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als ,

It’s a shame because I agree with them in principle (I don’t feel like a UK citizen, I feel like a human) but they seem to lack awareness of reality. Yes, the government is overbearing and an unjustified power in your life, no that doesn’t mean you can pretend they don’t exist and not face consequences. I wish it were that easy

arc ,

The best thing about sovereign citizens is they’re the only ones not in on the joke.

BonesOfTheMoon OP ,

And they so persistently do not understand why their BS doesn’t work.

CheeseNoodle ,

Honestly their BS does kind of work they just seem unable to grasp that all the things they’re saying also apply to everyone else. They don’t have to aknowledge their electricity providers authority to charge them for electricity and the electric company doesn’t have to keep supplying it. Its like some kind of extreme narcisicm.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

'Cept in most locales you have to maintain your home’s “habitability status” to not get it condemned, which requires having a functional electrical supply. And usually also working plumbing, heat, some manner of cooking apparatus, and a refrigerator.

“Muh Freedumb!” aside, these types of code requirements were as I understand it at least initially put into place to prevent slumlords from charging rent for an “apartment” that has access to none of the above.

Anyhow, if you really don’t want to pay electric bills it’s really not too tough to get yourself some solar panels or something. Somehow that never occurs to these people. There are counties out in the boondocks where you are permitted by law to live fully off the grid if you feel like it, so maybe they ought to move there and quit bothering everybody with their nonsense.

echodot ,

I think water and sewage are required but I don’t think electricity is because a property is technically habitable without power. As long as there is not a vulnerable person confirmed living at the address. I mean it all seems a bit arbitrary, but apparently those are the rules.

I think it’s mostly about making it unpleasant for squatters without violating their human rights too much. It straddles the line but not too badly.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

This is another one of them there varies by state/county/city things. Where I live you must be connected to the grid. This causes problems for people who don’t want to be connected to the grid, i.e. they have more than enough solar or windmill and battery capacity to not require it from a functional standpoint. But the county forbids you from not paying the local electricity monopoly their monthly bribe.

This is relatively recent – as of the last 4 or 5 years or so. The power company now helpfully charges a “connection fee” if you use 0 kWh, which started happening exactly at the same time the law was passed to make it illegal not to be connected to them. I can’t help but conclude that these two facts are not coincidental.

NigelFrobisher ,

If these people are not citizens of any country, they’d have to be deported to International Waters for not holding a visa right?

Cypher ,

I know you’re just making a joke but statelessness is actually a huge headache for both the individual and Governments in dealing with them.

www.unhcr.org/about-unhcr/…/stateless-people

AlexisFR ,
@AlexisFR@jlai.lu avatar

Well the ocean doesn’t discriminate.

scoobford ,

Stateless people (not this whacko) are often stateless through no fault of their own. Shifting borders, oversight in government policy, or legal discrimination have deprived them of the rights and privileges they are entitled to.

Pretty much wherever they go, they have a hard time getting ID, enrolling in school, finding legal housing or work, etc.

KevonLooney ,

About 100K Armenians were just made stateless and kicked out of Azerbaijan recently. You didn’t hear about it because of Israel and no one cares about Azerbaijan.

These were people who predated the Soviet Union, became part of the Soviet Union, outlasted the Soviet Union, and then wanted their own country. They were living on land claimed by Azerbaijan but they understandably thought “That’s a made up country. They just made it up. We can make up our own country.”

Unfortunately, “living somewhere for a hundred years” doesn’t count for much today. So Azeris kicked them out of their homes and they had to leave to Armenia. Azerbaijan is now eyeing Armenian territory and these people have to apply for Armenian citizenship, through no real fault of their own.

Empricorn ,

“Not a US citizen”

Okay, so GTFO if you’re renouncing your citizenship. And don’t use any public roads or services as you’re leaving…

shneancy ,

doesn’t US charge you for giving up your citizenship too?

Trainguyrom ,

Yup, its an old Civil War era law for folks who tried to avoid dying in the Civil War by moving to Canada. Reasoning was, if you wanted to draft dodge you could support the war financially instead. Then during the early 2000s as folks who graduated college at the wrong time and ended up more college debt than they can ever pay off started moving abroad to escape it, they increased the fee and took other steps to make renouncing more difficult since expats were renouncing their citizenship to stop owing taxes in the US

uis ,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

ended up more college debt than they can ever pay off started moving abroad to escape it, they increased the fee

Short version: USA wanted slaves

to stop owing taxes in the US

I’m not a lawyer and I’m not from US, but I’m pretty sure this is not how it works.

qwrty ,
@qwrty@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not a lawyer and I’m not from US, but I’m pretty sure this is not how it works.

Ah but it is. The US is, as far as I know, the only country who taxes its citizens who are living abroad. And yes, it is as stupid and shitty as it sounds.

superduperenigma ,

I DO NOT KNOW WHO YOU ARE

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR INTENT

Bullshit. You know that mail is regarding the child support payments you’re trying to weasel your way out of.

BonesOfTheMoon OP ,

They are always asking how to “discharge” child support on the sovcit groups.

JustZ ,
@JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

Is there no counter narrative of unsatisfied customers who chime in on every post to say “I tried this nonsense in family court and the judge took my kids gave my ex sole custody!”

Anticorp ,

One of those was a census. How tiny is their world if they don’t know what a census is, and who sends them?

DampCanary ,
@DampCanary@lemmy.world avatar

What is census? And who’s sending it?

(asks non usa-an)

Crack0n7uesday ,

If your serious, it’s something we do every few years to see how many people live in the US (like how many people live at your house), what race and gender you all are, income and that sort of thing. Basically it just gives the government a general idea of how many people live in the US, whether or not they are citizens and other social and economic shit. You fill them out anonymously and it only effects general population reports and stuff, it doesn’t really effect you personally. It’s pretty much only used for statistical purposes.

I think the MDHS one is Mississippi child support and this “sovereign citizen” is a deadbeat parent (surprise).

expr ,

Out of curiosity, does your country not have a census? I would have guessed every country does to have accurate information about their populace.

anarchy79 ,
@anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

No that was digitalized like twenty years ago.

uis ,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

How? Is it China? I can’t imagine real digitalized census without China level of surveillance.

limelight79 ,

I, uh, happen to be an expert in censuses.

The US of course tries to get everyone to respond, and sends people out to follow up with people who don’t respond, such as this sovereign citizen in the original post. (The picture is of the 2020 Census envelope and as such is ~4 years old, by the way.)

Some European countries do an administrative records census, wherein they know who is in the country based on passport control, birth and death records, and so on. These censuses have the (admitted) flaw that someone who is in the country illegally would almost certainly not be counted, but on the flip side they are MUCH cheaper and faster than the US-style census. It’s basically just running an SQL query on the database.

Other countries do a mix of the two. Even the US uses administrative records sometimes, if good data is available, and they can’t get a response another way.

The US’s situation is more complex than many countries, because driver’s licenses (which serve as IDs) are issued by the individual states, not the federal government, and relatively few Americans ever get a passport. So, the closest things to a “master list” of people in the US that the government has are things like IRS and Social Security records - but those have flaws, too - for example, they don’t count legal visitors.

I do not know what China et al do to complete their censuses.

Neato ,
@Neato@ttrpg.network avatar

By and large, I think most of these people are just trying to get out of legal and financial obligations. I bet if a government agency sent them a check, they’d fucking cash it. But it’s when they’re required to pay money or complete the littlest forms that they balk. They are just bad scammers.

Lemminary ,

> Refuses to open letter

> I DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR INTENT

Ok, buddy.

dynamojoe ,

If they don’t open it they can’t have read it and therefore aren’t bound by what’s in it. <- sovcit logic

KevonLooney ,

I mean, that does work. Unless the letter is sent certified mail, it’s not guaranteed to arrive. It could be lost on the way so they can’t prove you got it.

Of course if you write all over it and post it online then you clearly got it.

Lifecoach5000 ,

“I DO NOT HAVE AN INTERNATIONAL TREATY WITH YOU” is about to be my go to line to get out of uncomfortable situations.

pearsaltchocolatebar ,

I still like, “YOU’RE NOT MY SUPERVISOR”

NegativeInf ,

“THIS IS NOT MY BEAUTIFUL WIFE”

GentlemanLoser ,

My God what have I done

Neato ,
@Neato@ttrpg.network avatar

I love this assertion by them. Because it’s them saying they are an independent nation. But they are living on or within the US’s declared borders and do not have a treaty as the American Indians do. Therefore they’d qualify as invaders or secessionist and the US military/immigration authorities should have jurisdiction to prosecute them. Afterall, this Sovereign Citizen is currently abroad in another country.

GuyDudeman ,
@GuyDudeman@lemmy.world avatar

The MDHS State Disbursement Unit is the Child Support department. Dude went nuts because he doesn’t want to pay child support. What a POS.

Garbanzo ,

I only agreed to get my dick wet, your child support contract is invalid

BonesOfTheMoon OP ,

One of their biggest things they’re always trying to do is “discharge” theur child support.

frickineh ,

Yeah they are. But fun fact, garnishments and liens work just as well without an INTERNATIONAL TREATY and a surprising number of these loons still work and own stuff.

Tar_alcaran ,

Yes but they’re their own country, and the USA needs to form a treaty to have say in their business, unless they’re “travelling” or receiving welfare or benefit in some other way

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

“I don’t have anything to do with that kid! Why should I have to pay child support?”

Unfortunately I know people like that in real life, who don’t seem to understand that the child support is largely because they want nothing to do with their kid

aidan ,

What if before birth they prove that they wanted the child aborted?

KevonLooney ,

That’s not how it works.

aidan ,

Of course not, I’m asking if that’s how it should work?

KISSmyOS ,

No, it should not. When two consenting adults have sex without protection, the resulting pregnancy shouldn’t be the sole problem of the woman.

aidan ,

She is the only one granted the choice to end the responsibility. The father is left with massive financial responsibility for 18 years, that the mother had the choice to prevent. This even occurs in cases of rape.

Malfeasant ,

If you can’t take the heat, better stay out of the kitchen…

Timecircleline ,

Child support isn’t meant to punish a parent that’s no longer in the child’s life. Even if thats the end result, it’s meant to support the child.

Because of the bodily autonomy argument there won’t be true equality surrounding pregnancy because nobody has (or should have) weight of decision of whether to carry the child except for the person who does so.

But if a child is brought into the world as a result, it needs to be supported. And that’s the responsibility of the parents- willing or not.

I think that if male birth control becomes safe and available it will be much closer to equality.

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

If they were going to want the baby aborted, they shouldn’t have had sex without a condom. You don’t get to cum inside someone and then tell them what to do with it. Your jizz, your problem.

aidan ,

So, do you oppose abortion in general?

expr ,

Obviously not. They’re saying that the person that gets pregnant gets to decide whether or not they want to abort. It’s not the decision of the sperm donor.

aidan ,

So, a mother has a choice to opt out of paying for a child if they can’t afford it. But a father is given the same choice.

splicerslicer ,

The mother clearly has a bigger stake in pregnancy than a father and I can’t believe this needs to be explained. Yes, women get to choose if they want to be mothers for a variety of complicated and nuanced reasons. For men they can simply choose to not raw dog a woman. Obviously it’s different if they were raped or their semen was stolen but those are much more rare cases.

expr ,

Yes. Everyone should have autonomy over their own bodies, especially when it’s a matter of something as major as pregnancy. Pregnancy is a medical condition, and the only person that should (legally) have any input in medical decision making for pregnancy is the person that’s pregnant.

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

The father made that choice when he decided it was a good idea to fuck without protection. You don’t get to undo mistakes you made by telling someone else to undergo a medical procedure they don’t want. It doesn’t matter if you realized your mistake the next day and started telling them to use plan B. You can not want a baby all you want, but the only thing that matters is, did you willingly play your part in making it?

thecrotch ,

The father made that choice when he decided it was a good idea to fuck without protection.

I agree with your basic argument, but this point in particular is dumb for 2 reasons

  • Unless the father is a rapist, they both decided to have unprotected sex
  • Condoms fail sometimes. Wearing one significantly reduces the likelihood of pregnancy but it’s hardly a pancea. Any competent sex-ed teacher should have explained that

That being said, there’s no ethical way to give a man control after conception and allowing them to bail on child support eould be detrimental to society. Single mothers have it hard enough already.

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

What a person does with their own body is entirely up to them. If you play your part in making that baby, and the person you came inside of plays their part too, you both have to pay for it. The sperm donor has one opportunity to opt out of being a parent, and that one opportunity is when they’re having sex.

aidan ,

What a person does with their own body is entirely up to them.

Yes, but when one person has the choice to not have a child, the other person can express their desire to not raise the child.

If you play your part in making that baby, and the person you came inside of plays their part too, you both have to pay for it.

Why?

The sperm donor has one opportunity to opt out of being a parent, and that one opportunity is when they’re having sex.

Why?

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar
  1. You can express your desire to not raise a child all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that you made a choice that led to that child being born.
  2. You both have to pay for it because you both made a decision to make it. Both parents have an obligation to provide support, and if one parent wants nothing to do with the kid, that support must be financial. “Why?” Because that kid costs money to raise, and the alternative is the state paying for your decision not to wrap it up. Like hell do I want my taxes paying for your one night stand.
  3. Because you can’t make medical decisions for someone else, your one and only opportunity to opt out of being a father is while you’re having sex. The only person who gets to decide whether or not to have an abortion is the pregnant party. If they opt not to, but you really, really want them to, then that sucks for you, but refer back to point 2.
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