A lot of science around trees and forest management has gone this way. Forest used to be seen as competitive areas that needed to be thoroughly managed to be healthy. Now we know that’s not true at all, and overall would be better off if we just let them be (in most, though not all cases). Same with the idea that trees communicate with each other and share resources. This was dismissed and ridiculed for a long time, but has now been pretty resoundingly proven true. Peter Wohlleben’s The Secret Life of Trees talks a lot about this.
Yellowstone burned in 1988 because we kept putting out fires. My forestry professor (only 3-years later, he was there) said the deadfalls were often 10’ high and some higher.
I remember the whole “trees communicate” thing, that one’s kinda recent if I remember correctly. Like it was after the Avatar movie came out, which really fanned the flames of ridicule.
There’s a recent one I heard on radiolab podcast. In Chinese medicine there’s this concept of Chi that ebbs and flows throughout all of our body and our organs.
Western science dismissed it for a long time, but we were dumbfounded when a cancer would start somewhere, say the liver and then suddenly start appearing elsewhere like the brain, without harming anything in between.
Well, it turns out, our cell drying process for preparing slides for examination was crushing this tiny little matrix of tubes… that connects everything together. It’s working its way through the scientific process to be considered a new organ.
I was curious to learn more about this, because it sounded interesting, so I googled it. I’m guessing you’re talking about the interstitium? There’s a lot of criticism of that episode for inaccuracies about the interstitium (known for much longer than the 5 years the episode claims - it’s been mainstream since at least the 80s), traditional Chinese medicine (the treatments they mention have been proven to be no more effective than a placebo) and the connection between the two (there’s no relation between the interstitium and the lines predicted by chi). Everyone in the discussions I found sounded pretty disappointed in the episode.
Even if it’s usually pretty accurate (I don’t actually know whether it is), radiolab is not the same thing as the scientific establishment, and this is probably why the OP asked if anyone who does science for a living rather than reading pop science articles could reply.
A real shame, I personally do believe in a force that we can’t yet detect that’s somehow important for life and conciousness…
I hope one day we find it, till then, I won’t lie to anyone. This belief of mine is purely based on conjecture, gut instinct, and experiments I’ve done using good intentions and duct tape (which is to say, none at all)
Edit: Dear downvoters, I’m not saying for a fact this exists, that science points to it, or anything like that. I’m not trying to spread bullshit.
Many scientific hypotheses started out as what seemed like crazy ideas at the time. When Galileo and Newton challenged the ideas of Aristotle, this was seen as fringe and radical. When Einstein challenged the accepted Newtonian dogma it was seen as scientific heresy at first. These ideas only seem mainstream to us with hindsight.
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it
A study of when different geologists accepted plate tectonics found that older scientists actually adopted it sooner than younger scientists. However, a more recent study on life science researchers found that following the deaths of preeminent researchers, publications by their collaborators rapidly declined while the activity of non-collaborators and the number of new researchers entering their field rose.
So, not really accurate. Throw it on the pile with horseshoe theory.
Naw, Horseshoe Theory’s definitely real, just talk to some tankies.
I actually had some argue that “LGBT Rights are a distraction from important issues and forcing white values onto other culture and are therefore racist”, unironically. Which myself being a transgender woman, I was not amused by.
It’s so frustrating to see people try to say “progress and human rights are the most important thing” while simultaneously ignoring the people in their own back yard who have to face and live with laws that take away those very rights.
One day, we queer folk will be free, in spite of those useful fools.
The Dead Internet conspiracy theory was written with total crackpot paranoid thinking about ruling elites, likely antisemitic undertones, and general tinfoil hat reasoning about AI. Plus generative language models were nowhere near advanced or skilled enough at the time the conspiracy was purported to be happening.
But it was accidentally prophetic in at least two ways by 2024:
Corporations have completely strangled online social spaces to the point that most people only visit about 1 to 3 of them, and
Online discourse in those social spaces has been absolutely captured and manipulated by multiple governments trying to manipulate other countries and stir them into pointless ragebait frenzies.
It wasn’t due to the illuminati, the Jews, or anything weird and bigoted conspiracies of old have traditionally blamed. It was thanks to billionaires, corporate and government espionage, AI grifters, and unregulated scammer networks (digital currency counts too) jumping onto the same technology at the same time and ruining everything on the Internet in similar ways.
As the original comment said: the origins of dead Internet theory pre-date the prevalence of LLMs and are conspiracy theories about shadowy cabals of elites controlling the Internet
I feel like that commenter is inserting their own head cannon into this. Dead internet theory isn't that old, it started in 2021 when LLMs were already well into development and in public use. And unless the guy who originally posted the theory also had some secret manifesto I'm unaware of, the theory had nothing to do with "elites" at all.
I’m fairly certain variations on the dead internet theory have been floating around well before 2021. Here’s a variation of it on Reddit from 9 years ago: reddit.com/…/what_bot_accounts_on_reddit_should_p…
Apparently the idea stems from the IRC days where the first user to join a channel would receive admin rights. So people wrote bots to stay in channels and only grant admin rights to specific users joining. Then came more novelty bots that would stick around in channels, even bots that “chatted” with one another. When you’d join a channel and ask if there were any humans around they’d answer “just bots”, which eventually became a meme and then regular humans started saying that too as a joke.
That idea morphed into the “Everyone on Reddit is a bot except you” meme, which coupled with obvious bot activity on Twitter turned into the “Dead Internet Theory”, which basically takes the meme seriously. One of the original versions of that theory is this one: forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/dead-intern…
Some excerpts:
Large proportions of the supposedly human-produced content on the internet are actually generated by artificial intelligence networks in conjunction with paid secret media influencers in order to manufacture consumers for an increasing range of newly-normalised cultural products.
Yes, the Internet may seem gigantic, but it’s like a hot air balloon with nothing inside. Some of this is absolutely the fault of corporations and government entities.
I think it’s entirely obvious what I’m subtly suggesting here given this setup, but allow me to try to succinctly state my thesis here: the U.S. government is engaging in an artificial intelligence powered gaslighting of the entire world population.
In this way, the internet and social media, which was supposed to democratise media by allowing users to create whatever content they wanted, has instead been hijacked by a powerful few.
Quite clearly appears to be blaming a secretive cabal/corporarions/US government for the whole thing, so it’s definitely blaming “the elites”.
So forget that the original author blamed a Jewish cabal, and look at where we are. The causes may have been wrong (deeply wrong) but the effects are looking remarkably similar and we need to be able to talk about the real reasons without getting getting caught up in this “it’s all anti-semetic lies” trap.
Dead internet theory goes quite a bit further than what people mean when they talk about seeing more bots. Ardent believers of DIT think 90%+ of online interactions are not real for example, and that the US government has more advanced AI tech to fake these interactions than what is publicly known.
I’m not sure I’d mark every “the government is behind X/Y” conspiracy theory as anti-semitic either. The issue is more that those theories act as gateways towards more extreme conspiracy theories (which are more likely to be actually anti-semitic).
Fair enough. I’m just getting fed up with discussion about real issues being derailed with “that’s a conspiracy theory” because some crazy made up a load of bullshit to “explain it” at some point.
It’s almost like there an Illuminati coming up with conspiracy theories in order to stop rational discussion. /s
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a Russian propaganda piece. Russians were arguably the all time champs of anti-semitism and pograms (the word is even Russian in origin) before the Nazis industrialized them. Of course the Nazis used it, but it didn’t originate with them.
OP is inadvertantly providing another example: the phrase “conspiracy theory”. It was coined by the US government as a way to discredit ideas - to make people look like crackpots. Lots of negative propaganda was created around that phrase.
Fast forward to today and “conspiracy theory”, though admittedly still tainted in various ways, has made a resurgence. Things that would have gotten you laughed out of the room are now proven fact(like Iran-Contra, for a simple and fairly uncontroversial example).
That’s part of why that move to coin that phrase was so powerful. There are real conspiracies/intelligence agency operations (like regime changes in several countries during the 20th century), and then there are completely idiotic ideas and takes (like flat earth) and ones that were never meant to be taken serious (like birds aren’t real).
That makes it really tedious to weed out the bullshit and distinguish it from the stuff that has substance.
I’m going to have to disagree with you because obviously, not every single conspiracy theory, across all time and cultures and context is anti semitic.
But that’s what the literal words you used state.
We can even test this theory by inventing our own conspiracy theories.
the dead internet can easily be solved so not sure it’s that prophetic. various easy ways to verify humans exist while keeping anonymity if you wish. these same mechanisms can be used for voting.
Continental drift was a theory formed in 1912 by a German meteorologist, Alfred Wegener. Geologists balked at the idea of enormous landmasses moving and said the idea of an Urkonintent was ridiculous. And besides, he was a weatherman, German weatherman, so outside of his field and untrustworthy as a German was considered at the outbreak of WW1.
Then, 50 or so years later his theory was rediscovered when different fields were trying to understand polar magnetic drift evident in iron ore formation. The only explanation that made sense from the evidence is that mountains were not permanent and oceans didn’t exist in some areas - a lot like the land masses moved.
Wegener was eventually vindicated in almost all areas except drift speed. There was an Urkonintent, which has been named Pangaea. The continents do move but because they sit upon plates. He had taught the world about the world but died before anyone thought he was right.
An interesting detail of this story that I only learned recently was that the core ideas of Wegener’s theory were in fact generally more well-received by European geologists, with prominent advocates even in the 1920s. It was primarily North American geologists who mocked him and dismissed the theory upon its 1925 American publication, and this may have been partly due to the English translation (from the 1922 German 3rd edition of his book) having a “tone” of stilted presumption and dogmatism that utilitarian translations of German sometimes have.
That tone might explain why the theory (and Wegener himself) was smacked down with such prejudice by American geologists. In particular, we have a talk given by Charles Schuchert at the 1926 Symposium on Continental Drift hosted by the American Association of Petroleum Geologists in which he mischaracterized Wegener’s theory as a facile observation of coastline similarity. In fact, Wegener based his argument on deep-sea continental slopes, where edges could be shown to fit more closely, but he didn’t defend himself at the symposium (perhaps again due to the language barrier). So unfortunately the misunderstanding of continental drift persisted in tangential American geology circles until the 1958 theory of plate tectonics took over while European geologists generally accepted the core ideas early on.
And if you think that’s a weird hangup from the past, remember that Americans, including very educated ones, are still currently mad (like, actually mad) that Pluto got demoted to Dwarf Planet. Because it’s the only “planet” discovered by Americans.
Pluto can be a planet if you want but then so are Ceres, Eris, Gonggong, and the several other dwarf planets, else your argument stands on nothing more than naked chauvinism. Which is usually how it goes.
By contrast I never personally heard anyone in the francosphere seriously complain about Pluto’s status, nevermind keep including it in the list of planets as an act of defiance. Because who cares (the Americans, that’s who).
I think an interesting one (that is still controversial) is that megakaryocytes(MKs) in the lung actually produce a significant amount of the platelets in your body. Rather than platelets all coming from bone marrow MKs. It is interesting because these two different platelet origins have different responses to infection.
A lot of mathematicians made fun of imaginary numbers when they were first proposed. In fact, the name “imaginary numbers” was actually given by skeptics to make fun of it. It kinda makes sense, imaginary numbers are all based off of a couple fairly strange assumptions, but they make otherwise difficult problems solvable.
The whole thing kinda ruined math though. Nowadays, mathematicians spend their entire careers building frameworks based on silly assumptions in the hopes that one day it’ll be useful.
People had similar responses to the ideas of negative numbers and irrational numbers when they were identified. There’s a story that a follower of Pythagoras was drown for identifying irrational numbers. I suspect it’s not true, but certainly it seems people had a hard time grasping the concept.
Reminds me of the Big Bang Theory, which was named that as a joke. The story goes that a Catholic Priest pitched the idea and scientists basically laughed, labeling it a “uniquely catholic idea that is more scripture than reality”
Then they proceeded to look into something called “Steady State Universe” to show that Priest how silly his “Big Bang” was…
Apologies were owed when Big Bang turned out to be true, Einstein had himself photographed with the guy even.
Which is why I find it funny that today the Big Bang Theory is not only used as proof against God’s existence by secular communities, but is fiercely objected too by fundamentalist ones.
Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) was originally dismissed by a lot of community doctors as well as more academic medical people. There are still a few who don’t believe in it and dismiss it as a behavioural or attitude problem. Thankfully those people are in the minority now. Unfortunately that doesn’t mean they’re not in influential positions.
One surprising contributor to validating ME/CFS is long covid, which seems to be the same condition but catalysed by a different virus.
I’m not a medical expert and could have mistakes in the above post but it’s generally correct.
I hate to be so selfish, but as someone with ME, the research that has accompanied Long Covid has been a real blessing. Prior to Long Covid, so little was being done and few people took ME/CFS seriously.
I struggle with this one, because I think a lot of it comes down to the stigma around mental illness not being treated as real illness. Bear with me.
Hypothetically, if ME was a behavioural issue (i.e. a mental illness) and was treated properly, the person would get better and they’d be happy with the diagnosis as it led to a treatment with stopped their suffering. However, because mental illness is treated so poorly, people want it to be a “real” illness so it gets taken seriously and they can get help.
The medical community has basically been in a battle with their patients on the definition of the syndrome. “Chronic fatigue syndrome” was deemed dismissive, they relabed it “myalgic encephalomyelitis” - big words to mean “spinal/nervous-system issue with muscle soreness”. Honestly, I think the best name is “post-viral fatigue syndrome” which does at least point to a triggering condition.
We still know nothing about why it happens, or how to treat anything except the symptoms. It may very well still be a psychological condition of some kind AND THAT’S OK! The important thing is finding a good treatment and helping people. That will be best done if we follow the evidence rather than letting social dynamics dictate what is acceptable to investigate.
I prefer the term post-viral fatigue too. However it’s incorrect to say that we don’t know if it’s a psychological or behavioural issue. GET and CBT have been thoroughly rubbished as interventions. Not only are they ineffective but they are dangerous.
I get to hear the leading experts* once per year talk about this and they have absolutely honed in on immune response and mitochondrial dysfunction as most probable causes. They are at the stage of proposing diagnostic criteria now. Things could get worse before they get better but we can confidently say that this is a medical condition now.
I’m thinking of Dr. William Weir and Dr. Nigel Speight, among others.
The fact that people with Myalgic Encephalomyelitis originally and demeaningly called Chronic Fatigue Syndrome can’t exercise.
It was first believed to be a mental health disorder where people are scared of doing activity. And patients who said exercising made them worse were treated for hysteria and kinesophobia (fear of exercise).
Now after a decade of so of biomedical research, and after research showing Graded Exercise therapy worked was discredited, we have a steady stream of studies showing different abnormalities and harmful reactions to exercise. Increased autoimmune activation post exercise, microclotting, mitochondial dysfunction, T-cell exhaustion. And most importantly with a dozen or so 2-day CPET studies, we have definitive proof that while healthy controls improve exertional capacity by exercising, these patients are the exact opposite, they worsen.
There’s even been a couple cases of young people 20-30 having a degenerative disease state that killed them.
There are unfortunately still a lot of medical practitioners out there who either don't believe in it or know nothing about it. I don't like disclosing my diagnosis with new doctors because you just don't know how they will respond.
Another interesting tidbit, by the way, is that studies have found that people who are more active and athletic are more likely to develop ME. That was the case for me. It's really rough going from being an active, semi-athletic person to being barely able to function.
Meteors. I stole that from “and the earth will shake” (Robert Anton Wilson). There was a description of The Royal College of Astronomy, or somesuch, harrumphing about such a ridiculous, and ignorant superstition.
I would say once they hit the ground they are meteorites. But while they are falling they are meteors. Based solely on my own assumptions. Not a hill I care to defend.
The germ theory of disease was originally very unpopular with doctors who subscribed to the miasma theory of disease. The idea that a doctor should was their hands before tending to a patient was seen as insulting. Doctors were gentlemen! Their personal hygiene was beyond reproach!
The truly horrifying part is that the guy who proposed it showed it worked, made people do it… and then when he died they stopped and the rates went back. He was committted to an asylum for his effort and died there 2 weeks later, due to…infection.
Sugar is the reason for the rise of heart disease that was happening in US. John Yudkin was the one to purpose that sugar was dangerous for our bodies and heart plus responsible for obesity but he couldn’t prove it and was criticized by his scientist who were paid by the sugar industry. I forget to state the sugar industry was funding scientist to blame it all on fat. It was a pseudoscience till the 70s and 80s when they found the correlation that Yudkin was missing.
Not to mention, Darwin most likely used Lamarckian theories to shape his own understanding, but didn’t want to give credit because he was English and Lamarck French. Lamarck was the first person to really emphasize the idea of heritability as we know it, describing genes before genetics existed.
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