Firstly, Palestinian representatives including Hamas have tried to come to the negotiating table, ever since the beginning. The response from Israel is bombing runs, artillery fire, and bad faith claims that Hamas will not negotiate.
Secondly, Palestinians do not want to exterminate anyone, they simply want to be free. The extermination/genocide thing is common myth presented by settlers who can’t imagine anything but genocide, as it’s how their own society has been built, and they project this on to all other societies.
Alleged genocide? Hamas isnt even hiding that their biggest goal is to eradicate Israel and all Jews living there. They openly say it since they came into existence. Their goal in the war they started now was to kill as many people (doesnt matter if they were civilians or even foreigners) as possible. What is alleged here? Its all official.
On the other hand, Israel’s goal is to kill Hamas, not civilians (even if edgelords on the internet wont see it that way and will scream apartheid and genocide without even know what that means), but that’s pretty hard to do when they’re cowardly hiding behind children.
Yes, Clyde… an alleged genocide - you know, the one that only exists in your white supremacism-addled mind? You know… unlike the very real genocide Israel has been perpetrating since 1949? Complete with applause from fascist garbage-peddlers like you?
Israel’s goal is to kill Hamas, not civilians
Riiiiight… and I suppose next you’ll be telling me the Nazis were only targeting “Jewish-Bolshevism” and not all Jewish people, eh fascist?
Israel won’t negotiate with peaceful protestors and won’t negotiate with hostage takers and won’t negotiate with passive captives. Just an idea, but maybe Israel is the one at fault for there being no negotiations.
Are you trying to suggest that Hamas were some how justified
I can’t speak for the person you were responding to… but yes - Hamas (and every other organisation Palestinians choose to support) has every goddamn right to fight Israel in whatever way that works. And no… I am in no way suggesting that - I’m stating it outright.
And offering nothing but slap-on-the-wrist apologetics for Israel’s decades-old genocide while demonising Palestinians when they fight back makes you (somehow) less of a monster?
If you think those 2 things are the same, then you might have brain damage.
Riiiight… those of us who know better calling attention to the fact that you libs only began worrying about the “slaughtering of innocent civilians” as soon as Israel was handed a miniscule taste of it’s own medicine are doing so because… “brain damage”.
Riiiight.
Here. This wasn’t written for you - it was written to satirize you.
It’s funny, because you have to invent those things about me, while I can link to where you actively advocated for the slaughtering of innocent civilians.
I guess that’s the best someone with your level of brain damage can do, though. So sad.
When you are trying to accuse someone of supporting the slaughtering civilians, and they aren’t supporting Israel in this particular conflict, then by definition they aren’t supporting the slaughtering of innocent civilians.
On the other hand, if you are criticizing Hamas for attacking valid Israeli targets in their fight for freedom, you are implicitly supporting the slaughter of civilians. i.e. you support the fact that Israel regularly bombs hospitals and evacuation routes.
You’re entitled to your opinion. I do wonder if it would change if it was your mum or brother or some other loved one that gets killed while minding their own business but whatever. In your mind, Hamas would be justified for it.
I do wonder if it would change if it was your mum or brother or some other loved one that gets killed while minding their own business
I am perfectly capable of understanding the point of view of a person who has had their entire family and/or community murdered, imprisoned or forced to flee - but having that happen to one over and over again for almost 80 years while privileged scum runs interference for the perpetrators because it’s simply more convenient to swallow the well-funded propaganda… that stretches the limits of even my imagination.
The full truth about what happened on or after 7 October could be established by an independent investigation, something Israel is unlikely to ever permit.
Yeah maybe they shouldn’t have kicked out Human Rights Watch. Then we might actually know what happened.
Respectfully, I don't know if, er, electronicintifada.net is exactly a good source for unbiased news on this topic. I wonder what the article says...
Israeli propaganda officials are reportedly upset...
It truly is a work of science to take "some government propaganda officials are reportedly upset" and somehow turn that into "The entire state of Israel is FURIOUS...".
Almost as if the headline was engineered to reinforce pre-existing biases or something.
I honestly don't know why people post obvious propaganda like this. It's like they don't even care about convincing anyone and are trying to undermine their own argument. It's not as if you can't find more than enough very critical coverage of Israel in reputable sources. Maybe they're so far down the rabbit hole, they genuinely think obvious propaganda outlets are more reliable than something like reuters.
They arrived at the kibbutz and kidnapped us, taking us to surrounding fields,” Lifshitz recalled. “The young men beat me and hurt me and took my watch and jewelry. They were riding motorbikes and took us to the entrance of a tunnel.”
Seems like if it were propaganda they would have omitted that. Seems legit.
It's difficult to square that with posting a headline that only mentions "humane treatment".
I'm sure you're smart enough to know that media bias can be expressed in a wide variety of ways. Hell, a lot of Fox News' reporting is itself perfectly fine, but then it'll be editorialized into painting an extremely sensational picture.
Israel’s clamped down on more legitimate sources and is even trying to kick of Al Jazeera (which has consistently led in terms of accuracy in journalism).
American news isn’t a good source for unbiased news either, but people still post it.
At this point we have to question how many deaths were even cause by Hamas. Killing a thousand people was pointless if the goal was to get hostages. I’m certain they killed a lot of people, but did they even kill the majority? There needs to be a UN lead investigation.
I remember when it came out that all the people Hamas killed at that rave were confirmed to be combatants, in other words they just flat out lied about Hamas doing war crimes while they themselves were doing mass genocide on a completely different group of people in response.
Needless to say that news went completely under the radar because it was inconvenient to the genocider world order’s narrative.
FWIW, the Hamas-run (as Western media outlets love to say) Gaza Health Ministry is known for having accurate numbers according to third-party international organizations.
Honestly she’d be better off fleeing back into PLO or Hamas protection because she’s gonna be on some zion-fascist’s hitlist for speaking the truth on international television
Refusing to condemn Hamas when they intentionally target civilians for atrocities won’t win Palestinians any supporters outside largely irrelevant internet communities. Israel does things that are clearly in the wrong all the time, and so does Hamas. It would be nice if people could hold the extremists on their own side to a minimal standard, even when it’s uncomfortable, but that lack of accountability is why we’re here.
After hearing earlier in the week that Israel was demanding the evacuation of all hospitals in Northern Gaza, it was clear that this hospital was bombed as promised. Claims that Hamas did it are clearly diversionary propaganda.
What she said wasn’t even that positive. She said that during her capture she was beaten to the point of not being able to breathe well, but after that she was looked after well and got the same food and water as the fighters/her captors, and even got shampoo.
If a statement like this is enough to infuriate Israel, then that’s pretty telling on their side
I have seen a single tweet by some random guy and it’s being used as evidence that Israel officials are mad at her testimony. Fucking what? Is this the state of journalism?
It’s surreal that she managed to get on national television and say this. Aren’t there whole departments of the government/military dedicated to making sure that that doesn’t happen?
Alright, cool! What is your strategy for the Palestinians to get their land back?
They peacefully protest - they get shot. They don’t even protest at all - they get shot. Do you want them to vote? Should the Palestinians call their representatives in Tel Aviv and say that they won’t be voting for them if they don’t end the occupation? Oh, I know - they should try to elect a third party to the government!
I don’t know at this point. But I know one thing: pouring gasoline on fire is not a strategy for extinguishing it.
I’ll ask you a non-rhetorical question: What were Hamas’ leaders hoping to accomplish when they sent gunmen to shoot civilians attending a rave party? What’s their strategy?
It was already being razed in slow motion. It was an open air prison in desperate poverty. It was a concentration camp that the demons in charge of Nazi Germany would have given their fullest approval.
Dunking on them, or doing idiotic “play stupid games, win stupid prizes!!!” shit is like watching Jewish people trying to escape the Warsaw ghetto in an uprising and then watching the Nazis exterminate them and then saying “Well! If they didn’t want this to happen, the Jews shouldn’t have resisted! They should have calmly and peacefully allowed themselves to be taken to the concentration camps!”
Palestine had the choice of a guaranteed slow death by drowning, or a quick end to the conflict - one way or another. Decades have gone by and nobody outside of the Middle East (apart from the DPRK and a couple others) really give a shit about Palestine. All the back and forth of “ohh where should we put our embassies? ohoho, should we acknowledge that Palestine is a state? ohoho!” achieved nothing. Ten million people could have protested across Europe every single day for decades for the liberation of Palestine, and it would have accomplished less than a single Palestinian soldier making a single rocket to be shot down by the Iron Dome. All the diplomatic shit means nothing. It has meant nothing for decades. Even peaceful protest of Israel in the form of BDS is basically outlawed in some places, and largely ineffectual regardless.
Palestinians shouldn’t, and almost certainly don’t, give a shit about the condemnations of western countries. About what western politicians are saying about them. It means nothing. Their strategies should be independent of “how it looks to outsiders”. A Palestinian could throw a pebble in the vague direction of an Israeli soldier and receive more condemnation from the media than Israel murdering a hundred thousand Palestinian civilians in bombing raids in retaliation. “If you didn’t want the bombing raid, you fucking stupid idiot, then MAYBE you shouldn’t have thrown that pebble! Play stupid games!” Who gives a shit about “how it looks” anymore.
I do have a question for you: let’s say Russia takes, say, Kramatorsk, surrounding it such that no civilians could escape. Imagine those civilians resisted, made Molotovs, fired improvised explosions at the Russians, and the Russians responded by carpetbombing Kramatorsk. Hundreds of civilians dead every single day. I then say “Well, looks like the civilians have guaranteed their own deaths, then. Well done, fucking idiots. Shouldn’t have fired those rockets at the Russian military if you wanted to live.” Would you be in my position, angry that you could possibly think that about a group of people valiantly resisting? How you could possibly look at the buildings being toppled by Russian bombs and think that was justified?
It’s not as black and white as this though. The Jews never claimed to want to genocide the Germans as Hamas does with Israel. Arafat had been using violent methods since he came to power in 1969, and Hamas continued his legacy.
It is no surprise that the other party also responds with violence. But Israel is not any less moral. It is simply more capable of violence.
Someone is stabbing you in the stomach. Do you struggle and fight back or do you lay down and die? If you fight back you might have a chance to make them stop, or you might get stabbed more and die quickly. If you lay down and die, you are sure to bleed out and die. You want to guarantee the genocide of the Palestinians by telling them to not resist.
Someone is stabbing me in the stomach, I don’t pick up an AR-17 and murder 200 random people. If this is hard to understand for you, we don’t have enough in common to continue this conversation.
I don’t know what hamas’ strategy is. I will say this attack will absolutely make settlers second guess whether they want to leave their comfortable life in Brooklyn to set up a new life on stolen land. Is that a good enough reason? I don’t know for sure, but to pretend that this is completely pointless violence is bullshit
Yes, everyone in the world on any side of any conflict wants power and power only. They have no picture of what they will do with that power or broader projects other than to have it. I say this over and over and over every time anything happens ever. It’s just a hard, thought-terminating truth but I’m willing to repeat it.
Not that I supposed attacking civilians, but there's basically nothing else to do. Terrorism has proven time and time again to be a tool of the oppressed who can't win in a straight fight.
Settlers aren’t civilians. They are non combat support for the occupation that the international courts have declared illegal. They are paid by the state of israel to squat on land they have stolen.
Everyone knew it was bullshit when they claimed it, but even now that it’s admitted to be false, it’s not going to have any effect on governments support of their genocide in Gaza.
The propaganda isn’t for the leaders of other countries, it’s so the voters in those countries don’t replace the leaders for funding genocides.
I’d like to think no leader of a country is really dumb enough to still be believing any claims made by the Israeli government, but it’s hard to tell these days
The author on German recognition of genocide in Ukraine:
recognized a famine that struck the Soviet Union as a genocide in Ukraine, putting it on equal footing with the Holocaust in a grotesque act of historical revisionism.
I’m going to go ahead and ignore his opinions on genocides. German guilt and the unique place that nazis and the holocaust hold in tbe history of human horrors explain their inability to crticise Israel quite sufficiently.
Making the Jewish people the sacred cows of victimhood is, imo, one reason noone in the west (especially Germany) is prepared to stand up to Israel right now. That isn’t holocaust denial. Tbh, I think competition over whose genocide was the worst is insulting to all the victims.
The problem here is that there was no intent to cause a famine at all, and neither was a specific group (like Ukrainians) specifically targeted for starvation once it was there. This isn’t some fringe opinion, this is the opinion of mainstream Western historians like Davies and Wheatcroft that actually research this stuff.
Putting the Holodomor (not a genocide) on the same level as the Holocaust (textbook genocide) is therefore relativizing the Holocaust. This was and is used to whitewash Nazis (and collaborators) and their crimes as basically a form of “self-defense” or liberation. This was already actual Nazi propaganda used by the Nazis, and is now state-sponsored propaganda used in e.g. the Baltic states to rehabilitate actual Holocaust perpetrators.
In May 2012, the foreign minister of Lithuania (left) honored Prof. Snyder in the week during which his government was reburying with full honors the 1941 Nazi puppet prime minister. The foreign minister is known for his antisemitic outbursts, his Hitler-Stalin “moustache comparison” and his defense of the Nazi’s reburial on the floor the nation’s parliament. The event has been seen as part of a wider pattern of high officials honoring western dignitaries who seem to be supporting — or can be presented as favoring — one or more components of Baltic revisionist history.
Timothy Snyder is the “double genocide” historian and author.
In July 2012, the Lithuanian foreign minister explained how Professor Snyder’s Bloodlands will be utilized during Lithuania’s (rotating) EU presidency in 2013, as part of a wider “Double Genocide offensive” in the EU. The use of Bloodlands for the nationalist narrative had earlier been proposed or explained by professors Saulius Sužiedėlis and Egidijus Aleksandravičius. Earlier (ab)use of ‘Bloodlands’ included a September 2011 book event held at the Lithuanian Foreign Ministry where passages were misquoted to defame Jewish partisan veterans.
I’m glad that we can get news from such obviously neutral and unbiased sources. I’m sure a site calling itself "Electronic Intifada"would never try to distort the truth. /s
Mate, I don’t know you or your politics, but the view you represent above I can’t let go without challenge.
A lot of people have no objection about receiving news about Palestinians from blatantly pro Israeli outlets. So yeah, there is one Pro Palestinian source, surely the balanced person would take info from both.
The double standards have to stop. Either object against both, or read both and decide for yourself.
But to always call out just Palestinian sources, it smells of cultural opression
A lot of people have no objection about receiving news about Palestinians from blatantly pro Israeli outlets. So yeah, there is one Pro Palestinian source, surely the balanced person would take info from both.
In the real world this is certainly true, there are way more Pro-Israel publications and listening to an opposing opinion is wise, but on Lemmy it seems that the vast majority of active persons have been unwilling to accept any Israel source, no matter how tangential.
The double standards have to stop. Either object against both, or read both and decide for yourself.
There’s nothing to say this person doesn’t, and given the amount of flak Israel related sources get it’s worth noting the bias here as well.
But to always call out just Palestinian sources, it smells of cultural oppression
I completely agree, but I am somewhat thrown by the choice of name by this publication. It just lacks a certain professionalism associated with good journalism. This isn’t to say it’s not a worthwhile source, it’s just not the best name. It’s kinda like if someone named their publication the Digital Revolution, the Uprising, or something similar, I’m just gonna cringe a bit and be skeptical from the start.
Looking online I found this site (mediabiasfactcheck.com/electronic-intifada/) which reviews the bias of various media sources. Based on this it’s just a group of international journalists with their publication based out of Chicago. Their information seems to be mostly from grass roots reporting or third and fourth party accounts.
EDIT: I wanted to quickly follow up, I’m reading through the article now and it’s a real shit show for navigating. In general I’m not familiar enough with the people they reference that it’s really hard to get a good read on this article. It’s kinda like if I said that a guy I know named Billy works at the city and he said he spoke with the Mayor who said that crime is on the rise, but the Chief of Police released a report to the contrary. Billy could be worthwhile, but I don’t know Billy and I can’t readily find good references to the Mayor’s statement.
Even the representation of the original referenced article by YNet is kinda shit. For example, they use a reference to Syrian Girl on Twitter who is referencing Yoav Zitun on YNet, who is referencing a paraphrased statement from Lieutenant Colonel A. Zitun states that the Lieutenant ordered the Fighters to shoot everything near the fence and later attacked their own installation so that other troops could move up to it. Syrian Girl makes the connection that Zitun’s reporting indicates that the military was blindly killing everything that moves (including their own troops) and EI runs with that sentiment.
In Zitun’s own article (included at the bottom of the EI article) it is clear that unrestricted firing was only in proximity to the fence itself but other bypasses of firing restrictions were approved separately as needed or were taken by Fighters without approval.
I used to think it was just a few bad apples but literally every time I do an antifascism one of them shows up to harass me in the comments. Instance blocking can’t come fast enough.
Oh that’s cool, I ran across the same website while making a comment to another user here.
I’m not super sure how reliable they should be considered to be honest. Looking at Mediabiadfactcheck.com they state that they are mostly factual in reporting but points to their lack of transparency on funding and strongly loaded emotional wording that may be misleading.
Based on the rest of the review it seems that they are really good about being very specific in their statements to avoid inaccuracies. Looking through this article and a few of their other articles they mostly focus on local accounts (X person said this, they live in Gaza) or third party references (Y on Twitter said this based on an article by Z at the BBC).
Another representation of this style of reporting would be this example:
Headline: “The Election Was Stolen!”
Body: New information has come out about an investigation into the legitimacy of the 2020 election. SOUTHERN boy on Twitter shows a video of FBI officials going into the election offices to perform an investigation. SOUTHERN boy also recently posted a potential connection between the investigation and the Trump 2020 election, but it hasn’t been picked up by the mainstream media.
We also spoke to Melissa Simpson in Mississippi and she says she and all her neighbors believe the election was stolen.
Since 2020 Trump has been telling everyone that, “The Election Was Stolen!” Does SOUTHERN boys information show the proof to Trump’s claim?
End example
Technically nothing I posted is false, I’m not making any claims myself, but anyone reading this would know the subtext to my article.
electronicintifada.net
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