That with the limited number of jobs to accommodate for, changing monetary values and demand for goods and services, natural disasters and game changers, and fluctuating, unpredictable circumstances that change how something plays out, there is nothing about the job force that isn’t fluid and prone to putting you in some kind of shifting interdependent situation, enough that making the job scene a bureaucratic construct was a big mistake and that having career dreams is too oversimplified an expectation. I knew this to an extent but now I know the full scope.
I’m halfway through scrolling this long thread, and this is the first comment I’ve seen that isn’t overly cynical. It’s also correct.
I’ve been working for 38 years, and I’ve been someone who makes promotion decisions for 15 of them. The third one is helpful, not essential, but the others are super important. The people who rise to leadership positions aren’t necessarily the top technical people, they’re the ones who do those things with a good attitude.
The other thing I’d add is that they’re people who are able to see the big picture and how the details relate to it, which is part of strategic thinking.
I’m not sure if the competence is really in the last place. I’d say it’s on the equal level. Great communication and ownership of the problems means little if you can’t really solve the problems.
People have those things in spectrums, not all or nothing. You have to have at least some of all of them, but I’d argue that mediocre competency with really good communication and accountability is a better combination that really good competency with one of the others being mediocre.
I still kinda disagree. We’re talking here about engineering role after all. I have a colleague who is a code wizard, but has kinda problem with (under)communicating. He’s still widely respected as a very good engineer, people know his communication style and adapt to it.
But if you’re a mediocre problem solver, you can’t really make up for it with communication skills. That kinda moves you into non-engineering role like PO, SM or perhaps support engineer.
But I would say this - once you reach a certain high level of competence, then the communication skills, leadership, ownership can become the real differentiating factors. But you can’t really get there without the high level of competence first.
I think we might be agreeing, it’s just that “mediocre” means different things to each of us. My team supports human spaceflight, and no one we have is crummy. The “mediocre” people have pretty decent technical skills if you’re looking across all software development domains.
Personally, I’ve found the decent technical skills to be easier to come by than the other ones, and having all of them in one package is a real discriminator.
We’re talking here about engineering role after all.
where? seemed like general advice.
Even then, thee aren't mutually exclusive. your competence will affect how people see you on a personal level, at least at work. And your competence affects your ability to be given problems to own. You're not gonna give the nice but still inexperienced employee to own an important problem domain. they might be able to work under the owner and gain experience, though.
Documentation and presentation are highly undervalued, and your ability to understand and spread that knowledge can overcome that lack of experience to actually handle the task yourself.
I was taught that my job is “to make sure all my bosses surprises are pleasant ones”. 15 years of working as an engineer and that never changed. Now I have my own business and that’s the thing I look for employees… someone I can leave on their own to do a job. It they have problems they can always ask me. If they screw up I expect them to tell me immediately and to have a plan of action to fix it and to prevent it happening again. And I never ever get cross if someone does come to me and say they screwed up. Far better that we tell the client about a problem than wait until the client finds the problem themselves.
Reading all these comments makes me realize how lucky I’ve been in my career. I’ve always had great bosses who defended me and backed me up.
Deducing whether a coworker is liked by all the other coworkers is unfortunately a very overlooked stepped of the hiring process that I wish would be there.
It depends on the job type really. If it’s something in the food business, you are in a literal death trap every day in the name of some random person’s sense of taste, but if you’re in a humanity job for example, they can’t afford the mentality that would cause the work scene to not accommodate to you.
I work in agricultural robotics… Our client develops a new harvesting machine, but is unaware of the real danger of it. My boss just want the things done as fast as possible. This expose us to danger. Not really a robotic cell, not really an agricultural machine, something in between, without any direct regulation to cover it because it is new.
Sorry about that. Hopefully they fix that and you live somewhere where they’ll be able to. In most relatively well-off countries, usually filing a complaint in court does the job.
That’s never been my experience, I work in retail so it can be tricky when you’re going up against thousands of other applicants and they usually don’t require experience.
Interesting, I’ve definitely gone months applying for jobs and not hearing back for interviews or anything. I suppose location and sheer luck has a bit to do with it as well.
The way we’ve structured work in the U.S. is a capitalist farce. We’ve been duped into working our asses off to make someone else who doesn’t care about your well-being a large pile of money. So, I get my work done, I don’t slack, but, I’m not going to go out of my way to do things for a company that would replace me tomorrow if I got bit by a bus.
I love the image of a bus zooming towards you, the fear of being hit, the bus stops at the last second, you’re so relieved ‘whew’, and then it opens it’s giant bus mouth like jaws and CHOMP!
Fuck the company, don’t get lured into a feeling of “fAmiLy” or even loyality towards them. Do as little work as possible, get as much money out of them as possible, then switch companies and get a significant pay rise. Rinse and repeat.
You are more important than the company, put you and your family first.
If your company doesn’t provide a pension plan you have no reason to be loyal and stay.
Telework is an excuse for minimal working. Most remote workers schedule emails, get their work done quickly than spend the work day doing personal work on the clock.
Charisma is more important than performance for career progression.
Favorite employees are typically the easiest to be manipulated and taken advantage of.
From an employer’s perspective, they are wasting their money if you work less than the work day. Most employees waste their workdays in the office, stretching out work. One of the reasons why telework is failing is because, after three years, employers finally figured out that their employees are not working the whole day. From their point of view, that means you are unproductive because you could be doing even more and can handle a much larger workload. Employees obviously don’t want them to know that.
So the solution is to get them back to the office so they are forced to spend more time either being slowed down by their environment or pretending to work like before? I don’t understand the point. Employees are not going to magically transpose 2h of efficient remote work into 8h of efficient office work. The point of view is irational.
playing the game is a necessary function of corporate work, otherwise it will chew you up and spit you out. you can have autonomy if you've made the right people happy, the rest can get fucked.
It’s about who you know. Don’t socially isolate your self even when you are great at your job. Being invisible is a sure fire way to be overlooked when it comes to promotions or a raise. Also being likable means your colleagues will more likely have your back and root for you.
A couple of months ago there was a post on Reddit of a Gen Z person who hated when people would say a simple good morning to them. They rather walk into work, sit down, do their work and go home without talking to anyone. And a lot of other Gen Z people agreed with them. Crazy that they don’t understand how the “game” works, nobody is going to root for you when you act like that. Also no wonder Gen Z is struggling with loneliness.
Let’s not start shitting on the next generation, please. We promised to be better, so let’s make an attempt at empathy yeah? IDK how old you are but keep in mind they’re inheriting a dying planet, late stage capitalism, and in general, hopelessness. I’m very securely in the millennial range and we were also shit on heavily when entering the workforce. Be better.
We also need them very immediately to vote. We can’t count on other millennials, gen x has given up trying and boomers are still voting like it’s their job. We need to make sure they vote, IDC who they pick, they just need to be active.
You don’t have to run the rat race to get promoted. You don’t have to be at your desk at 7am and leave at 7pm to put on a show. Just be competent. Most people are not. You’ll eventually get promoted once you are old and white enough.
I must not be old enough because I’ve never been promoted even though I’m practically white as a ghost. Every promotion I have ever received is from getting a new job at a new company and ending up making significantly more money that way.
How long do you work for the same employer though? What field are you in?
I’ve worked for the same employer for 12 years and never got a promotion because there was only one way up and a pool of over 1000 employees to pick from, then switched to another job and got a promotion under a year…
May I ask, what is the most important thing to show in a programmer CV?
Im a junior programmer. I would say im good at the job. I can easily create new software and also find problems in other codes and fix them. However I have no idea what I would say in an interview. Its not like I learn code by memory.
Unfortunately in your case, the most important thing is experience. You just need the years for employers to want to hire you, and with this year in particular, the competition for jobs is insane because of all the layoffs. Make some cool personal projects, that sort of thing can help.
personal projects or project you contribute to (e.g. a decent sized code base in Github). if you're early on, this can be school projects.
ability to answer programming concepts in an interview settings
school/grade prestige.
I have no idea what I would say in an interview.
if you have no previous job, then yea. It's rough. The first job is always rough, and even in software that's no exception. You will want to talk about decisions and features you worked on in personal projects for that stuff. And of course, really nail down your fundamentals; they really drill you with those interview questions as a junior.
If you have a job, then talk about that. Maybe there's some NDA, but you can talk about some problem in general terms and what you needed to do to solve it. You're not expected to do anything crazy as a junior, so your answer relies more on you knowing how to work in a team than novel architectual decisions.
Personal example: my first job was at a small game studio and my non-BS answer would be that I simply did bug fixes for a game. Nothing fancy, probably something an intern can do.
But interview spin: doing those bug fixes
helped me learn about Unity's UI system, I can talk about specific details if the interviewer cares (and don't feel too bad if they don't. Even a super experienced engineer won't be able to talk about every sub-topic of an industry)
I talk about where I encountered decisions and when I talked to my lead about what to do. e.g. One bug ended up coming from code that another studio owned. While it was a one line fix, I reported it to a lead who would then create an issue to pass on to that studio. Frustrating, but it shows you understand the business politics of the job, something school can't teach.
I never did it at that first job, but there were moments where deadlines get moved forward, and you think of a compromise for a feature due to the lack of time . That shows your ability to identify the Minimum Viable Product and to understand the problem, both the bad and good ways to solve something (sadly. in games you may have to hack solutions quite often)
Oh yeah if you’re “just” a programmer (in the sense that you don’t have other formations) you might have to do management courses on the side, that’s what my friend had to do to land a permanent promotion…
It’s true management would likely get me promoted faster but honestly I always wanna stick with the programming side of things. As I get more experienced I will keep getting larger salary bumps, but it’s almost definitely not gonna be from promotions but rather from switching jobs lol
Getting promoted isn’t a race. It’s a marketing campaign. The squeaky wheel gets the grease sadly. I hate it but that’s the game. You can be great but if the right people don’t hear about it it won’t bring a reward.
The funny thing is it’s a loss for the employer since it means people spend time self-promoting themselves and their achievements instead of just doing things well.
Some leadership will actively not promote you, even block attempts by you, if you’re at the top of your role and consistently outperforming peers, why would they let you move up? You make them look good right here.
I worked at “AT&T wireless” back in the day when dirt was new. This guy would say “ squeaky wheel gets the grease.” One day after he said that our team lead said “Or gets replaced.” Then they walked his ass out.
If we take it from the other side, it’s difficult for management to understand how well you’re doing if you’re not communicating it properly, especially if your job is highly technical but they aren’t. Technical experts who would understand your work alone don’t necessarily make good managers.
Getting promotions and raises is rare. Haven’t seen that happen very many times. However, many people have told me that the best way to get a raise is to switch to another company.
Yeah. I always tell newbies “nobody ever got a promotion for work their boss didn’t know they did.” Sadly if you produce 100 units of value and the boss only knows about 10 of them the guy who did 20 units but won’t shut up about it looks 2x as valuable even though he’s actually doing 1/5 the work. Trick is to be doing the most work and have people see it
Fully agree. You can be lazy AF, as long as you get a few key assignments done or overfulfill them. Everybody will be like ‘ooh, he so good’ and forget that you don’t do shit for 95% of the time.
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