Plenty of good or interesting points being made by both sides so I appreciate the conversations. I’m not too sure of what the problem is though when the discussion and article mostly revolves around public spaces. Usually there are gathering/event requirements around anything that constitutes pyrotechnics or the use of fire in a performance as that can be a hazard and special precautions need to be followed (fire extinguishers, etc). I’m not too sure about the laws currently on the books of most countries but I doubt many places allow you to just walk up to a street corner and start a fire whether the item you’re burning is your property or not.
I’m also confused on the double standard of what constitutes public or private when it comes to online media. I think this is something that needs to be fleshed out more in this day and age. For instance the article references a current law Denmark has on the books,
The ban is expected to be added to a section of the criminal code that bans public insult of a foreign state, its flag or other symbol.
Is social media/the internet a public space? If so, does posting a video recorded on private property and then uploading it to said online public space nullify the private property? I’ve seen a lot of people use this double standard only when it benefits them. For instance, if you typed out something online that’s considered “free speech” but violates civil law because of it’s context then they are in the wrong. On the flip side, if you record a video of someone having a conversation at a private backyard bbq and upload it, has the person broken a law when they weren’t in “public” during the recording?
The ban above is a great example to use. I, myself, feel like the criminal code goes a little too far with no public insults of a foreign state. How does that work out with the scenario I presented when the video gets released. I’m not sure if the criminal code even touches on the digital aspect of it, or who is at fault (the uploader, the person making the statements, or the hosting site).
Another ironic stance I’m seeing is the freedom/protection of expression being used to allow the public burning of books and condemning those who are against it. There are specific and recognized groups which receive protections under the law from discrimination and targeting of hate speech (the Denmark suggested law also covers bibles so it’s not just a Quran issue). Are we picking and choosing who these protections are allowed for based on our opinion on whether we agree with them or not?
For example if religious text burning is allowed for a public display, are all forms of expression then allowed? Burning a cross in front of an historically African American church, burning a pride flag at a pride march, burning baby dolls in front of an abortion clinic, political rivals, medical clinics that perform care for transitioning, hell even nazis burning disney shit outside of disney world?
If you’re of the belief that all of this should be allowed under the umbrella of freedom of speech/expression, what do you feel should be the governments stance on protection of it’s citizens from harassment in public spaces? Should the government even address these problems, or is it the same as no one should expect privacy in a public space so therefor expect persecution and harassment as well? How does this not effect businesses and organizations from being targeted with hostile forces? I’m reminded of the civil rights era, groups of white nationalists armed and congregating outside of a business to intimidate anyone of color from using the premises or social services. Groups will maintain these tactics and multiply if there is no resistance from a governmental stance, this will only heighten confrontations when opposing groups are formed to combat these scenarios leading to civil unrest, physical harm/altercations, and potentially death of innocent bystanders if something were to escalate.
I am not of any of those targeted groups, not a policy maker, and have an indifferent stance so I’m open to honest debate on everyone’s side. I also feel like the remarks made by OIC needs to be investigated,
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) called on its members to take appropriate action against countries where the Quran was being desecrated.
Any group that can be seen as calling for harm to members of that countries population should have legal ramifications in that country, but I’m unsure of what they mean when they say “appropriate action” which is why I said it should be investigated further.
Embassies are especially fair game (outside the grounds and in a safe fashion) . A protest in private is no protest at all.
So when the taliban make it illegal for women to go to school, citing the Quran….While I don’t think fire is the right thing to do, I absolutely agree it is a right to burn shit somewhere in front of the afghan embassy. If that includes a flag or religious text owned by the protestor, so be it.
However, people have the right to physically gain access to the buildings of use (service, home, food, etc) and safety first. Blah blah blah.
In general, the state should read public protest as a sign that local democratically elected officials are not aligning with the values of their constituents.
I don’t know about upholding time honored traditions, seems contradictory and subjective to me when your later stance includes an example of the Quran (another time honored tradition you don’t agree with). I don’t agree with making it illegal for anyone to attend school so it seems like a double edge sword that’s based solely on a personal morality which is hard to codify for an entire population.
I also agree a private protest is no protest at all, but it becomes complicated when you’re targeting a religious group’s texts just because bad faith actors are using it for control. Even burning their flag seems weird when it’s not the people of that country making the decisions but by the administration in charge (I’m not sure on what the target for the protest should be then in that case though).
Constitutionally you have to make a decision, I believe this has been debated and somewhat agreed upon though that access to a happy life (access to healthcare and freedom of religion) is more important than the right to “burn shit” as one has been documented and burning is not mentioned in most or any constitutions. Though freedom of expression is, which again becomes complicated when that expression is wished to be expressed through destruction of property (public/private). Again, I don’t have a particular stance on this subject but just pointing out contradictions in the arguments to better understand the ideology behind everyone’s thoughts.
Seems logical considering that people who burn it aren’t doing it without knowing the repercussions. Not saying the reaction it gets is correct or anything, it just seems to me that it is something being used to trigger reactions while putting other people’s lifes at risk.
I agree. However how do we explain people that are most likely burning books for hate speech/xenophobic reasons that they should stop doing that? This is a really hard subject and I completely agree that passing laws for this can be a slippery slope for other things.
Hate Speech laws get an L from me. Hate crime laws where a crime motivated by prejudice awards extra jail time is just a better solution. Think about what this is really saying - if you burn the Quran, muslims will riot… in Iraq. And the Iraqi government will condemn you. Really?
To the people defending this proposed law - hypothetically, if I were to set up a white board outside a mosque and draw the prophet, would you also be in favor of the police arresting me for … drawing?
I think this may already be illegal. You would be inciting and degrading members of a legal religion in Denmark, which has been against the law there since 1939. Blasphemy Laws were taken off the books in 2017, but this is a step back in that same direction. But then there is amendments to the constitution, I don’t fully understand.
Hinduism often has a belief in, “sanctity of the cow, … the belief that the cow is representative of divine and natural beneficence and should therefore be protected and venerated” (Brittanica).
One could argue that eating beef is inciting and degrading to [probably a select few] members of Hinduism.
I think there’s a difference between eating beef in a place where that’s the norm and eating beef at a group of people to make them angry or mock them.
I’m asking what your intentions are behind drawing on a whiteboard outside a mosque in the scenario not what your intentions were behind posing this hypothetical scenario. That part is obvious.
Sure it is. Intent is what separates murder from manslaughter for instance. Intent definitely matters here. Why are you having trouble elaborating on that aspect of your hypothetical scenario.
Fine, two scenarios: first, I’m doing it because I’m Islamophobic. Second, I’m doing it to test the limits of free speech. Can you tell the difference? No. That’s why it’s not relevant.
What you’re saying here doesn’t make any sense. What you said previously made sense but lacked nuance or any deeper understanding of the situation you proposed yourself.
Perhaps you think blatant, ignorant bigotry and “testing freedom of speech” are the same thing, which explains your response, and shows you the reasoning behind mine.
Oh boy. No, I don’t think they are the “same thing” I’m saying you can’t infer motivation just by observing therefore the motivation isn’t relevant. Try and keep up, or don’t.
You’re discussing the law and being arrested. Intent absolutely matters in this context which is why I brought up other examples of where intent matters as murder/manslaughter, hate crimes, assault versus self defense, etc. You seem quite confused about a topic that you brought up on your own…
But you defined the intent in your previous comment and laws/courts take intent into account when determining whether they’ve been violated or not.
If it can’t be known then your entire question/scenario is irrelevant and pointless because it could never apply to the real world. For someone who keeps talking about confusion and not following the conversation, you seem to lack even a basic understanding of what’s being talked about.
The counterargument is that she said it wasn’t consensual. Holy shit, how many people in your life should think about pressing charges against you if that’s how you think consent works?
Since you are making this personal, I won’t argue with you. However if you are curious, you can check my other comments to the ones that are actually giving arguments without being personal.
There’s a significant difference between claiming some things was spontaneous and actually getting consent. This guy wasn’t in a relationship with the player where this type of behavior would have been previously cleared. He’s not even claiming that he asked permission. In this case you would have to assume mutual spontaneous consent. That is what he’s claiming. However, one party has clearly said it wasn’t mutual consent. So now you either have to assume the victim is lying or you take the logical path and realize that there’s photographic evidence of a powerful figure, who doesn’t claim to have asked for consent, assaulting a female athlete and showing no regard or remorse for that behavior.
First of all thanks for an actual argument without throwing insults and such.
You are right indeed, about actual consent, spontaneousness/ spontaneous consent. One party says it was spontaneous consent and the other party said it was not, so how do we as the internet observer what it truly was?
I mean, certainly if it was not, he should resign and such. I would like to say though, I never said that there was no photographic evidence. This matter is an she versus he said.
No man. Use your fucking brain. This is either one of the most intellectually dishonest arguments I have ever seen or you are truly an idiot.
You're saying the equivalent of "How do we know person A punched person B, and it wasn't person B who slammed his face into person A's fist? shrug We as internet observers just can't know."
It's disgustingly dishonest. Everyone is trying to tell you this and you keep retreating further. Step out of your shoes or whatever personal reason is causing you to have this cognitive dissonance and look the situation honestly. You should see that your posts defending this have been pathetic and dishonest.
Dude, can you argue without resorting to insults? All it does is make you look desperate because you can’t focus on the subject, you have to attack the individual.
Dude, can you argue without resorting to insults? All it does is make you look desperate because you can’t focus on the subject, you have to attack the individual.
My point is, people here pretend as if they know everything what has truly happened. While we are just observers, we do not know actually has been said at that right moment (or do we?). I do not justify anything, never claimed I was justifying anything.
Certainly he can he an ‘‘POS’’ but I don’t know. I don’t know him that much, do not follow him and do not know him personally.
Yes, we can see he did that. Yes, she said that afterwards. She showed no signs of it at that moment.
I’m not saying she’s lying, I’m saying that the people on here pretend to know everything.
Personally, I’m curious how this goes. What more evidence I want? Nothing. Don’t think there’s more unless we can actually get a video with sound where we hear what both of them say.
Honestly? I don’t know what to believe. She could’ve as what was called “spontaneous agreement” and later on regretted and now saying she doesn’t want it.
Or she did not want it from the start but again how should I know when - I was not there to hear it?
I can say “I believe her” and then I’d be wrong. I can say “I don’t and believe the guy” and be wrong. Doesn’t change a thing. You are making this personal just like the other two.
My point still stands, people here pretend to know everything while we all were not there hearing it all.
So for what’s worth it - I do want to thank you for the respectable discussion. However I don’t like when things become personal in a discussion because that’s when the actual argument and discussion fades away.
I hope though, whatever happens, it will be with full transparency and the right person will be punished.
When someone in a position of power and authority does something like this to someone who is under their power, it is 100% inappropriate. The person in a position of power is always at fault, ESPECIALLY if that person then accuses the other of lying. This should not be a debate and I’m disappointed in your apparent lack of judgement. Do better.
Yes, we can see he did that. Yes, she said that afterwards. She showed no signs of it at that moment.
please explain what kind of “sign” you are thinking of.
please then make an earnest attempt to empathise: you are in a public situation, your boss, who has an immense amount of control over your future career, makes an unwanted sexual advance. how confident do you feel enacting the “sign” in point #1
please then rate, on a scale of 1-10, where 1 is “not at all convincing” and 10 is “completely convincing”, the “sign” in point #1, and the public statement after the fact that the kiss was not consensual, in terms of you believing that Hermoso did not consent. in rating the public statement after the fact, please bear in mind the risks of the public statement to Hermoso (including the lawsuit mentioned in this article, the potential career damage in point #2, and the potential harm that thhe player is likely to cause to people who have experienced sexual assault, were she to be discovered to have been lying about not consenting)
I’m saying that the people on here pretend to know everything.
This is absolutely true when dealing with tribalists. You’re either with them or against them; there is no in-between.
Just look at everyone getting mad at you for even suggesting we don’t know all the facts. Sad, but that’s what this generation has become. Rabid fools desperate to fit in with other rabid fools.
If they’re mad about an opinion over the internet, well that’s on them. Nowadays it’s pretty much follow the hype train and pretending to know everything.
They can downvote me to oblivion, that’s fine. It’s internet point which does not mean anything at all and especially here on Lemmy. I can still do everything. So it matters even less.
Majority doesn’t even have a good argument point, if I remember well, there were only one or two people who had. The rest didn’t and went direct into personal matters, which isn’t a good thing for an argument.
I quite much forgot about this thread/ argument until, I saw your comment.
It's not empiricism. He's disguising nihilistic cynicism as skepticism.
His argument boils down to he think that we should doubt someone when they tell us their own feelings. He's claiming that if we don't have 100% certainty about something being true, then we have 0% certainty. It's almost a retreat into solipsism, suggesting that because we can't know with perfect certainty, then we have perfect uncertainty.
Doubting that someone who says "I didn't want to be kissed" didn't actually want to be kissed is to outright call them a liar. It's victim blaming. He's just trying to mask that behind a false veneer of skepticism and mental acrobatics because he knows that his position actually sounds appalling when presented straight-forward.
I don't really know what that means... It's just a really weird thing to comment on a post. Even if I were autistic, how would that matter and what effect would it have on the discussion?
The way you focus on concepts like empiricism, nihilism, solipsism, other isms, instead composing a straightforward reply that is to the point comes across autistic. The other guy’s doing the same so maybe it’s just typical conversation on here.
A straightforward reply wouldn't work in this situation because OP did not make a straightforward comment. So we use those terms because they are rhetorical terms that describe the techniques the original poster was using. It's easy for someone like OP to make a dishonest argument and mask it as an honest one, so we are calling him out on that dishonesty by showing the flawed arguments for what they are.
I think it's not something typical of conversation here, but it is typical of rhetorical conversation, and you'll hear this kind of speech whenever people discuss logical and rhetorical arguments.
While we are just observers, we do not know actually has been said at that right moment
Empiricism: the theory that all knowledge is derived from sense-experience.
The argument seems to be that we cannot make any determination on this unless we have first hand knowledge and have experienced the event directly ourselves.
The argument seems to be that we cannot make any determination on this unless we have first hand knowledge and have experienced the event directly ourselves.
Using this methodology makes all concept of justice moot. If we can't make a determination without firsthand knowledge, then we can't ever prosecute or judge anyone but our own selves. No reasonable argument can ever be made if this is the foundation one relies on. Thus, it is an absurd retreat into solipsism.
Yeah, it’s just an indicator that a bunch of random people have read your posts and independently decided you’re talking absolute shite. Probably nothing.
A person in a position of power does something unwanted to another person underneath his/her power. Then the person in a position of power claims the person underneath lied about consent. This is always the fault of the person in power. Shame on you for not having better judgment. Be better.
That was the risk he chose to take when he took advantage of the power dynamic. None of us get to choose the severity of punishment for bad actions but we are responsible. And there is no question he is at fault here. You can reasonably argue the severity of punishment but no one should be questioning his accountability here.
Wrong. The power dynamic is not equal. Therefore it is impossible to “figure out a solution on their own.” Your profound ignorance around abuses of power are shocking. Get help.
Edit: I love how what appears to be a bunch of men on the internet defending the sexual assault of a woman beneath the male in the power dynamic. And all of her colleagues and teammates are defending her, not him. A story as old as time itself.
He abused the power dynamic. Cry about it all you want, but the guy who grabs his dick in front of a minor after a victory and who thinks he can sexually assault anyone he wants just fucked around and found out. Finally.
There is something to be said about missing perspectives from outsiders and even the ease of digital modifications of images, in a completely different situation that this mushbrained loser is trying to apply to this one for some reason.
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