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Why are Stop Lines (in the US, at least) often set too far back to see any crossing traffic?

I’ve seen them called “Stop Lines”, “Balk Line”, etc. The thick line painted on the road at a Stop Sign.

You’re supposed to stop before the line, but a lot of the time there’s a bush or other obstruction so you can’t see any crossing traffic. You have to creep forward until you can see anything.

Is there a reason for this? Is it done on purpose? It makes sense if there’s a crosswalk or something, but I see it a lot where there shouldn’t be any pedestrian activity.

Pyr_Pressure ,

A lot of times that’s where people cross the street. Want people to stop before the spot people might step out into.

Government_Worker666 ,

You’re supposed to stop behind the line and then ease forward.

Dark_Arc ,
@Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg avatar

IIRC in the US this depends on the state, in some states you can go straight past the stop line if you don’t see any pedestrians on approach.

Zahille7 ,

I don’t think it’s that they’re so far back, it’s just that no one does any upkeep on the corners of those intersections/turns.

For instance in my city there are plenty of stop signs on corners where there may be a large overgrown bush blocking the view of traffic (or even the sidewalk, if there is one) or something like that. Sometimes it’s just genuinely set up terribly.

Usually it’s just upkeep and maintenance not being kept up with.

kudos ,

I’ve driven a lot in the US (around a dozen different states) and Europe (most of the western continent), they are way further back in the US. As far as I can tell, this is because visibility in junctions is generally much better in the US. Also, the lack of roundabouts is frustrating, but right on red is awesome.

reddig33 ,

Because each state has different regulations for what’s acceptable for road design, and a lot of them are lousy.

My favorite trend is the “right turn on ramp” where you’re angled in such a way that you can’t turn your head far enough to see oncoming traffic, and you can’t see it in your rear view mirrors either. And if you are sideswiped or rear ended, you’re going to break your neck from straining to see if the coast is clear.

Crackhappy ,
@Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

Your mirrors are set wrong then.

ThatWeirdGuy1001 , (edited )
@ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world avatar

No there’s literally no angle you can set your mirrors and still see. And if you find an angle you can see at that mirror will be useless 99% of the time you’re driving

Crackhappy ,
@Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

caranddriver.com/…/how-to-adjust-your-mirrors-to-…

KitDeMadera ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    Crackhappy ,
    @Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

    Something like 90% of people don’t realize they have their mirrors positioned incorrectly.

    Tier1BuildABear ,
    @Tier1BuildABear@lemmy.world avatar

    Around me in these situations there’s usually a lane dedicated to the merging traffic. So like turning right onto a ramp to get on the interstate, you stay in your lane without risk of getting sideswiped, then once you’re up to speed it merges with the interstate traffic. Is that not the case for you?

    reddig33 ,

    We have some of those, but that’s not what I’m referring to. We also have these right turn lanes that curve off at the intersection, but don’t have a parallel ramp to get up to speed. They just throw you into oncoming traffic. It’s dumb.

    Tier1BuildABear ,
    @Tier1BuildABear@lemmy.world avatar

    Damn, that’s really stupid

    intensely_human ,

    If you can’t turn your head far enough to see the blind spot not covered by your mirrors, you should not be driving.

    No_Ones_Slick_Like_Gaston , (edited )

    I think he’s explaining Florida merges where the oncoming ramp is about 35 degrees from the HWY, where turning up and back is too far and the rear view mirror will show you the ramp, not oncoming traffic until you’re in a 100ft merge lane.

    intensely_human ,

    Oh you mean a vertical angle? Like you can’t see the traffic because it’s occluded by the ground between on-ramp and travel lane?

    No_Ones_Slick_Like_Gaston ,

    Yes, that’s one issue. The other is a merging lane entering a HWY is not parallel to the HWY Making rear view mirrors look at the road behind and not at the HWY where one’s merging

    intensely_human ,

    Okay so that second issue you just mentioned is the one I’m responding to. That angle where your mirrors don’t reach to is called a “blind spot”. It’s not just a problem in that one situation; it’s a problem any time you switch lanes.

    The correct way to handle a blind spot is to turn your head and look into the blind spot. If you can’t turn your head to that angle, you should not be driving. Having a blind spot that you cannot check is not okay.

    Dark_Arc ,
    @Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg avatar

    Can you link to a satellite view or diagram of what you’re talking about? The description sounds strange.

    DScratch ,

    To allow articulated lorries and buses to make a left turn onto your street.

    You stay behind the line when the light is red to leave them space, then you pull forward into the junction when you have right of way.

    aeharding ,

    Yield line further forward works fine in other countries though

    Ephera ,

    It’s often intentional to obstruct vision, since it’s the only real way of making drivers actually slow down. Even someone willing to run a stop sign isn’t willing to drive at speed into an intersection they can’t fully see.

    That doesn’t really require placing the line further back, but it may have been part of the motivation, along with what the others said.

    Rivalarrival ,

    They are set that far back so that you don’t obstruct traffic on your right from making a left turn to your oncoming lane. You would be able to see such traffic from the stop bar.

    Once you see that area is clear, you can pull forward.

    It is particularly important for bikes and motorcycles to obey these stop bars. When stopped just past the bar, on the left side of the lane, a moyorcyclist is hidden behind the fat A-pillar and/or side mirror of most modern cars.

    ThatWeirdGuy1001 ,
    @ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s also for semi trucks. They make massively wide turns to the point I’ve even had to back up to give them more room despite stopping before the line.

    Admetus ,

    In UK it is compulsory to stop at the line, and then you start edging forward. So logically it’s further back so that instead of wildly driving into a main road you creep into it. The stop line slows traffic all the way down so they’re driving out into that road at 10 mph perhaps.

    macgyver ,
    @macgyver@federation.red avatar

    This is also how it is in America, but a lot of people get pissy with you for “stopping” in the sidewalk even in the right turn lane (I assume left for y’all)

    sping ,

    I’m the UK the stop lines are not set back 15ft from the intersection. I don’t really understand your point, or certainly how it is relevant to the question, which is effectively “why are American stop lines different from British stop lines”.

    StrawberryPigtails ,

    In the US, more often than not, intersections like this were designed to handle traffic consisting of tractor-trailers. Tractor-trailers need considerably more space to maneuver than a small passenger car or pickup truck.

    As for the visual obstructions, my guess is some city planner failed to take the sight line of small cars into account when decorating or road side maintenance had been put off, allowing foliage to grow where it shouldn’t.

    What you’re supposed to do is fully stop at the line and then slowly scoot forward to where you can see crossing traffic and come to a full stop again. Then proceed according to whatever traffic rule governs that intersection.

    OfCourseNot ,
    @OfCourseNot@fedia.io avatar

    Others had pointed the reasons, I wanted to add that you have to stop at the line, and if something obstructs your sight (at stop signs, not traffic lights) you have to go a bit forward and stop again.

    Graphy ,

    Speaking of obstructing your sight, I’ve been test driving a lot bc I’m looking for my midlife crisis car rn. I’ve never had a shorter car before and I’m looking at maybe a Porsche rn which sits low.

    The amount of bushes placed where you need to see oncoming traffic is stupid. Also all the blackout tinted windows that keep you from seeing traffic in front. I’m second guessing owning a shorter car

    PlutoniumAcid ,
    @PlutoniumAcid@lemmy.world avatar

    Pick up a Toyota Land Cruiser instead?

    Carighan ,
    @Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s a good thing in a way because it’d mean if you adhere to road rules, then you’d have to crawl extra slow and stop more often around these areas, and Porsche etc drivers are the ones specifically where that is often a necessity due to how difficult their cars can be to spot.

    Graphy , (edited )

    Hah what a crock of biased shit take one look at this photo and tell me it’s for safety and not so this strip mall can look slightly less shitty

    This photo doesn’t even really stress how bad it gets right now in the spring because anywhere with sand/rocks will be a thick bush. Even in the photo the gray car in the middle is cutting into both lanes so a guy making a right has a bush and that to look forward to. If you decide to go north and take a left to get out then you’ve gotta dodge oncoming traffic and pedestrians leaving a busy store.

    You should always take it slow and crawl out of a blind corner but obstacles make it harder for no reason. In this lot if you crawl out enough to see left and right half of your car is already in the oncoming lane and you’ve crashed.

    Porsche etc drivers are the ones specifically where that is often a necessity due to how difficult theircars can be to spot.

    Lmao so let’s throw bushes everywhere so people and cars can’t see, gotcha. Jfc people

    dingus , (edited )

    What? If I have to physically enter the intersection to see around a bush/obstruction, it’s not safe at all no matter how slow you’re going.

    JackFrostNCola ,

    Another thing i have noticed since the increase in popularity of SUVs and larger Utes (‘truck’ for americans) is that their body is higher as well so often sedans and small cars cant see through other cars windows for traffic stopping ahead of the car infront of you or oncoming traffic when trying to turn out onto a road.

    Jimmyeatsausage ,

    If I had to guess, it’s likely a weirdly written local ordinance… maybe something that had good intent, like ensuring room for crosswalks, but it’s being applied in scenarios that don’t make sense or weren’t considered when the rule was written strictly for compliance reasons. It’s definitely something that varies by city/town.

    mozz ,
    @mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

    For stoplights, the stop line being comically far back is often so buses and trucks have room to make a big turn without colliding with your vehicle. If you're at an intersection where the stop line is in an absurd place, it's usually better to stop there rather than stopping wherever and running the risk of finding out why it is that you were supposed to stop way back.

    For stop signs, I have no idea. Maybe it means the traffic engineer was drunk that day or something; IDK.

    walden OP ,

    The lines at intersections with traffic lights make sense to me, especially since they all have crosswalks, etc. in my area.

    Tiltinyall ,

    I live in a very hard to navigate city by tractor trailer in the U.S. This is correct even in the case of stop signs. Tight turns need clearance for large vehicles or else you get no infrastructure

    4am ,

    There is an intersection on the south side of providence RI that is like this and every single day someone is way out there like they supposed to stop up with the other two lanes and they end up trying to back up into a line of stopped cars while a city bus honks at them

    walden OP ,

    Now that you mention it, even if you stop at the stop line, it’s still very possible to not see any crossing traffic and then start creeping forward only for a bus to appear. By then it’s too late.

    OpenStars ,
    @OpenStars@startrek.website avatar

    I know in some places, like Texas, they seem to presume that you have a tall truck. Anyone with even a normal-height vehicle is thereby put at a severe disadvantage, especially when you try to see past the tall truck that has pulled way far FORWARD past the line, just to stop at a red light.

    i.e., it is for measuring the size of one’s dick, even (especially?) for women drivers. Learn to swing it proud, or else never get anywhere in those places!

    eatabagofbooger , (edited )

    At a guess, these are for pedestrian crossings. The idea is that you come to a stop before the line, then push out to where you can see cross traffic, then go. Shouldn’t cost more than a couple seconds and is way better than charging right up through where pedestrians might reasonably step out before looking both ways.

    And yeah, sometimes these are in places where you might not expect pedestrians, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be pedestrians. Especially in the US where infra is terrible. Moreover, these things are often governed by regulations that hold for all intersections rather than having different rules for different roads depending on whether you think pedestrians are likely to be there or not.

    In fact, I’d argue that the fact that you don’t expect a pedestrian to be at a certain intersection is a good reason to have more regulations to encourage drivers to watch out for pedestrians, not less.

    Paraneoptera ,

    This answer is spot on. I know this varies by state but in my state every intersection is legally a crosswalk, regardless of markings, and drivers are required to stop at them and yield right of way to pedestrians. This applies whether the pedestrians are in the crosswalk or appear to be attempting to enter the crosswalk. The area legally designated as crosswalk is the space between the stop sign and the road, and in the vast majority of cases in suburban areas is unmarked. There is no way in most of these that a driver will be able to see pedestrians or cyclists coming, especially from the right, unless they stop at that stop sign. The correct procedure is to stop at the sign, determine that the pedestrian way is clear, and then pull forward to the road. There’s almost 1 pedestrian death an hour in the US and most of these deaths are avoidable from the driver’s point of view just by following this and other legally mandated procedures.

    davel ,
    @davel@lemmy.ml avatar

    I see it a lot where there shouldn’t be any pedestrian activity.

    This is a carbrained perspective. If an intersection is designed for cars to the exclusion of other uses, then others are unlikely to use it, which perpetuates car dependency. Even if all cars were electrified, car dependency would still be a massive problem in the US.

    walden OP ,

    I guess my thought process is if they placed the line a tad further forward where you can see crossing traffic, including pedestrians, more people would actually stop at the designated spot. The way I see it most often now is people ignore the line completely (boy who cried wolf effect maybe), further endangering pedestrians.

    Rhaedas ,

    Regulatory measures shouldn't be relaxed because people aren't following them, they should be enforced better. Of course how to do that in many situations such as this is the question. Other things are similar, like group speeding or smart phone use while driving.

    walden OP ,

    Traffic laws aren’t enforced where I am, but I wish they were. People routinely run stop signs.

    Rhaedas ,

    Same here. When I stop at a stop sign and there is a car behind me, I routinely take bets in my head to see if the next car just goes through it. Most often they do. Running red lights is another...if you are at a red light waiting for it to change to green, always wait a split second before going and also give a glance both ways. Don't assume because the light is good there isn't someone trying to beat the red. Or just going through an obvious red because they're more important than everyone else in their head. I've gone through many a yellow light thinking to myself that I really cut it close, then I notice one or even more people have followed me through the intersection. Boy they get upset too if you actually stop for that yellow.

    Umbrias ,

    Sometimes relaxing regulatory measures leads to people following them better, as they better match the intent of the regulation rather than being seen as absurd. It also lowers the ‘benefit’ of deviancy from that regulation.

    Sometimes you’re right, you regulate more extremely than the intent because people will follow it better, or it makes it easier to enforce.

    The point is there’s not a one size fits all.

    knexcar ,

    No, road design should be improved to make it comfortable and reasonable to follow the laws, and uncomfortable to break them. Think raised crosswalks that function as speed bumps at intersections, narrow roads to reduce speeding, that sort of thing.

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