this point that I can see you believing this, as most “communists” in the states are tankies, that would also explain the horrible misunderstanding of fascism along imperial lines, because you literally don’t have any other larger critical lens in the states, as most of you aren’t upset about the existence of hierarchies, but just have the feeling that you are not in your deserved spot of said hierarchy

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

tankies aren’t leftists

Counterpoint:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/09dfb59a-56d3-4a4a-a31a-08ba34dbe3ca.jpeg

cook_pass_babtridge ,

Hey, I’m neither of those. I’m an op!

ZILtoid1991 ,

Would him putting on the Darth Vader armor be an analogue to many “toxic” leftists using doxxing sites dominated by the far-right to try and ruin the lives of people that aren’t 100% into Stalin?

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

putting on the Darth Vader armor

doxxing sites dominated by the far-right

Yes. Becoming an unkillable cyborg space wizard and outting someone paying for a message board full of Nazi copypasta are the same.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

The Other Kind of Leftists

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/7264fb4f-d25f-44a7-82b5-659ca980cace.jpeg

mamotromico ,

Please tell me this tweet isn’t real

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1008013111058526209?l…

mamotromico ,

Godammit

go_go_gadget ,

“Authoritarian” would require that we, you know, have some authority. Which we don’t.

Neolibs do. And they just used it to arrest a bunch of students and people protesting against a genocide.

You all project so fucking hard it’s ridiculous.

AVincentInSpace ,

“Authoritarian” would require that we, you know, have some authority.

No, it would require you to support the idea that there should be some central authority telling people what they should be doing. Which you do.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

That’s pretty much every non-anarchist ideology then, no?

go_go_gadget ,

Lol okay bud. Then tell me how you justify 44 Democrat senators, 36 Republican senators and Joe Biden working together to block the rail strike? I can’t wait to observe your abilities as a mental contortionist.

AVincentInSpace ,

I don’t. That’s precisely why I’m against authoritarianism.

go_go_gadget ,

Ok. Well I was against that too so maybe we agree on more than I assumed.

pjwestin , (edited )
@pjwestin@lemmy.world avatar

I’m on the left, but I’m far from a communist, much less an authoritarian one, and I 100% use lib or liberal as an insult. I think to most people younger than 50, Liberal refers to a certain type of Democratic voter. They’ll hang a BLM sign in their window but support NIMBY policies that keep people of color out of their neighborhoods. They’ll talk a good game about labor rights and unions, but still go to Starbucks and throw a shit-fit if their order is wrong. They cared very deeply about Iraq and Guantanamo when Bush was President, but stopped bringing it up once Obama was in office.

The Third Way Democrats of the 90s basically turned American Liberals into Neo-Liberals. I will still support them when I have to, since they hold all the levers of power over the only ostensibly progressive party in America, and not siding with them at this point basically ensures the rise of fascism, but I have no love for Liberals.

ZombiFrancis ,

I tend to see the derogatory ‘Liberal’ and moreso ‘Lib’ used for Neo-liberals and those supporting the neoliberal policies that have dominated the last few generations.

I otherwise see it used in the context of the phrase “scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds” which is pithy but tracks with history and typically the more antagonistic usage. It is almost entirely used to provoke a reaction from the ‘libs’ it is directed at, accuracy notwithstanding.

With context it is almost always pretty self explanatory which is being used.

GnomeKat ,
@GnomeKat@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Lemmy going 2 seconds without complaining about tankies challenge impossible…

this website has defo been infiltrated by right-wing groups

theareciboincident ,

Liberals pulling out a Marian Webster definition and acting like they’re the holy good guys while making no effort to understand what liberalism even is…

Is such a liberal move I’m not even surprised anymore.

Enjoy your right wing echo chamber, real funny how that always happens when liberals and fascists get in a room together.

AVincentInSpace ,

ah yes, lemmy, the “biden is just as right wing as trump, harm reduction isn’t real, and if you don’t vote third party in 2024 you’re a genocide enabler” website, famously a right wing echo chamber

daltotron ,

this website has defo been infiltrated by right-wing groups

I mean it was kind of inevitable on lemmy.world, right? An ostensibly centrist instance that kind of tries to brand itself as the “mainstream” socially acceptable lemmy instance. It was basically liberal from the start, you know? Appealing to users flooding in from the reddit exodus. The more explicitly leftist influenced things are going to act more, you know, liberal with the banning out of self-preservation, and so are inevitably going to kind of like, paradoxically, cordon themselves off into little, I mean, basically echo chambers, so they’re not going to appeal to a kind of broader audience as much.

It’s all kind of inevitable from the structure of the site, I think.

Cryophilia ,

I mean if everyone right of communism is “right wing”, sure

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