I have a watch that uses MM/DD for date, which pissed me off to no end. While looking for a way to change it to DD/MM, I found out that they actually used ISO-8601 and dropped the year. Now I don't know how to feel about it.
ISO 8601 has spec for how to drop the year. You write it like –MM-DD (two dashes to indicate omission). Of course nobody really uses it beside the absolute nerds (e.g. me).
For speaking or writing it out going month then day feels natural, although I know it’s a regional thing. If you’re going number format, it should always go smallest to largest (DD-MM-YYYY) or largest to smallest (YYYY-MM-DD). For file names, definitely the latter so you can sort by alphabetical and everything is in order.
Feet are way more intuitive than meters, doesn’t matter which one you grew up with because one is based on something intuitive like the size of a foot while the other is based on some weird shit about how far light travels in a tiny fraction of a second.
That’s for feet only, how about the other measurements? Each person feet also different with each other, it’s kinda weird to just assume children length of their feet is the same with adult’s.
IIRC 1 metre originally is a length choosen so that Earth circumference is 40000km, the later definition is more stable standardization, because turn out you can’t get precise lengths doing that.
What’s important here is that the standard measurements evolved naturally from people doing and making things. The common lengths were so chosen because they were easy to “eyeball” for craftspeople, and they were lengths that were useful to make things in - not some arbitrary designation based on phenomenon far outside the human experience.
Maybe so for feet, how about other measurements and its conversion. Where’s inch coming from and why it’s 12 inch to be 1 feet, and for yards, miles etc. It’s kinda arbitrary, not natural, and confusing
For a person’s foot to measure exactly 12 inches long, they would wear a US size 14 men’s shoe. Size 47 for the Europeans. So “spproximately the size of a foot” is pretty far off anyway. Most people don’t wear size 14 shoes. In fact, people who wear size 14 shoes often have a lot of trouble buying shoes.
An inch it about the distance between the two knuckles on your forefinger.
A mile is about one thousand steps, or fifteen minutes of travel at a brisk pace
A cup is a cup, before portion sizes got daffy there was a pretty common cup that everybody had.
“Standard” measurements were refined over thousands of years by actual artisans making actual crafts. Metric was designed by a bunch of rich French people and foisted on the rest of the world because it makes more sense on paper, regardless of how in practical use it requires you to break out a ton of awkward decimals and other contrivances to make it match the human experience.
Read the xkcd comic. There are plenty of metric associations you can make in your mind, too.
Metric was designed by a bunch of rich French people
Metric came out of the French Revolution, which was caused by the underclasses rising up and overthrowing “a bunch of rich French people”. And then saying, “Hey, let’s try doing things rationally for a change. Like our systems of measurement.”
Because the bourgeoisie that lead the French Revolution famously remained 100% in lockstep with the underclasses. There was never a moment where the needs of the rulers diverged from the needs of the masses and a whole new regime of class strife arose from it, no sir.
The metric system was applied top-down to french society by its ruling class, it was not some grassroots attempt to make the world better.
read the xkcd comic
There’s nothing quite as intuitive as a table of numbers and associations that you can memorize by rote. Pass me my flash cards!
Notice that despite the presence of many people who grew up with and use the metric system none are complaining about how hard it was to intuit metric units?
If you stop telling people what they should find intuitive for a moment and actually listen to people telling you about their experiences then you might find that this is not an issue.
As I said elsewhere anyone can get used to anything. I was also propagandized in school by teachers who insisted over and over for years that metric was better and that using anything else was a waste of time - it was only when I became an adult and started making shit for myself that I realized the truth.
I’m not sure if you should be arguing against the metric system because it was applied top-down across Europe by Napoleon, considering the history behind how the imperial system was spread to what is now the USA. I mean, it’s literally called the imperial system.
The metric system was applied across the entire world and wiped out almost every single indigenous standard of measure that existed previously. The English unit of measures has a similar history vis a vis the British Empire spreading it, but my argument would be that indigenous measurements writ large should have been retained, not that they should have been wiped out once and for all by a second, even more imperial system.
You missed the point of their comment. Those measurements make sense to you because you grew up with them. If you read the xkcd you can easily see how you can make up the same comparisons for metric
I’m afraid you missed the point of mine. Anybody can “get used to” pretty much anything, but the difference between standard measurements and metric is that standard measurements are based on practical things that people interact with every day, while metric measurements were worked out on paper by the French bourgeoisie over a hundred years ago. They sought to use rationality to make a better measurement system, and in doing so made one that is totally untethered to the human experience.
read the xkcd
I’ve read the xkcd, the xkcd only responds to one common argument against the metric system, one which I am not making.
no, I didn’t. You still aren’t understanding even what you are saying, much less other people.
standard measurements are based on practical things that people interact with every day
no. no they are not. Let’s look at some ‘standard’ measurements as you call them (they’re actually not standard as you’ll immediately see):
The foot was a common unit of measurement throughout Europe. It often differed in length not only from country to country but from city to city. Because the length of a foot changed between person to person, measurements were not even consistent between two people, often requiring an average. Henry I of England was attributed to passing the law that the foot was to be as long as a person’s own foot.
Oh, well you might say “an inch is just a foot divided by 12”. nope. no it was not (all stuff in this comment is past measurements, because every unit of measurement on the planet uses metric as its base)
The inch was originally defined as 3 barleycorns.
Perfect. What’s a barleycorn’s length?
As modern studies show, the actual length of a kernel of barley varies from as short as 0.16–0.28 in (4–7 mm) to as long as 0.47–0.59 in (12–15 mm) depending on the cultivar
Oh ok, so it could be up to 3x the distance from one barleycorn to another. Perfect. Another ‘standard’
In medieval times English ploughmen used a wooden stick with a pointed tip to spur or guide their oxen. The rod was the length of this stick.
Great. So this one I have no visual reference at all. Is this pike length or sword length? (oh you’re all about referencing ‘standard’ objects, but just in case you don’t know a pike can be up to 25 feet long)
Do you see how ridiculous this is? You’re talking about standards that evolved over time from some ‘base’ to mean absolutely nothing today in relation to what they were hundreds of years ago. Metric was also based on ‘standard’ things, like the kilogram, which is just the weight of a litre of water (see, simple). You’re acting like the ‘standards’ of one unit are superior to the ‘standards’ of another unit, except that the unit of measurement you’re saying is superior is completely disconnected from each other. If it wasn’t for standards bodies coming in and saying “a foot is not the length of your foot, it’s exactly this … long” then there would be absolutely no way to convert between any units in imperial measurement.
Once again your argument has gone somewhat obliquely past mine and not actually addressed it, although I do appreciate how incredibly smug you are telling me I don’t know what my own argument is.
I never said that standardization was bad, what I said was that the references for standard measures were more useful. We don’t carry around rods for poking oxen much anymore, so that unit of measure is rightly confined to history.
You’re acting like the ‘standards’ of one unit are superior to the ‘standards’ of another unit
what I said was that the references for standard measures were more useful. We don’t carry around rods for poking oxen much anymore, so that unit of measure is rightly confined to history.
I just showed you exactly how that is not the case. A measurement saying a foot is as long as your own foot is completely useless in every context except the one where you do the measuring and never communicate it to anyone else. The same applies to literally every imperial unit. I also went on to show you that metric units were also based on standard measurements, like kilogram being exactly the weight of a litre of water. You conveniently ignored the fact that imperial was using weird standards while metric used useful, convertible standards. Please try converting 1cu ft of water to weight in imperial, with the ‘standard’ that it’s the length of your foot, not someone else’s foot.
And please do stop referring to imperial units as ‘standard’ measures. That doesn’t mean what you think it does.
That’s awful. Nobody on the planet has any frame of reference for the distance from the equator to the poles. The measurements used by people in the real world should be based on something they encounter frequently.
Nah, meters are very straightforward and easy to work with. How far is a kilofoot? God only knows, but a kilometre is a trivially visualized distance. What’s 1/100 of a foot? Dunno, but with meters it’s a centimeter which is, again intuitively easy to grasp.
Only when you’ve gotten used to it. The thing with your examples is that very rarely does anyone actually need a kilofoot or 1/100th of a foot, but they very, very frequently need a mile or an inch. Metric was designed to make sense on paper, standard measurements were designed to be useful in every day situations.
As an American Engineer, the US measurement system disgusts me. The rest of the world uses SI, but my entire industry (and most of the US) uses the English system still and I absolutely hate it. Converting from ft to inches, or BTUs and tons, cubic feet, etc. Our lazy asses haven’t joined the rest of the world yet. I wish we would just force the change and get over it
2nd of October seems the same as intuitive as October 2nd to me.
For whatever reason, I know that one mile is 1760 yards or 5280 feet, but difficulty comes when doing anything with those numbers (e.g. How many yards in 5.2 miles? How many meters in 5.2 km? One is definitely easier to do). Maybe my chosen vocation of Engineering means I encounter unit conversions more frequently than most people. I dislike the weird combination of gauge vs 1/xths of an inch that pops up time to time (drill and screw diameters). I don’t see how one mile is more intuitive than one kilometre as a distance.
I’m not sure about the meter vs yard, they are almost the same in terms of intuitiveness as well as actual value.
I just took a measurement of my fingers and my little finger nail is about a cm wide and my foreknuckle and index knuckle separation is about an inch.
I use inches in wargaming because I grew up with warhammer miniatures which classically come on 25 mm bases, though they’re switching to 30 mm to increase the size of infantry miniatures. At a certain point there’s a balance between battlefield resolution and readability, which 25 mm bases seem fine for.
Weights are even more baffling. I think I know what an ounce is, but I hate trying to multiply it out when Americans say something is 14 ounces or something.
I know what pints are because of beer.
Temperature is annoying for both because you have to find the little symbol not present on my keyboard.
Windows auto sorts it so any folder or any code reading it reads it in order without needing anything special. It shortens the filename, it’s fast to type on the number pad
My company has decided to standardized on phone numbers with dots instead of dashes. They’re in email signatures, memos, client proposals. I absolutely hate it and it rubs me the wrong way every time I see it. It’s wrong.
I use a standardization library for phone numbers. It makes parsing any user input dead easy, storing it as a standard string (can’t think of the standard name) and then outputting in the country’s respective format. I don’t have to inject a bunch of JavaScript crap that’s like “wrong format” and harass users; the backend sorts it all out.
Although I actually like that format a lot, we use characters to help elicit context. 2023/08/09 is fine since we have been using / for dates for so long. Also it blows my mind why people don’t use : in 24 hour times. 16:40 is great, no am pm bullshit and you immediately know I’m talking time.
Whenever I’m passing a date from a website backend to frontend I’ll usually send it inside something like <span> then have JavaScript convert it to a string based on the browser’s localization settings.
So many websites I see for error reporting, etc always throw everything out as UTC and it drives me crazy. It would be nice to just have an HTML tag for ISO-8601 (or even UNIX as done here).</span>
That looks like it’s only useful for machine-readable dates so it wouldn’t be useful for killing off the JavaScript portion of my “hack.” I cry at night for this
i’ve seen some software use . although that’s less human-readable than -. i hope you still use 8.3 naming on everything if you’re complaining about two hyphens.
Considering how there’s almost no computers anymore with such limited resources that they can’t store a string or convert to one, it’s kind of crazy anybody bothers with the ambiguity of using numbers for the month.
The limited resource is not Compute Power, but Engineer time. Sure, you could ask someone to implement wrappers everywhere in the system so that the display is human-readable - or you could put one label somewhere clarifying the date format to readers.
Implement wrappers everywhere? Why can’t they just write a single function that takes an ISO date a spits out a string (human readable) date? I’d put money down that such a function already exists in almost every library that deals with dates.
That’s why I said “implement” and not just “write”. The process of wiring in that existing function has non-negligible cost, as does keeping it updated/patched.
Sure, it should be pretty small - but it’s non-zero. Is it worth it? That’s a product decision.
It’s written like 07 Aug 2013. It’s consistent in character length, doesn’t confuse internationals, doesn’t take much space and is written exactly like being said around here. It’s just not that great for file names.
Yeah, ok. Expanding the month to 3 chars does reduce potential confusion
I feel the need to be pedantic and point out that this is only necessary, however because of the ridiculous degenerate convention of MM DD YY(YY?) used by said country…
Seeing as I do a lot of AV editing I use this format to keep track of Audio files I do production on. YYYYMMDD Filename Version. It’s often a case of working on a file and coming back to it weeks or months later, and in most cases there are multiple versions and revisions as I collaborate with my production partner.
It helps me keep track of the timeframe, what it is and which version so I can ensure rendered versions I’m using in other directories or as assets in other files are consistent and up to date.
The directories got quite messy and confusing initially until I adopted the ISO date format for this case.
lemmy.ml
Hot