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How to make the Threadiverse a nice place and effectively make it grow

tl;dr: Be excellent to each other, do something constructive here?

I'm not sure anymore where the Threadiverse is headed. (The Threadiverse being this threaded part of the Fediverse, i.e. Lemmy, MBin, PieFed, ...)
In my time here, I've met a lot of nice people and had meaningful conversations and learned lots of things. At the same time, it's always been a mixed bag. We've always had quite some argumentative people here, trolls, ... I've seen people hate on and yell at each other, and do all kinds of destructive things. My issue with that is: Negative behavior is disproportionately affecting the atmosphere. And I'd argue we have nowhere enough nice behavior to even that out.

I don't see Lemmy grow for quite some time now. Seems it's now leveling off at a bit less that 50k monthly active users. And I don't see how that'd change. I'm missing some clear vision/idea of where we want to be headed. And I miss an atmosphere that makes people want to join or stay here, of all of the places on the internet. The saying is: "If you don't go forwards you go backwards". I'm not sure if this applies... At least we're not shrinking anymore.

And I'm always unsure if the tone and atmosphere here changes subtly and gradually. I've always disagreed with a few dynamics here. But lately it feels like we're on the decline, at least to me. I occasionally keep an eye on the votes on my comments. And seems I'm getting fewer of them. Sometimes I reply to a post and not a single person interacts. Even OP seems to have abandoned their post moments after writing it. And also for nuanced and longer replies, I regularly don't get more than one or two upvotes. I think that used to be a bit better at some point. And I see the same thing happening with other peoples' comments. So it's not just me writing low-quality comments. What does work is stating simple truths. I regularly get some incoming votes with those. But my vision of this place isn't spreading simple truths, but have proper and meaningful discussions, learn things and new perspectives or just mingle with people or talk. But judging by the votes I observe, that isn't appreciated by the community here.

Another pet peeve of mine is the link aggregator aspect of Lemmy. I'd say at least 80% of Lemmy is about dumping some political (or tech) news articles. Lots of them don't generate any engagement. Lots of them are really low-effort. OP just dumps something somewhere, no body text added, no info about what's interesting about it. And people don't even read those articles. They just read the title and react (emotionally) to that. In the end probably neither OP nor the audience read the article and it's just littering the place. Burying and diminishing other, meaningful content. (With that said: There are also nice (news) discussions going on at the same time. And Lemmy is meant to be a link aggregator. It's just that my perception is: it's skewed towards low quality, low engagement and random noise.)

A few people here also don't really like political debate. And there's no escape from it here on Lemmy since so much revolves around that. And nowadays politics is about strong opinions, emotions and emotional reactions. And often limited to that. The dynamics of Lemmy reinforce the negative aspect of that, because the time when you're most incentivized to reply or react is, when it triggers some strong emotion in you, for example you strongly disagree with a comment and that makes you want to counter it and write your own opinion underneath. If you agree, you don't feel a strong emotion and you don't reply. And the majority of users seems to also forget to upvote in that case, as I lined out earlier. And we also don't write nuanced answers, dissect complex things and examine it from all angles. That's just effort and it's not as rewarding for the brain to do that as it is pointing out that someone is wrong. So it just fosters an atmosphere of being argumentative.

Prospect

I think we have several ways of steering the community:

  1. Technology: Features in the software, design choices that foster good behavior.
  2. Moderation: Give toxic people the boot, or delete content that drags down the place. Following: What remains is nice people and not adverse content.
  3. The community

I'd say 1 and 2 go without saying. (Not that everything is perfect with those...) But it really boils down to 3: The community. This is a fairly participatory place. We are the ones shaping the tone and atmosphere. And it's our place. It's kind of our obligation to care for it if we want to see it go somewhere. Isn't it?

So what's your vision of this place? Do you have some idea on where you'd like it to go? Practical ideas on how to achieve it?
Do you even agree with my perception of the dynamics here, and the implications and conclusions I came up with?

LibertyLizard ,

When I first joined Lemmy, I made a really big effort to make my interactions more positive than they were on Reddit. But the problem is that this required effort, and I am afraid over time my resolve might have eroded as the fediverse became just another online space instead of something new and distinct. This is a good reminder, but I wonder if this solution of just trying to be better is really sustainable for me or others? I’ll keep trying but we may need a more concrete change to get where we want to go.

I am curious if it’s time to evolve user engagement beyond up and downvotes. While they were relatively innovative at the time they were introduced, it’s been some years and we’re still here using the same system.

The biggest problem with voting as content curation is that people vote to communicate very different ideas and reactions in different circumstances. So people are sending the same signal to a well-researched, respectful but dissident perspective and to content that is rude, violent, hateful, incorrect etc.

This could be solved by allowing more diverse reactions. People will always want an agree or disagree button, so give them that. But we could also vote on how factual a post is, how polite a post is, how uplifting a post is, etc. We could then build algorithms that prioritize quality content instead of just the current popularity contest. Ideally I’d like multiple transparent algorithms that the user can choose from (or leave a default chosen by their instance) so that users can choose what kind of content is most valuable to them.

One concern is whether this would be too complicated for people to understand or engage with properly. I’d be curious to hear what others think: would this just devolve into upvotes and downvotes again or could this be a better system?

fluxion ,

Comments help. I feel like there are a lot of lurkers who’d engage more but a lot of posts never get any sort of comments so people are less likely to read/participate and it makes the place feel more empty than it actually is.

But I think back to posting on web forums and whatnot and it was always a fairly familiar set if folks and that’s not a bad thing so long as people are engaging.

anon6789 ,
@anon6789@lemmy.world avatar

I feel it is pretty stable here. I post every day, and it’s been a tad slower lately, much like I believe Blaze said, feels due to people going away for trips. Weekends are a decent bit slower, where usually they have been busy. That’s where I notice it the most. My subs are lower than at the start of the year, but they’re still going up slow but steady. Interactions are still steady, which is my main concern. As you’ve mentioned, people want to see that interaction. I don’t want to say my content is useless, because people don’t need owl pics and animal rescue facts every day, but I typically get 100+ likes per post, and a handful of comments.

The key I feel though, is I have the same people coming in regularly every day, or every other day, and they are also participating. They make the place look alive more than me just throwing things out there. But that is a specific thing I work on, as much as the post content itself. When people come and make comments, I give them my full attention. I talk back to them, I laugh at their jokes and puns, I take time to answer their questions, I pay attention to what content they like or don’t like, how I post links. I treat them like they were clients. And now in return, they see that the community is a fun place to hang, and they come back regularly, even though I’m not giving them anything they couldn’t find, but I am adding value to their days. I make them smile, I make them feel like their effort commenting matters, I make them feel like they motivate me to keep posting (because they do!), and I teach them about things they never expected to care about.

But it’s a lot of hard work! I try not to think about the time I put into this just for fun. Many of us have been here before the API exodus or before and have put in hours posting to nobody or a dozen people until we’ve built up momentum. Most people won’t even upvote, let alone comment or post, so it’s going to come in waves building up this place. You’re still in the wilderness here. We’re still pretty much the first wave of Fediverse settlers. We’re here while it is rough, setting the foundations of what will hopefully come, keeping us from fading to nothing. I don’t think new people appreciate that point. It’s not like 25% of Reddit broke off and came here with all the posters and the audience, we’re starting from scratch. I think what we have is amazing for a bunch of nobodies with no corporate cash. We’re all volunteers, building the social media we want to have. We should be proud of it, no matter what stage it’s at.

Moderation is an area I feel could be stronger. Most threads are pretty good, but some could use a bit more reigning in. Part of the problem I see with that though, is the vocal part of the community is already hating on “heavy handed mods”, and you missed all the trashing of Beehaw for doing what I considered to be appropriate moderation. The Fed is full of a pretty diverse group of people. I talk to people from multiple countries, and the amount of LGBT I’ve gotten to get insight from has been amazing. It’s really helped me grow in my understanding of some things just being around all these people. But we need to ensure everyone is treated equally and respectfully, and there are many that want to bring Reddit behavior over here, and it’s up to the mods and commenters to decide if that’s what we want or not. I don’t want it, but many see no issue. I’m glad when people comment on it, because if people just accept it without speaking up, no one will know.

There is a lot of good here, and even with 50k users, there’s going to be much more mid and crap than gold, but it’s here. Your comments look good, and you seem to stick to things you enjoy and avoid some that drag you down, and it’s important to notice your own behavior if you click stuff that is going to annoy you. I hit delete on a lot of comments when I wade into some of these topics. Some stuff I just don’t want to get involved in, especially as someone that is at least somewhat “known” around here now and is too lazy to make an alt. But I remind myself I’m here to have fun, and if I want news without the potential drama, I’ll leave here and go to AP or whatever. I’d hope posters would make stuff to help you have a good time, but it’s our job to cultivate our own experience ultimately.

I could go on forever talking about this stuff, but I’ll stop for now. Just give it time and explore more, and since you seem to comment, keep doing that. It’s the best thing for this place. Post, comment, give feedback, repeat.

Blaze ,

Nice comment

anon6789 ,
@anon6789@lemmy.world avatar

You and the Fedigrow crew helped me get through feeling much like OP a while back. I think that was a really good idea, because it is tough and emotional at times doing what we do. It can be easy to feel alone when you put yourself out there every day and feel like nobody is around or like you’re doing something wrong and people are falling off.

I never set out to be anybody here, but I was done with Reddit, and wanted to keep something that made me smile continue on, so I just sucked it up and did what needed to be done. You guys make it worth it, and as long as the people that do show up are having a good time, I’ll do my part to keep the party going. I get old, pre commercialized web vibes from Lemmy, so I’m gonna stick it out here as long as I can, because this is the kind of thing you don’t just get anywhere anymore.

poVoq , (edited )
@poVoq@slrpnk.net avatar

Reddit has been declining for years as well and basically just lives on momentum from earlier days when forums or forum-likes had their heyday.

Lemmy is trying to get a cut of a shrinking user base and is doing so by being a very close copy of Reddit. It’s not exactly surprising that it only “grows” when there is a wave of people annoyed with Reddit for some reason.

Your suggestions are fine, but the internet as a whole is moving to semi-private communities and Lemmy is not going to stop that overall trend.

hendrik OP ,

I don't know. I halfway agree and halfway disagree. We've always had things change. I always found a comfortable niche. Lots of Free Software exists, despite the odds being against them. I almost exclusively use software that respects my freedom. At least in private. The important thing is we pick up the fight. And concerning the services I use, we regularly succeed.

I don't really care for Reddit, or all the people moving to Discord. And their millions of users. All I want is a nice niche with an atmosphere I like. And enough users who are aligned with my interests so I can talk about what I like.

And I think you're right and Lemmy -as is- isn't stopping any trend. Because we can see it's stagnating. It'd have to change to do that. Provide anything meaningful to users that they don't have some place else. Whatever that is, great software functionality, nice people, good content... (Ideally all of that.)

Blaze ,

As a random observation, it’s August at the moment, a lot of people in Europe are on vacation/holidays, so that might explain the fewer comments.

Overall, very nice thread, I might crosspost it to !fedigrow

maegul , (edited )
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

I feel like some software/platform features that encourage and foster more community-based and discussion could go a long way.

Some quick thoughts:

  • user-specific multi-communities
  • Being able to notifications for certain events or activities (incl special notifications from a community or ongoing discussion in a thread)
  • Opt-in post visibility, such as excluding a post from the All/local feeds (similar to the private communities feature coming to lemmy)
  • Perhaps controversial … but expanding into a quasi-blogging direction where people can have their own personal communities into which only they can post, a little like microblogging, but more like an actual blog given the character limit here. Along with multi-communities, it could be quite a nice complement and allow for communities to evolve around people with interesting ideas/thoughts.
Coelacanth ,
@Coelacanth@feddit.nu avatar

All good suggestions. Multi-communities has been requested for a long time and would help combat the userbase split across for example gaming communities @lemmy.world and @sh.itjust.works.

Subscribing to individual threads would make following ongoing discussion much less tedious than it is now.

threelonmusketeers ,

Being able to notifications for certain events or activities (incl special notifications from a community or ongoing discussion in a thread)

Yeah, the ability to follow posts and comments to be notified of new comments and replies would help boost discussion. I hope they implement this soon.

patrick ,

I think if you want Mods/Devs/Admins to have better impact, they actually need to have funding. People focus on funding hosting costs, but everyone seems to be assuming that Mods/Devs should be volunteers.

If you're not donating in some way to the instances/software you use...please start.

As an example, lemmy.world is run by https://fedihosting.foundation, who also run mastodon.world and many other instances. AFAICT the whole group takes in a little over $1000 a month through Patreon/ko-fi. That's barely enough to cover hosting costs for so many huge instances, much less compensate the several dozen volunteers.

hendrik OP , (edited )

I'm a bit the wrong receiver for that kind of information. I'm not on lemmy.world but run my own instance. I've donated days worth of developer hours already, and I'm planning to do more... But I can't speak for other people.

And I dislike money being involved. That leads to obligations, envy, and people stop doing it for the fun and because it's a nice platform. I think that shifts things and I'm not sure if in a good way. We'd get closer to commercial interests and we already have enough commercial platforms. I liked the old way how Free Software worked. Some random people doing it out of their own motivation. Coming up with all kinds of interesting software that'd help them. And they'd generously share it and invite everyone to participate. And it'd stop there. No ulterior motives involved.

But with that said, yeah. Someone has to do the development, pay for the servers and do the community work. That's not optional. And we have a broader issue with money in the Free and Open Source ecosystem.

Churbleyimyam ,

I think something which would benefit the tone or ‘culture’ here would be to make it immediately and publicly clear that a negative interaction is unwelcome. Rather than get into a pointless debate with a troll, simply reply “This is a rude and/or low-effort comment which nobody wants here.” It might not make much difference to the troll but for anyone else who reads it it creates and reinforces expectations about behaviour. The same thing goes for positive contributions; make sure to comment letting people know when you value their contribution.

I wouldn’t mind if moderation was more heavyhanded too. If someone is rude and abusive, block them from posting on the community, regardless of the point they may be trying to make. In that respect I would like to see more moderators from the community

I’m sure technical things could be done to help too. Perhaps letting users switch off visibility for posts/comments that have received a certain proportion of downvotes for example.

hendrik OP ,

make it immediately and publicly clear that a negative interaction is unwelcome

I couldn't agree more strongly... I mean we kind of have that already. Everytime I see something that has a score of like -40 because of all of the downvotes, I think they got their just punishment and it's clear that no one likes what they wrote. I think it's superior to replying because it doesn't give that person any reply to start an argument. Just silence and downvotes. But however we decide to do it, i think we should be very open and upfront with what's expected behavior. And I'd like to see that happen more often.

switch off visibility for posts/comments that have received a certain proportion of downvotes

PieFed has that feature. Comments with a score less than -10 (I think) just collapse. I think we need more of those features in Lemmy and the respective apps.

threelonmusketeers ,

Comments with a score less than -10 (I think) just collapse.

Neat idea. Would be cool if the threshold could be configured by the user too (though a recommended default value would be wise).

FundMECFSResearch ,

I think it should be proportion and not net score. Ie. If after atleast 8 votes have been cast >70% are downvotes, comment is collapsed.

FundMECFSResearch ,

I’d like to note that while to you it may seem there is little interaction on lemmy, ie. votes and comments. I can assure you the median engagement on posts is far higher than reddit. The bottification of reddit has made it so that the few bot/troll posts get lots of engagement, and anything organic gets pretty much none.

autonomoususer ,

Ban ‘moderators’ who don’t even follow their own rules, like being civil, on large ‘default’ communities.

hendrik OP ,

What I don't want to do is pointing at people and distributing blame. We maybe need to do that, too. But that shouldn't take away from each and everyone of us asking »What can I, myself, do to make this a better place.«. That's what I'd like to focus on with this post. So I'm not saying you're right or wrong. But I consider that out of scope for this discussion.

autonomoususer ,
  1. Start new communities to replace large ‘default’ ones and follow our own rules when moderating them.
  2. Make platform and protocol changes to further decentralise power.
FundMECFSResearch ,

Have you interacted with BeeHaw much? Because they do most the things you ask pretty well.

hendrik OP , (edited )

Yes. That's a good call. In fact, I've been subscribing to a few more beehaw communities lately. I think I'm not completely aligned with their vision. I think they're a bit too restrictive and trigger-happy with the defederation. But... The atmosphere there seems nice. So they seem to be doing it right. And I have to revise my prejudices.

But I don't want them to be out there by their own. I definitely want this to be a federated place. So... Maybe we should form some alliance? Some instances that agree on some expected behavior from their users? And these instances then collaborate more closely than with the rest of the network?

FundMECFSResearch ,

I like that idea.

Hegar ,
@Hegar@fedia.io avatar

Defederating from threads seems like the best way to make it nice. That way there's less influence from psychopathic billionaires who happily stoke genocide for clicks.

cabbage ,
@cabbage@piefed.social avatar

Threads doesn't really communicate with what's referred to as the Threadiverse anyway. Sometimes to mbin I guess, but only profiles that are actively invited by being followed by users on an instance. So I'm not sure this would change all that much.

hendrik OP ,

Yeah, it wouldn't. I've never interacted with a threads user. And none of my lengthy ramblings involves any of them. So it wouldn't change anything which I addressed.

Hegar ,
@Hegar@fedia.io avatar

The existence of threads makes threadiverse an inappropriate name for fediverse content aggregators, is the point I was being overly sarcastic about.

cabbage ,
@cabbage@piefed.social avatar

Ah. Part of me agrees, another part of me thinks we've been talking threaded messages threads for decades and I don't feel comfortable letting meta ruin it.

HubertManne ,

I feel if as much power is put at the user level it will be good. let users block and subscribe to anything at all and if we could bring in trust cafes mechanic where you can reduce or increase view as a semi subscribe/block kind of thing. For subscribe I want to subscribe to someones content but also like their block lists. Basically we need a way for it to be a cesspool yet the user can make it great. I have this view because I have kinda seen in in practice. MMO were chat was a cesspool but after blocking like 12 folks it was a delight. I would absolutely love a symetric block to where block wins. IE blocking someone also acts like them blocking you.

hendrik OP ,

Agree. I think there is much to gain with a few new software features. I didn't really address that. But I think there is no way around that. Lots of things can be addressed with good design decisions. And it affects things. Even a small bias in the platform foundation will push things in a direction. And we need to use that to our advantage. Or it'll be working against the platform. I'd like some more power over my own experience, too.

cabbage ,
@cabbage@piefed.social avatar

I think one of the best things we have are users like @craftyindividual and @anon6789 who almost single-handedly curate fantastic communities of content they're passionate about.

It's a huge job, and not something one could easily ask of anyone. So I don't have a quick fix how to attract more people like them or anything like that. But I think people doing these kinds of efforts deserve a shout-out.

I'm not very worried personally. I like it here, and it seems healthy enough in my eyes. I see people ask quite specific questions about many diverse topics and get incredibly helpeful answers, and I've been in that position myself as well. That doesn't mean it's not worth discussing the state of the community though, and I'm curious what people have on their minds. :)

anon6789 ,
@anon6789@lemmy.world avatar

Appreciate the shout out as always! We have a great set of people here, and we should all be happy with this place we’ve built together, even if it’s still a humble, cozy place. I feel we have organic growth, and it will come in waves as Lemmy builds and improves. Just keep doing what we’re doing and we’ll be good!

hendrik OP , (edited )

Continuing my post here due to the character limit:

What can we do?

Votes

I think we all know votes are broken. They just show the agreement level of the mob. Not necessarily connected with quality or if something is interesting to read. I think ultimately that's unfixable. But I'd like to invite you all to vote more. People who write posts or comments need to see it's worth typing it. There has to be some interaction or we're just wearing out people who contribute. And remember to vote on comments, too. Be generous.

Posting the news

I'd say don't do it too much since we already have RSS readers and news sites. But I'm willing to yield with my personal opinion. But(!) Please only post articles that you've read yourself. If it's too boring for you to read, it's probably also too boring for the other people to read any you're just contributing to make this place be littered with random noise.

Posting links with no attached (body) text

Connected to my previous point: Ask yourself: "Why am I posting this?" Is it because you want to discuss something? If yes: Put in a minimum of effort and contribute something yourself. At least write one or two sentences in your post and don't just dump a single link. IMO you should also write a short summary for your audience so they know if they want to click on the link. If you respect them and their time.

Reacting emotionally

We all do that. Just take a step back every now and then and see if your reactions are balanced in a way that you're comfortable with. Remember you can always down-vote someone and be done with it and not start an argument. But you don't need to keep silent. Especially if you're reading a text like this and making an effort, you're probably on the good side, so I don't want you to surrender this place to the people with less approvable behavior.

Be nice

I'd say everyone of us shapes this place by their behavior. If you want it to become a nice place, be nice yourself. We all know that's easier said than done, but we can make an effort.

Diversity

I think diversity is baked in to the Fediverse. We can have different instances with different focus, different moderation policies and a different tone of conversation. The technology isn't there yet to give everyone what they want, but I think we should embrace our diversity. And do something constructive with it. That's not easy. Some people like to have "free speech" and no moderation. Some like to have civil discussions without trolls and people who are constantly wrong, yet very aggressive and argumentative. Some are meme-lords or whatever and everyone is here for their individual reasons. I don't think we need to completely unite or agree on things. But we have to find a way to get along... Be liberal with other people who might be using this place differently. But don't tolerate unacceptable behavior.

Moderators and developers

You have quite some impact here. Use it wisely. Be fair, open-minded and make this a nice place for us.

Netiquette

People figured out in the 1990s, communicating over the internet is slightly different from communicating in the offline world. They wrote an unofficial code of policies that encourage good behavior on the Internet. Used to regulate respect and polite behavior online. It's called the Netiquette (If anyone has a better link, feel free to provide it to me.) It's a bit outdated so let me copy some guidelines and paraphrase:

  • Never forget that there's a human being on the other side!
  • Read and think before posting
  • Share something new
  • Your posts represent you - Be proud of them
  • Consider your audience
  • Be careful with humor, irony, and sarcasm!
  • Be conservative in what you send and liberal in what you receive.
  • Take your time when writing a post
  • Make things easy for the recipient.
  • Don't waste people's time. You should put in a bit more effort and in return save hundreds of people from spending extra time.
  • People's culture, language, and humor may have different points of reference from your own
  • Avoid posting "Me Too" messages, (use an up-vote instead)
  • Consider using Reference sources (Documentation, Newspapers, Google, ...) before posting a question.
  • Use spoilers when applicable
  • Don't get involved in flame wars. Neither post nor respond to incendiary material.
  • Don't feed trolls!
  • Deal with the issue, don't attack the person
  • Utilize the moderators. Flag/Report unacceptable content
Carrolade ,

Excellent summary overall.

One thing though, regarding feeding trolls. This was excellent advice in the earlier days of the internet, back when anyone trolling was doing it simply as a recreational activity, to have fun.

We no longer live in that world though. People have realized that there’s real power here, where one guy on Twitter can start riots through an entire western European country with a single tweet. Where an online campaign can change the political makeup of your country.

Now, in this day, we have a civic responsibility to treat trolls as we would if we encountered these behaviors in real life, because there is no difference anymore. It would be unrealistic to set some utopian standard for our online interactions when the digital sphere has simply become an extension of the physical world, with all the same problems and issues, and thus a responsibility to engage as one’s conscience demands.

As a side note, one idea I saw recently that I liked, I think it was mozz’s, that people receive temporary bans for any examples of using a classic strawman argument. I think this would be fairly easy to enforce and quite productive. It’s almost impossible to troll effectively if you can’t strawman, it’s probably one of the most common features.

hendrik OP ,

You're probably right. The world has changed substantially since the 1990s. I mean all of the text is more or less the opinion of a random dude (me) who'd like to make Lemmy a better place. But I don't claim absolute truth with any of that. Thanks for your input. I appreciate your pespective.

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