Unchanged. Still gonna vote for her. I’m more enthusiastic now that she picked Walz over some of the other finalists though. I’ll probably buy some campaign stickers now in addition to voting.
Thank you for ending your 2024 campaign, Joe Biden. That was hero shit. That humility and duty to something bigger than himself is exactly what made him so much better as a leader than trump ever could’ve been. Joe has earned his retirement, and there’s a part of me that hopes that he becomes the first former president to die of badass causes, flipping his Vette doing a buck eighty or something lol. But not for another couple decades.
Can I ask why you can’t let them talk their nonsense? I know you don’t think you can change them so if you choose to hang out with them, why can’t you just let them be them? I’m not telling you that you should hang out with them, just that joining in on their discussion is a zero sum game.
I chose not to interact with family any longer and haven’t spoken to any of them in years. Not out of anger or spite but simply because none of us were getting anything positive from the relationship.
Sure. I honestly can’t control myself, I go with intentions of rising above it but then I can’t.
I suppose if you’re not trying to let people know that their views are not acceptable then you’re part of the problem.
I realise it’s futile and maybe there is an air of righteousness to my personality that I need to address. I just can’t sit there and allow people in our party to spew hatred without saying something.
I know for a fact that if we had a disabled family member competing in the paras then they would have a different view. Kinda like the only moral abortion is my abortion and I find that deplorable as I try to treat everybody the same whether you’re family or not.
I suppose if you’re not trying to let people know that their views are not acceptable then you’re part of the problem.
Yes, but how are you approaching this discussion?
I think there are different ways to handle this. On one hand you can be hostile and “give them what they deserve”. On the other hand you can engage in friendly arguments.
This is a story about how someone from the Westboro Baptist Church left because of the way that people engaged with her. www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVV2Zk88beY
What’s worth noting from this story, people that were hostile in their interactions with her only served to entrench her further in her ideals.
What caused her to change her mind were the people that had “friendly arguments” and made an effort to learn where she was coming from.
She listed out 4 key points when engaging in difficult conversations. I extracted/paraphrased some of what she said below:
Don’t assume bad intent (assume good or neutral intent instead) - Assuming ill motive almost instantly cuts you off from truly understanding why someone does and believes as they do. We forget that they’re a human being with a lifetime of experience that shaped their mind and we get stuck on that first wave of anger and the conversation has a very hard time ever moving beyond it.
Ask Questions - Asking questions helps us map the disconnect. We can’t present effective arguments if we don’t understand where the other side is coming from.
Stay calm - She though that “[her] rightness justified [her] rudeness”. When things get too hostile during a conversation, tell a joke, recommend a book, change the subject, or excuse yourself from the conversation. The discussion isn’t over, but pause it for a time to let tensions dissapate.
Make the argument - One side effect of having strong beliefs is that we sometimes assume that the value of our position is, or should be, obvious and self-evident. That we shouldn’t have to defend our positions because they’re so clearly right and good. If it were that simple, we would all see things the same way.
You can’t expect others to spontaneously change their minds. If we want change, we have to make the case for it.
I was already going to crawl over cut glass to vote for her/against Drumph. Walz doesn’t change anything for me, but if Internet comments are to be believed, picking him does make me slightly more optimistic about our chances come November.
Asking for things to be like when she was younger, to which I asked if she was a fan of Nazi Germany as she grew up post WWII.
Uh, what? Why the hell would you equate growing up in Germany after WWII with Nazis?
I guess I am wondering how can I come from a family that seemingly has no compassion for anybody and even less empathy for anybody different than them.
Maybe start with yourself? Recognize change is difficult, nostalgia is comfortable, and for someone who grew up pre-internet by several decades, the current world is probably overwhelming at times.
Your family’s comments on the number of black athletes and on paralympics sound sus, but you don’t exactly present yourself as a beacon of inclusivity either.
Self-reflection is a great place to start to grow empathy and understanding of others. Or to discover for oneself when it’s time to cut losses.
So the Nazi comment wasn’t so much Germany, but the fact that she thinks the world is broken now because we like to be inclusive and recognise our failings. I was merely pointing out that her era tried to kill all Jewish people.
I don’t think being inclusive should extend to hate speech against people of colour of disabled people, if that makes me exclusionary then I guess I am happy to exclude those antiquated views.
Self reflection is kinda why I made this post. To see how other people might handle these situations better than I clearly do.
“Her era” didn’t try to kill all Jewish people though. She was a child at a point in time after WWII. You’re trying to explain her entire personality with a falsehood. Why?
Non-Nazis can be racist. Sounds like she may be one such person. Still doesn’t mean she’s a Nazi.
My dad couldn’t be cooler. My grandmother and all her friends are very chill too. My grandfather is sometimes grumpy and weird about stuff, but shuts up or changes his mind about it pretty quickly. My mother, and probably that whole part of the family, is pretty conservative-right. Not very nice.
Man, I’m so sick of voting for people that I consider the lesser problem just because they aren’t actually evil. I’d rather have him as the presidential candidate because he’s closer to my preferences, and has a history that’s more aligned with his current stances.
But it’s whatever, the money tied into the two party system combined with the alternative parties never fielding anyone worth a damn for me to vote for means I’m stuck voting democrat again.
I’m not one to abstain because that’s just pointless to me. If I’m going to put up with all the fucking campaign crap, all the people running their damn mouths about it, I’m at least going to get my voice counted. If I could hermit away from the bullshit, go totally off grid and never have to see another human I didn’t want to, I’d abstain. But I can’t. So yet again, the fptp system is shit that I have to wade in.
But, yeah, him being VP makes the shit sandwich we’re being served by the two party system a teeny, tiny bit less nasty to swallow. He at least has a history of trying to do what he says he intends to, and his efforts as governor align with the social issues the same way as mine for the most part.
This is like the fireman saying "But it's whatever, these assholes with their cigarettes and fireworks combined with shoddy building materials and false alarms mean I'm stuck responding to the fire again. I'm not one to not respond at all, because that's just pointless to me. But…”
I could bring up a half a trillion dollars on climate change, reduced income inequality, gains in wages for working people even outpacing pretty historic inflation in 2022, etc etc fa la la, reasons why the Biden/Harris ticket was actually substantially better than most of the horseshit that is the modern Democrats, but "oh great I guess we gotta vote against fascism, it feels like this shit keeps happening" as a demoralizing thing as opposed to "holy shit the system is fucked how do we make some actual progress because we have to fucking live here" honestly just seems so childish and I feel like people are aware of the difference between the options and the gravity involved here
If getting up and voting is all that offensive to you, I can't imagine how you would react to the level of effort and risk it will take to actually make the system good, and fix the 2-party system problems you're talking about. It involves a hell of a lot more than showing up one particular day and being willing to pick "not the end of the world" instead of "yes end of world."
The fuck are you on about? I’m not a fucking fireman, I’m a citizen that’s spent over thirty years dealing with this shitshow that is American politics.
I’m struggling not to just call you an asshole because you know nothing about the kind of actions I’ve taken in those thirty years, organizing, protesting, literally getting my ass beat in gay rights rallies.
So, yeah, I’m fucking exhausted watching a lifetime of civil rights being attacked and democrats fumbling the fucking ball every damn time things get hard. And that’s ignoring that I don’t even agree with the half of the democrat platform because they’re capitalist stooges perfectly willing to bend over for oligarchs come donation time.
Man, fuck you and your smug shit. Level of effort and risk, my hairy ass. You take a fucking boot the the spine covering up some kid at a rally and come talk to me about effort and risk.
Yeah. I've been at rallies and protests (antiwar for me). I haven't done as much as I should have; I'm feeling pretty guilty about that now. Friends and family of mine have done more than I have, inside and outside of the political system.
I've also been friends with people who've tangled with the US system of immigration, whose heads might be on the block if Trump wins. That's why I am strongly opposed to your "the shit sandwich we're being served by the two party system" "don't even agree with the half of the democrat platform because they're capitalist stooges perfectly willing to bend over for oligarchs" stuff. One, it isn't true, in this election (although in general I'll agree about the Democrats). Biden was the first Democrat in decades who actually seemed to make some inclinations in favor of the American underclass. Two, the alternative right now is horrifyingly dangerous. That's why I use the fireman analogy -- like whether the building is clean or dirty or we need to bring it up to code is simply not relevant when it's going to burn down with your and my family inside.
If you were spending this much energy on saying "holy shit we gotta fix the system now more than ever", then sure, I'd be right there with you. You can let me know the protest and we can go and get our asses kicked together. If your energy is "ew ugh Democrats I hate this both parties amirite," then please excuse me if I explain in my own smug shit fashion why that is 1,000% objectively wrong as applied to this election. I am saying that because I do care about the very same vulnerable people you are trying to mobilize to make the point, somehow, in the opposite direction.
What is wrong with you? People being dissatisfied with politics is the very first step required to actually change anything. Yes, the current administration has done some good things, but none of it is nearly enough, and we should still be plenty mad about all of it.
Specific side note: you say reduce income inequality, but regular people are way worse off financially than their parents were and that’s not going away without some real change and we haven’t actually seen anything moving in that direction
People being dissatisfied with politics is the very first step required to actually change anything.
I don't think there is a shortage of dissatisfaction with politics in this country. There might be some imaginary country where if everyone would just get disaffected and cynical enough, the problems would get dealt with, but I think most of America's problem at this point is in the action piece.
Yes, the current administration has done some good things, but none of it is nearly enough, and we should still be plenty mad about all of it.
Plenty mad at the ones who are responsible, and invested in solutions that will move it in the right direction, yes. The reason I disagreed with the original poster is not that I don't want to fix things, it is that their proposed solution is mostly disaffectation instead of anything that will be that solution.
Specific side note: you say reduce income inequality, but regular people are way worse off financially than their parents were and that's not going away without some real change and we haven't actually seen anything moving in that direction
Low-income wages went up 32% since 2019, as a result of a stronger NLRB backstopping a bunch of union gains and the results of spending a trillion dollars of increased corporate taxes on domestic manufacturing. Covid inflation ate up most but not all of that boost; if Biden hadn't been handed an unfolding apocalypse with a lot of people still dependent on Covid assistance to live, I think it would have been a much more dramatic change, but it's definitely not nothing. He also spent about 10 times what anyone else has spent on climate change, putting us on track for a 40% reduction in emissions by 2030.
Is any of that enough? Fuck no. But it's also definitely not "haven't actually seen anything." You may not have seen anything, because I think a lot of Lemmy posters are employed in tech, and that sector has still been a shit show where people aren't keeping up with inflation. But the working class is actually doing substantially better than they were even before Covid, even under historic inflation. That's pretty fuckin unusual. And shitting on it (saying those working-class people don't represent "regular people"), or saying that because we haven't undone multiple generations of fuckery in the space of a couple of years, it doesn't count, is not something I agree with.
Low-income wages went up 32% since 2019, as a result of a stronger NLRB backstopping a bunch of union gains and the results of spending a trillion dollars of increased corporate taxes on domestic manufacturing. Covid inflation ate up most but not all of that boost;
So people are still as poor as ever? Sorry but I’m not going to throw a party for the bare minimum 🙄. I’m going to keep complaining and so should everyone else.
No, working-class people are 12% richer (inflation adjusted) than they used to be, and that's a pretty fuckin significant number given the obstacles of Covid and Republicans that were standing in the way. The numbers are, 32% gains, 20% inflation, equals 12% gain inflation adjusted.
"Keep complaining" in the sense of advocating for better, finding more people who will help you get those outcomes and trying to work out how to get them in charge, sounds great. "Keep complaining" in the sense of blaming the people who are fighting for you for not doing a better job, and implying that them trying to give you trillions of dollars and partially succeeding is basically the same as the people who want to end democracy (and also steal back that money and more), is stupid. In my opinion.
The person you were replying to originally said they were voting dem because they felt like they had to but that they weren’t excited to. That is a very reasonable stance being that we are living in the fucking gilded age. Maybe the poorest people are slightly better off but the richest people are still hoarding even more money/ control/ influence and the people you’re wanting to worship as saviors haven’t even remotely addressed it.
Where are we talking about addressing the ridiculous health care system that is entirely designed to extract money for rich people instead of prioritize outcomes. Where are we taking about addressing the increasingly expensive education system? (Forgiving student loans is a band aid that while helpful in the here and now does nothing to fix the real problems). I could go on and on. This is a country optimized for rich people and you are expecting people to celebrate crumbs from the table.
You really need to get off your high horse and understand that people really need to be given real reasons to feel optimistic about the future instead of saying “here are some numbers” while people can’t afford their rent and groceries.
Sailing… And the wind changed and I didn’t notice quick enough and got smscked it the head by the boom and would have fallen into the water if my buddy didn’t pull my stunned as back into the boat. I was pretty new to sail and learnt that Lesson the hard way.
Mother: Had a very old timey demeanor, perhaps due to her age when it all happened. Was nice but also had that obligatory TV Land level of strictness/sternness. Surprisingly understanding of issues of race, religion, disability, etc. but I had to come out of the closet several times since she didn’t really understand asexuality, which I guess based on her upbringing in the world’s most interesting place is understandable. She also remarked some of thetraditions I picked up pieces of later in life seemed convoluted, though did not elaborate on this commentary.
Father: Very different from my mum aside from being from a different part of the same area. He was carefree and I guess nice, but, for technical reasons, also distant from me. It was a very “implied love” type of dynamic. He was tolerant of almost everyone, but if someone were to call our family “all that and a bag of chips”, he consistently considered me the bag of chips, and the weird salt and vinegar kind, to use an analogy. He also showed signs of being annoyed with my special needs.
Grandfather: Most considerate person ever. He gets a perfect score in love and tolerance, even if he seemed quietly upset at my less-than-worldly habits.
Other grandparents: Never knew them that well, if at all.
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