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hsl ,
@hsl@wayfarershaven.eu avatar

We had this discussion yesterday as well. Removing under rule #4.

theodewere ,
@theodewere@kbin.social avatar

"there's too damned much ragebait", cried the ragebait..

TheBananaKing ,

oh look another techbro hipster whine

intensely_human ,

Arguments are not a bad thing!

Southsamurai ,

Well, that’s where moderation comes into play.

As much as people hate the idea, you need strict moderation to keep a given platform civil and on topic. To do that you need either robust tools (which lemmy does not have yet), or moderators able and willing to put in the time to keep things on track.

When a forum is run with a low tolerance for incivility, it will eventually become less of a target for jerks.

I catch hell any time I say that because people seem to believe (in spite of a millennium+ of evidence otherwise) that the default state of discourse is friendly and orderly. It simply isn’t. People are assholes. When they have the veil of quasi-anonymity, there are large amounts that won’t even pretend not to be.

I’ve seen it happen over and over again since the first html chat I was involved with in the nineties. Even before that, but when you were dealing with pre aol era internet, it was much less of a problem because of the barrier to entry.

You want friendly, chill communities, you have to pick between firm moderation with large and open numbers of users, or light moderation and limited access/numbers. The middle ground is just too open to bad actors.

On reddit, I saw strict moderation change a sub. I saw subs go from constant flame wars and nastiness into a fairly relaxed vibe in a matter of weeks just with active and mild moderation. With stronger moderation and clear community rules, you really can maintain a great community with only bare minimum randos stirring trouble.

intensely_human ,

As much as people hate the idea

Why do people hate the idea of moderation?

Southsamurai ,

No clue. But it seems to be most common among people that are most likely to believe that they should be able to say whatever they want, wherever and whenever they want.

TenderfootGungi ,

True. But I’m just glad there are enough people to have conversations. Hopefully some of the smaller subs can exist soon.

Fizz ,
@Fizz@lemmy.nz avatar

First of all I don’t think rage baiting and arguments are reddit culture. Reddit culture is people who act like know it alls when they have no experience or knowledge about the subject.

I have barely seen any arguments and I’ve seen no rage baiting. It’s healthy to have arguments on a site based around discussions.

FarraigePlaisteach ,

Before I left Lemmy I saw lots of threads with people calling each other “comrade” and saying that “uKrANiAns R nAzIs!”

I’d take the crappy memes over that any day. It’s not all about personal entertainment folks, those people are toxic.

Remmock ,

I’ll agree. When I first came here it reminded me of being part of 4chan back in 2005 when pranks and memes were partially cerebral and relied on you having some basic intelligence. Even if they were dumb, you had to appreciate the majesty of mass-calling GameStop to ask if they had Battletoads in stock. 4chan slowly devolved into a cesspit, and it didn’t occur to me until I joined Reddit 10 years ago that the people I had cut my teeth with regarding internet culture had moved on.

Over the years Reddit became slowly more, and then radically less interesting. I gravitated toward more niche communities or ones that challenged my worldview to maintain my engagement. It could still be engrossing, but I noticed more and more that Reddit just filled the gaps when I had nothing better to do, like reading on the toilet.

Early in the divergence I jumped to kbin and rediscovered the kind of intelligent discourse I had been missing all over again. However, I’ve already seen fascist apologizers and trolls migrating as well.

To borrow a phrase: “But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.”

roguetrick ,

4chan was a cesspit even in 2005. Something awful and FYAD were better examples of quality Internet troll culture at the time (which makes sense because 4 Chan were banned goons).

Remmock ,

Ok.

Neato ,
@Neato@kbin.social avatar

This is rage bait. And it's like the third post identical to this in as many days. The others were by right wingers pissed they weren't on truth social.

Lauchs ,

Fully agree. Like there was another post today that basically equated anyone disagreeing with them as evidence of a hive mind (no mention of why people agreeing with them wasn’t also a hive mind…)

SharkEatingBreakfast ,
@SharkEatingBreakfast@sh.itjust.works avatar

I’m ready to see more fun “you are bias”-whiners.

Like, yeah! Obviously my opinions have bias, you moron. I’m still not sorry that I made them feel offended by wanting nothing to do with their wannabe–dictator.

Lauchs ,

Obviously my opinions have bias, you moron.

Exactly! Everyone’s got a bias one way or the other, it’s looking past those and acknowledging reality. And I find the bias whiners tend to have trouble with that.

TacoButtPlug ,
@TacoButtPlug@kbin.social avatar

I wish there was a way to identify and fully block out bad faith actors.

Lemmylefty ,
@Lemmylefty@lemmy.world avatar

You can block users; what else do you mean?

Lauchs ,

My guess is they mean doing it at scale. Some sort of registry or something so that you don’t habe to individually block everyone. At least, that’s what I’ve been wondering myself. Some sort of “well, I trust Billy and Janet so if they block someone they’re automatically blocked for me too” style system.

I can’t see how to make it practical or scaleable but something along those lines.

dude187 ,

Maybe we could put little stars next to their names, but make the block manual

Lauchs ,

Lile this…

There’s an interesting good faith argument to be had about how to separate russian shills, trolls etc from people with whom you disagree but are worth engaging with. And then there’s the “WELL THAT’S JUST LIKE NAZI GERMANY WHY DONT WE PUT STARS ON THEM TOO!” silliness.

dude187 ,

Lol glad my joke triggered you so hard.

The whole Russian trolls thing is so blown out of proportion. Really a non issue

Lauchs ,

I wrote something so I’m triggered?

Neat.

dude187 ,

No, your triggered response why you’re triggered

Lauchs ,

I must not know what triggered means.

But holy shit, your comment history is just you being a whiny troll!

You clearly lead a wonderful, fulfilling life.

Have a good night, hope things get better for you.

dude187 ,

I literally made a joke and you wrote up some hateful nonsense in anger. Probably should heed your own advice

ikidd ,

And sew the star somewhere, like on their chest...

Southsamurai ,

On reddit, before they fucked the api, you could use third party tools to identify and tag users that were known trolls, and even have a good chance of identifying ban evaders.

Automod could filter out a lot of trolls and assholes just by fifteen minutes of typing, so users never had to see the worst stuff, even when the trolls weren’t identified.

Blocking after the jerks jerk is a slow whack-a-mole process

cRazi_man ,

Eternal September perhaps? As the population grows, the culture changes. It’s unavoidanle to an extent (if Lemmy keeps growing… But don’t we want that?).

ShittyKopper , (edited )

it is avoidable (or at least it can be slowed down enough to be manageable) if there is a pre-existing culture. lemmy simply didn’t have one beyond a vague foss/privacy focus and whatever’s going on over at lemmygrad, so the reddit migration brought over a lot of people who then set it up to be exactly like what they were used to (being reddit).

if you go look at mastodon (or the microblogging fedi in general) for example, the biggest instances still have their fair share of “twitteriness”, but as you get to the smaller, tigher knit, and stricter moderated instances, you’ll see a culture that’s significantly more laid back (and yes, very gay).

i think what’s happening is that the big instances act as a “firewall” of sorts. catching the people who just want a twitter 2. and the people who want more and vibe with the smaller fedi culture will then self-select and migrate out into the smaller instances after realizing all the cool people (and in lemmy’s case, communities) they follow are on those smaller instances and all the interaction they get on the large instances are boring reply guys (or worse, actual bigots that go unmoderated because no large instance can keep up with moderation and .world has inadvertently doomed itself even if it has not realized it yet)

over time i expect lemmy to have it’s own share of these tight knit instances - and as the hype dies down and the trolls start getting bored, communities start migrating, moderation tools improve, and yes - the occasional defederations that will inevitably happen - .world and it’s ilk will be the reddit 2 some people want to have (with the good and the bad), while a different, unique, culture will slowly but surely form across instances that intentionally keep themselves smaller and more focused. and of course you’d be able to talk across communities in these separate “sides” of the threadiverse thanks to federation.

hell, i’d say it’s already getting started.

cRazi_man ,

You’ve described what Reddit went through. I think that’s basically the process of maturation of any social platform. Reddit attracts (I.e. automatically subscribes) users to the default subs and so those are the biggest mainstream areas. Most people who want something more (and how I have used reddit for many years) move to smaller subs and find a much better environment there. Or communities break out to make smaller versions (true gaming, true movies, true fitness, etc).

Basically I don’t think any of this is platform specific, it’s just how things evolve online. Certain features judge development in a certain direction, but in that regard Lemmy should be much better without bullshit algorithms and disguised advertising posts… For now.

mo_ztt ,
@mo_ztt@lemmy.world avatar

Yah dude. I am a super newcomer to Lemmy, but when I started up it was refreshing that it was cerebral and different and marched to its own beat. I never even really noticed how much image / meme content had taken over reddit, until I saw a place without it. I didn’t agree with the tankies. But, there are tankies! This place is great. It’s different and authentic. I like it. And now, over the last couple of months I’ve been carefully attempting to keep my subscriptions on Lemmy to the factual stuff and eliminate from the feed stuff that’s memes or “Hold my whatever, I’m going in!” just kind of time-wasting.

And yet, even in the “good” parts I’ve been seeing this takeover of people who are… I don’t even know what they’re doing. I think it’s just sort of this dopamine loop that they want to come on and yammer. I’m sort of assuming that this is maybe a problem only on the big instances, that may be better on Mastadon or on more form-a-community type of instances? Maybe? I hope so.

Kengaro0 ,

Where? Every comment section I see is still a ghost town.

Kiosade ,

Right? This is the most comments on one post ive seen in a while.

squiblet ,
@squiblet@kbin.social avatar

Yeah! (spirit noises)

Saganastic ,

It just takes one person posting a comment to start a conversation. No one wants to be the first to comment, but once someone gets it started others chip in.

Rottcodd ,

Yeah.

June was glorious. It was like the internet of the 1990s all over again. There wasn’t a lot of content, but what there was was posted by actual people who would actually engage in good faith. I had forgotten what that felt like.

But it’s been all downhill from there, and at this point, it’s starting to feel like Reddit, just on a smaller scale. More all the time, I’m just seeing rage bait that’s posted either by a bot or by a person who might as well be a bot, and if I bother to respond to it, it’s likely that if I get any response at all, it’s just going to be a string of shallowly emotive rhetoric and fallacies that again is either posted by a bot or by a person who might as well be a bot.

I’m cynically unsurprised but still disappointed.

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