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Koof_on_the_Roof , to world in BBC News - Luis Rubiales: Spanish FA will take legal action over Jennifer Hermoso 'lies'

This is how they behave when the eyes of the world are watching…

athos77 ,

Notice how her entire team immediately took her side? This isn't the first time he's done something like this, and she's not the first person on the team he's done it to, either.

its_prolly_fine , to worldnews in Denmark plans jail term for burning Quran in public

Why not just make a law against inciting acts of aggression? Filming yourself burning religious texts is purposely trying to piss people off. That way it would cover anything that has the same goal without being just about religion. Freedom of expression, unless it’s just trying to make others angry.

Lets the law handle each case individually.

lukzak ,
@lukzak@lemmy.ml avatar

How about we strive for a society where people can burn their own property without having to worry about violence?

The islamists that react violently are only proving the point of the people burning the books. Tbh if you try to hurt someone for just burning SOMETHING THEY OWN, maybe you don’t deserve to live in a first world country.

its_prolly_fine ,

And if you purposely antagonize people who are known for killing people who disagree with them, you don’t either. It’s like yelling fire in a crowded room, for any reason other than there being a fire.

Yeah it’s ridiculous, but they aren’t just burning their own property. They are filming it with the purpose of causing problems. And it did. They can’t do whatever they want if it endangers others. In an ideal world no one would react with physical violence to words. But we don’t live in that world.

I’m not a fan of that law existing, but I can see why they would want it.

lukzak ,
@lukzak@lemmy.ml avatar

The burners are not causing problems. They’re exposing a sickness that these individual people have in their minds. A healthy person doesn’t try to hurt someone just because they’re offended.

These sick people who would hurt someone for burning a book are the same sort that would throw acid on a woman for some bullshit medieval family honor, for example.

Better to incite them and get them arrested and perhaps even deported before they’re allowed to hurt anyone. It shows you won’t tolerate it in your society.

Hell, it may even encourage more moderate Muslims to move to that country if they know that the society doesn’t tolerate the actions of the small, insane minority. The Muslims that believe in liberal ideals like freedom of expression are exactly the type of immigrants that make a society stronger and we should encourage them.

All this law will do is allow that unhinged mental illness to rest, in secret, before coming out in some other toxic way.

I’m not saying that the book burners are being entirely altruistic here. I wouldn’t be surprised if they honestly hated all Muslims. But it is their right to express it without hurting anyone. This feels more like a “broken clock is right twice a day” sort of situation.

its_prolly_fine ,

I get that. But I think the danger is from outside the country, so they aren’t going to be arrested.

lukzak ,
@lukzak@lemmy.ml avatar

They can be arrested or just refused entry if they are known to be connected to extremist groups. They should be screened as any other person traveling to Denmark.

If we let them, especially external actors, influence our domestic policy, then they win. Look at what happened to the USA after 9/11. The terrorists won and it’s proof that terrorism works. Not only do the people capitulate to the terrorists, but bad domestic actors use it as a means to push some other (anti freedom) agenda.

The alternative is just laying down and letting medeival assholes decide domestic policies of the secular world. Don’t let terrorism win.

Cataphract ,

Personally this feels like a contradiction.

They can be arrested or just refused entry if they are known to be connected to extremist groups. They should be screened as any other person traveling to Denmark… bad domestic actors use it as a means to push some other (anti freedom) agenda.

State surveillance measures taken after 9/11 is part of the anti-freedom agenda to me. To effectively screen or establish connection to an extremist groups requires enhanced surveillance for effectiveness and arresting anyone with even a distant connection seems dubious (what type of connection, family, friends, being tricked into going to one meeting, etc). The people defining what an “extremist group” is can also be nefarious if bad actors are in play (think of the anti-communism/socialism scare that is portrayed in the recent Oppenheimer flick).

barsoap ,

They’re exposing a sickness that these individual people have in their minds. A healthy person doesn’t try to hurt someone just because they’re offended.

Exposing and healing are not the same thing. They are fanning the flames, reducing neither the behaviour nor its causes. They’re handing out meth to junkies.

Spzi ,

I argue that law should be used against those who react to these burnings in an aggressive manner. Violence is already covered.

If they stop taking unnecessary offense, I assume the burnings will stop too.

synae ,
@synae@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Not necessarily, if I were to burn a Bible and no one cares but they still continue revoking abortion access (and further bigotry) then I will probably keep burning bibles ib protest of the christofascists.

its_prolly_fine ,

Yeah, but it’s making other people aggressive outside of the country. So its not very helpful, you can’t police people in other countries. This whole thing is like pedestrians walking in a crosswalk without looking for cars. Yes, the pedestrian has the right way, and the car should stop. But being right doesn’t really matter if you’re dead.

shiveyarbles , to worldnews in Denmark plans jail term for burning Quran in public

That’s messed up, whatever happened to separation of church and state

CmdrShepard ,

That’s a US law.

ThatHermanoGuy ,

lol, Denmark has an official state religion!

PuppyOSAndCoffee , to worldnews in Denmark plans jail term for burning Quran in public
@PuppyOSAndCoffee@lemmy.ml avatar

Burn whatever you want, hate whoever you please. It is unpleasant however better than the thought police sending you to the ice prisons for ungood ideas. This idea that censorship stops anything but innovation and creativity is ludicrous.

ghosts , (edited )

deleted_by_author

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  • Assian_Candor ,
    @Assian_Candor@hexbear.net avatar

    Better for racists lol

    PuppyOSAndCoffee ,
    @PuppyOSAndCoffee@lemmy.ml avatar

    Historically the walk is far too short for the state to position itself as the victim of your hate. And then what?

    Assian_Candor ,
    @Assian_Candor@hexbear.net avatar

    Yfw when you can’t say slurs without consequences angery

    PuppyOSAndCoffee , (edited )
    @PuppyOSAndCoffee@lemmy.ml avatar

    I agree…civil society should be intolerant of hate and its idols. The state, however, as a control structure, is a terrible judge of whom to hate and whom to love; Danes should be proud their government has done better than most…and strive to keep it that way.

    The state must protect all its inhabitants from physical harm, educate on tolerance and empathy, and from there, abdicate who to love and hate to its citizens.

    xilliah , to worldnews in Denmark plans jail term for burning Quran in public

    OK I sort of get it, not that I agree with it, but 2 years in jail? That’s absurd.

    I’m from a conservative area and have heard countless stories of people who were traumatized in the name of Christianity. If one of those people feels like desecrating the Bible then it’s just a form of personal expression. If that upsets you well then start a conversation with them and learn from each other. Putting someone in jail is not the solution.

    I’m just saying Christianity has a broad spectrum and has changed a lot over time. Even from a Christian point of view you must value criticism in order to find the way forward. That counts for all religions. And if you don’t think so, you’re just arrogant.

    barsoap ,

    If one of those people feels like desecrating the Bible then it’s just a form of personal expression.

    If the planned Danish law is anything like the German ones (age-old, introduced after the 30years war) then that’s absolutely fine. You can even do it publicly on SatanCon. Ritual blasphemy is just as much a protected religious expression as religious reverence, meaning that Christians aren’t even allowed to revile you for it in a manner suitable to disturb the public peace.

    Where things get iffy is doing it in front of a Church just to piss them off. Rule of thumb: If you’re protesting a religious institution, keep religion out of it. E.g. back in the 60s people were protesting against the Churches’ backwards sexual morals by kissing in front of churches. Much more effective than burning the Malleus Maleficarum. That’s more suitable for an inquisitor to do in private to cleanse themselves.

    Showroom7561 , to worldnews in Denmark plans jail term for burning Quran in public

    Does this apply to all works of fiction, or only those believed by extremist groups?

    I can understand not being allowed to burn historically significant documents and books, but mass-produced books are just cheap fire tinder.

    ikidd ,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    If this goes through, my wife might get her wish when I disparage the Harry Potter books.

    I’m too pretty for prison.

    lasagna ,
    @lasagna@programming.dev avatar

    Just get an ass infection.

    Zehzin ,
    @Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

    If a book is important to one or more ethnic groups, burning it is a hate crime, period. Being mass produced has nothing to go with it.

    c0mbatbag3l ,
    @c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world avatar

    Islam isn’t an ethnic group, and your logic is insane.

    Can’t burn a dictionary cause one or more ethnic groups consider it important. Or the Bible.

    Hate crime? Jesus get a grip.

    generalpotato ,

    I guess anti-senitism isn’t a thing in your book then?

    Oh wait you burned all of yours away.

    NuPNuA , (edited )

    Jews are an odd outlier as it’s both an ethnicity and a religion and one doesn’t automatically indicate the other. You can have people with no ethnic link who are Jewish by dint of conversation to the religon, and ethnicly Jewish people who are entirely athiest. anti-Semitism is about racism against ethnicly Jewish people, not criticism of the religion.

    generalpotato ,

    You also missed the entire point of my comment, but keep going. Very enlightening.

    explodicle ,

    If you don’t understand why this refutes your comment, then you just need to keep re-reading it.

    generalpotato ,

    Or maybe you (and others here) need to re-read my response to understand what the point of it was. I understand what the person was saying, just don’t think bickering over how the Jewish people are a “multinational ethnic group” is relevant to the discussion.

    explodicle ,

    I’m not claiming that anyone missed a point because I understand what is being argued.

    generalpotato ,

    Clearly.

    Showroom7561 ,

    Not really true, but I guess it depends on the country.

    In the United States at least, burning your own book, flag, or whatever is legally protected free speech. Just as long as you aren’t destroying someone else’s property.

    Context also matters. Burning bibles during a religious service is probably a thin line.

    sndmn ,

    Nobody is coming for your copy of Mein Kampf

    Zehzin , (edited )
    @Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

    Nazis aren’t an ethnic group. Burn the books, and the nazis.

    explodicle ,

    Islam isn’t an ethnic group.

    Zehzin ,
    @Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

    When did I say it was? It is the primary religion of a lot of ethnic groups that are being persecuted.

    NuPNuA ,

    Everything is important to someone, why do particular groups get privilege just because they’re a religion. Should we ban the burning of Star Wars DVDs as that’s a huge franchise with lots of hardcore fans who may get upset? Should it be illegal for me to burn a copy of Action Comics #1 because it’s important to comic fans?

    Zehzin , (edited )
    @Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

    To answer your rhetoric question: Because people believe in it for some reason. If millions of people were crazy enough to think Star Wars happened and molded their lives after it, and you started burning Star Wars DVDs because you despise Star Warite refugees, yes, people would be very upset at you for doing that.

    People are clearly burning religious text to demonstrate their contempt to a group of people, it’s the definition of a hate crime.

    superkret ,

    The uncomfortable truth is that it matters whether the group in question contains enough people willing to kill indiscriminately if you upset them too much.

    IchNichtenLichten ,
    @IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

    Islam is an ethnic group?

    barsoap ,

    No, it’s a religion. But multiple ethnic groups are Muslim.

    Franzia ,

    Hate speech, not a hate crime. In this case, the hate speech is criminal.

    Pyr_Pressure ,

    How about no burning anything in public? It’s a stupid thing to do and proves nothing, risks starting unintended fires, or people injuring themselves, etc.

    Showroom7561 ,

    LOL. Of course, I don’t advocate for burning things just to burn things.

    I just don’t think that burning your own books should be considered a crime.

    synae ,
    @synae@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    Burning stuff is a classic protest move though, and that shouldn’t be restricted either - within safety limits of course; i.e. Don’t leave your burning flag, book, bra, whatever where it might destroy unrelated stuff.

    argv_minus_one , to worldnews in Denmark plans jail term for burning Quran in public

    The centre-right government said it wanted to send a signal to the world.

    That Denmark negotiates with terrorists?

    Flyswat ,

    You misunderstood the article. They plan on jailing them now.

    argv_minus_one ,

    Jailing the protesters, not the terrorists, no?

    Faydaikin ,
    @Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

    Depends on how they plan to handle it. If a new law was formed specifically around the Quran, there might be a case.

    But if it’s outlawing book burning in general, that’s quite another story.

    Personally, I don’t understand why a law like that isn’t already in place after WW2.

    argv_minus_one ,

    But if it’s outlawing book burning in general, that’s quite another story.

    “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” The intended target of this law is crystal clear.

    Faydaikin ,
    @Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

    Absolutely. Which is why we’ll look at the wording of such a law very carefully.

    argv_minus_one ,

    Then I envy you, that your legislators are competent and honest enough to do so.

    Faydaikin ,
    @Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

    The Jury’s still out on that one. We’ll have to see, if the Bill should come to pass.

    eyy , to worldnews in Wagner boss Prigozhin killed in plane crash in Russia

    What a disappointing guy. The least he could have done was take out Putin before he died.

    Awoo , (edited )

    If Putin dies you’re not getting someone nicer, you’re getting someone significantly worse. Of the United Russia party he’s pretty much a moderate force within the party compared to the alternatives. And there isn’t any other party that would magically assume power if he died.

    jackmarxist ,
    @jackmarxist@hexbear.net avatar

    I Wish the CPRF was based and epic

    Awoo ,

    We all do, there’s definitely a faction within it that’s pretty good but the top is dogshit. They wouldn’t win if Putin was killed though, political assassinations tend to boost support for the parties that receive them, only really worthwhile when it would hurt a party organisationally such as small parties where one person can be very critical. But that’s not happening with any massive party.

    smattering82 ,

    What if they did take over would you move to Russia and live in the communist “paradise?”

    bagend ,

    The USSR wasn’t a paradise (communism isn’t magic) but it was better than anything in Russia before or since. It’s not like turning to capitalism in the 90s made the country a utopia.

    smattering82 ,

    So yes?

    rikudou ,

    Nah, he’s just another Russia’s tzar, this time under a different name, but still tzar. And when he dies, shit is gonna go down in Russia. And I personally can’t wait to watch it. No one is replacing Putin for quite some time after he’s done. Maybe on paper, but in reality Russia will be all kinds of fucked. Have I mentioned already that I’m looking forward to it?

    sheogorath ,

    Watch him showing up at Kremlin proclaiming himself Peter the Great reborn.

    StalinwasaGryffindor ,

    I mean, he did try a coup that failed miserably because he had no support. Even if he would have want to try to kill Putin, there’s no reason to believe he was capable of it

    Franzia , to worldnews in Denmark plans jail term for burning Quran in public

    Hate Speech laws get an L from me. Hate crime laws where a crime motivated by prejudice awards extra jail time is just a better solution. Think about what this is really saying - if you burn the Quran, muslims will riot… in Iraq. And the Iraqi government will condemn you. Really?

    CascadeOfLight , to worldnews in Denmark plans jail term for burning Quran in public

    When you really think about it burning a book is, in fact, censorship theory-gary

    HowMany , to worldnews in Denmark plans jail term for burning Quran in public

    Denmark… do you believe in fairies?

    No.

    Then quit acting like it.

    anthoniix , to worldnews in Denmark plans jail term for burning Quran in public

    Fuck the Quran

    Goblinmancer , to worldnews in Wagner boss Prigozhin killed in plane crash in Russia

    Guess you could say the plane was denazified.

    LarkinDePark ,

    Why?

    Nakoichi ,
    @Nakoichi@hexbear.net avatar

    Because Prigozhin was a Nazi.

    LarkinDePark ,

    Are you sure? Never heard that before.

    pingveno ,

    Thug for hire is more like it. And now Wagner is exporting it to Africa, thugging it up for dictators, military or otherwise.

    eatmyass ,
    @eatmyass@hexbear.net avatar

    Dmitry Utkin (who was also on the plane) is definitely a nazi, and Wagner has a lot of links to far-right elements in Russia. Wagner itself is supposed to reference Richard Wagner, Hitler’s favorite composer

    so Prigozhin is definitely in bed with nazis but idk anything about his actual beliefs

    barsoap ,

    Richard Wagner

    Also the guy Nietzsche ghosted because he couldn’t stand his antisemitism.

    …sorry random association the first existentialist gets maligned all too often. “Talks about nihilism and how it needs to be overcome == nihilist”, yeah sure.

    commiewithoutorgans ,
    @commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net avatar

    redsails.org/kriegsideologie/redsails.org/losurdo-und-telepolis/

    I spam redsails but it’s such a convenient site. I read The Gay Science as one of my first philosophy books, but I completely turned around because of Losurdo

    barsoap ,

    The antimodernism thing is like the least charitable take one can have on Nietzsche but at least it’s not one that’s based on his sister’s stuff.

    Some quick thoughts:

    His stance on democracy has to be understood in the context of its days, much less developed than now, and in the Kaiserreich also very much class-based, ruled more by mass psychology than consideration of what actually good politics would be – on both sides, though I won’t deny that the nobles and bourgeois of course needed their wings clipped. At the same time he’s very much an elitist in the sense of, erm, personal improvement, sees the need for the individual to transcend the forces acting around them and develop their own path as sublation of everything, contrast that with the political forces in parliament being not even close to that but simple thesis-antithesis with no sign of actually starting to go beyond that and you have an easy case for “Nietzsche simply didn’t believe in the process democracy”.

    To all this he prefers “hierarchy” [Rangordnung]

    Is that really the term Anglos use as a translation. “ranking” or even “precedence” might’ve been a better choice. Honestly just translate it literally: “Rank order”. In any case and I won’t dwell on it: Nietzsche always describes these rank relations as in flux, not set in stone, and makes fun of tying it to inheritance. I don’t see him at odds with Bakunin, here, who will readily bow to the authority of the bootmaker.

    At the same time he warned of the dangers of not having such a thing, of insisting on some moral-metaphysical notion of inviolable human equality, and we just recently had the opportunity to see that kind of thing in action: I’m speaking of the masses of people unwilling to bow to the authority of virologists and epidemiologists, going “nu-uh I did my own research”, meaning they read some bullshit blog somewhere. Nietzsche himself might’ve rather thought about the Jacobine terror and stuff.

    Overall, when reading Nietzsche I recommend starting with Thus spake Zahatrustra, as a work of philosophical mysticism, get to grips with what it means for the individual mind, and interpret the rest in that light, and specifically consider whether he might not have framed a lot of things very differently had he witnessed Nazi Germany.

    A parallel which comes to mind here is Plato, who likely would be similarly at odds with the modern scientific method as Nietzsche is with the democratic process, stressing the importance of intuition as to not de-humanise the process: Are we, as peoples, really engaging in democracy, or do we let a system of mass psychology rule us?

    Lastly, my psychological armchair: Was he someone who often felt alone in a crowd? Yeah, probably. Clowns to the left, jokers to the right.

    commiewithoutorgans ,
    @commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net avatar

    I’m not sure what your intention is with this comment if I’m being honest but it just seems like a broad defense of Nietzsche based in misunderstanding the claims of Losurdo, honestly. Nietzsches obsession with the individual in that way and unwillingness to accept change outside of growing toward his übermensch are a basis for the most anti-communist philosophy.

    If I’m honest, I just doubt you’ve really read Nietzsche as deeply as Losurdo

    barsoap , (edited )

    Oh I certainly haven’t read him as deeply as a Nietzsche scholar. OTOH your favourite Nietzsche scholar also isn’t the sole authority on Nietzsche. All I’m saying is that I don’t share Losurdo’s interpretation there.

    As to anti-communist – why would I care, I’m an Anarchist. And yes Kerry Thornley definitely had a point when he said:

    […] Universal Enlightenment [is] a prerequisite to abolition of the State, after which the State will inevitably vanish. Or — that failing — nobody will give a damn.

    This is because a stateless society cannot be built on anything but grassroots. And for those grassroots to support proper societal homeostasis, to not degenerate into or be co-opted by reactionary forces, we need a decent percentage of Übermenschen, people who can analyse the material conditions beyond good and evil, beyond master and slave morals, and share that understanding. Let’s say at least one in twenty so that everyone knows one, personally, face to face. Ideally, everyone, but I doubt that’ll ever be the case because division of labour.

    boboblaw ,
    @boboblaw@hexbear.net avatar

    As to anti-communist – why would I care, I’m an Anarchist.

    Lol. Lmao, even.

    I’d think you’d care for practical reasons, at least. Has there ever been an instance of severe persecution of communists without lumping in anarchists as well? I’m seriously asking; I just know that the Red Scare targeted anarchists just as much as communists, but idk if that changed at all over the course of the century.

    barsoap ,

    I’d think that in the practical sphere it’s irrelevant what a philosopher says as there’s always going to be, say, a sister, which will bend the philosophy to whatever opinion the anti-intellectuals in charge like to hear.

    The solution is to have a populace informed enough to not put such people in charge.

    As to our own Red Scare over here: Yes the Radikalenerlass also targeted Anarchists but it was abolished before I started shool, or the GDR collapsed. What gets you in trouble nowadays is (as the constitution intended from the start) trying to undermine the free and democratic basic order and I don’t do that. I want to radically expand it, in a Kantean sense my politics are those which make it a natural law, see homeostasis.

    commiewithoutorgans ,
    @commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net avatar

    One more point here, made clearly by Marx, is that understanding how systems shape humans both as individuals and as a society is not de-humanising, it’s possibly the most humanising something can be. To be human is to be shaped entirely by your environment and your reactions to it simultaneously, and mass psychology is how we come to have anything remotely psychological to be. It’s finding how to live as both a human individual and a human who partakes in, creates, or grows away from mass psychologies. This misunderstanding is exactly Nietzsche hate for the masses. He attempted to understand HIMSELF as not human in this way and create a philosophy around it, while he himself was calling back to individual, anti-change philosophies from the Greeks who did the same (Plato as opposed to Aristotle)

    barsoap ,

    is that understanding how systems shape humans both as individuals and as a society is not de-humanising, it’s possibly the most humanising something can be.

    Yes but no. It’s dangerous territory, promising both great rewards yet also containing fatal traps: The problem is reducing our own understanding and with that perception of the world to our intellectual understanding. To paint a caricature: When you start to measure mouth angles to figure out whether someone’s happy instead of relying on your mirror neurons (“subjective interpretation”, cry the Skinnerites). Psychology itself is a very good example here, they legitimately did have to make studies to prove that mood and posture are connected because there were just too many sceptics around with their heads up in their theories, disconnected from their own humanity, their perception of reality having become limited to those theories, not unwilling but unable to see things that don’t come with a p value. And that’s within psychology itself have a good guess how it’s in other disciplines. Not really that relevant in say mathematics, but in economics? As said: Fatal.

    Evolution already gave us tools to understand the world. Sure, it also enabled us with rationality, the capacity for science, but to deny that natural understanding is just as bad as shutting off our rationality, it alienates ourselves from our own nature with contains both, in both cases we’re incomplete. And for the record: It also provided us with the capacity to mistake social conditioning for actual intuition.

    And yes this all is very much the crisis of the millennium but OTOH you shouldn’t worry too much evolution already seems to have accounted for it: Skinnerites tend to be unfuckable. That’s because they’re alienated from their own nature, and that makes you ugly.

    To be human is to be shaped entirely by your environment and your reactions to it simultaneously, and mass psychology is how we come to have anything remotely psychological to be.

    There’s variance in human psychology that makes individual either more or less prone to move with the flock, or look at it critically, it’s a necessary condition for societies to be even half-way functional: With only pure flock swimmers we’d be blindly following each other down cliffs, with only pure critics we’d not be a social species in the first place. And a society made of solely flock swimmers would not develop a critical understanding of psychology in the first place. And when I say “variance” here I very much mean nature, not nurture, nurture in this instance only comes into play if the nature happens to be ambivalent.

    commiewithoutorgans ,
    @commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net avatar

    Only replying to the first paragraph: you’re doing the exact thing I’m describing by defining “intellectual” in an individualized way (you say our, but you’re defining it as each individual, not understanding its basis in the collective).

    I’m not gonna talk any more because you’re not really saying much interesting. You’re just defining everything as opposites and not seeing the dialectic between it, but then we’re getting to an ages old argument that just results in me saying ‘read Hegel’ and that’s it

    barsoap ,

    you’re doing the exact thing I’m describing by defining “intellectual” in an individualized way

    Collective understanding is a composite of individual understandings. How the fuck can you make this a contradiction. If (a sufficient number of) individuals make that mistake, then so does the collective. If the collective makes that mistake, then necessarily so do individuals – or, if they don’t, get burned at the stake or banished or ignored or whatever, metaphorically or literally.

    read Hegel

    I’m not a Hegelian. My theoretical scaffold is generally cybernetics. If you hear me use the term Aufhebung then only because people don’t know WTF a metasystem transition is.

    commiewithoutorgans ,
    @commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net avatar

    There is an inherent contradiction to defining intellectual either as individual or collective, but you’re not a Hegelian or a marxist so that’s why Im just done with the Convo, it’s not interesting because we’re not gonna get past that

    barsoap ,

    to defining intellectual either as individual or collective,

    Which is not what I’m doing? Both individual and collective capacities for thought are part of the overall system, collective both in the societal and species (evolutionary) sense (see bio-psycho-social model).

    but you’re not a Hegelian or a marxist

    Cybernetics is one of major tools of the creation of a communist society. That’s not me saying that that’s the 22nd Congress of the CP of the USSR. The party has decided, comrade, remember your responsibility in the face of democratic centralism! Agree with this random Anarchist!

    commiewithoutorgans ,
    @commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net avatar

    You act as if cybernetics supersedes basic philosophical presuppositions. Of course I support cybernetic sciences like any other scientific study of systems, but if you think you’re doing this independent of an undergirding philosophy you’re entirely wrong.

    The only difference in the first paragraph is understanding not just that these are parts of a system, but that in practice they define one another directly through their internal contradictions (which are related to each other). Again, you’re just an anti-hegelian who thinks you’re above defining your own metaphysics.

    I also am entirely unconvinced you read either of those articles in their entirety

    But I’m not going to convince you here, and my replying is only to you at this point, nobody else will read. So hopefully you read those and try to grasp the underlying philosophy, but I’m out

    barsoap ,

    but that in practice they define one another directly through their internal contradictions

    Which is what systems do when they’re in mutual feedback, yes.

    commiewithoutorgans ,
    @commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net avatar

    Ok you pull me back in, read some philosophy of science which is at the basis of your beliefs here. There are such huge assumptions under the ideas of mutual feedback you’re representing here. I’m a Systems Engineer, I get the appeal and genuinely base my scientific analysis of socio economics in the ideas that I’ve developed through that lens. But I also understand the limitations of this because I’ve read philosophy of science at the most basic level.

    You sound like the people who think that math is a formally complete system and base worldviews on it (“everything is math and we can understand all that happens by the math at the quantum levels and even below eventually”) without realizing that the experts of the field are completely against this interpretation, and even claim it’s disproven. You’re doing intuitionism but I don’t think you realize it. I do it too, because it’s easiest for understanding and useful, but I know it’s limited

    barsoap ,

    No system can be both consistent and complete. Worse, all logical statements are based on either paradox, circular reasoning, or axioms not provable from those statements. And I’m not exactly sure whether you meant that kind of intuitionism (the constructive maths kind) or the “don’t discount your intuition” kind but, yes, I very much do both. Both tell us that our models are limited, shadows on the cave wall and all (and it is no coincidence that cybernetics itself models that limitation very nicely). Maths tells us by formal proof, intuition and instincts by incessantly insisting that there’s a world outside of our heads, something that refuses to vanish even when we cease to believe in it. It’s actually quite a feat to shut that whole thing off, and I constantly wonder how people manage to not run into lamp posts all the time.

    Lastly, let me share a nasty shower thought (literally, thought of it this morning in the shower): It would be very anti-Hegelian of you to be fundamentally opposed to the sublation of Hegelian dialectics. I even got quite formal with it (though please don’t ask me to write it in Greek), identifying sublation with MSTs. Mull about it.

    commiewithoutorgans ,
    @commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net avatar

    Hegelian dialectics was possibly sublated by marx, but Marx’s dialectic is not a dialectic idea but a material world which does exist as a basic assumption that is perfect for any theory which intends to be useful. You cannot sublate the material world itself. But again, I think that you are under the impression that, because you thought of a quick gotcha, that this hasn’t already been thought about and written by many scholars before you. Hegel himself saw this gotcha coming

    barsoap ,

    Nah I’m just confused by the way you reacted to me saying “I’m not a Hegelian”, apparently completely dismissing cybernetics as a framework even though it can very much express Hegelian thought. It’s not like I said “I’m a seventh day adventist and all your arguments shall be in the form of bible quotes or they’re invalid” or something like that.

    As far as I am concerned, regarding choice of base formalism other people use: Do whatever. If need be I’ll find the corresponding isomorphism in what I’m comfortable with, make the argument, project it back into your formalism, then say it out aloud. Coming to think of it when I put it like this my basic model might actually be category theory. Choice of formalism is very much a matter of convenience, and cybernetics happens to be darn convenient for pretty much everything, and has very important insights of its own to contribute.

    I’m not read in Hegel and Hegelians so I’m asking you, do they talk about things like branching growth at the penultimate level following MSTs/sublation? It certainly neatly explains e.g. the increase in number in different erm sects both on the left and right following the initial clashes, in the sense that a sublation already exists and is exerting control, is in the process of getting refined as it is refining the old thesis-antithesis pair by deconstructing both.

    (And yes I just called “left unity” anti-Hegelian, deal with it :)

    commiewithoutorgans ,
    @commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net avatar

    I dismissed cybernetics as a way to supplant the need for an underlying philosophy, which is what you were doing at the beginning. You can study cybernetics and believe it’s supported by dialectics, but the other way is nonsense. I am in no way dismissing that MST s are another way to talk about dialectical movements, but it is not dealing with the essence of a thing or that thing in itself at the level of philosophy. Hegelians talk about similar things very often, with a lot of the examples on the pages shown being almost identical in form to things Engels pointed out. But saying you’re not a Hegelian (we mean dialectician here, you’re likely not a marxist either) indicates to me that our disagreement is not at the level of cybernetics, but at the level of what causes such interactions at all

    barsoap ,

    the essence of a thing or that thing in itself

    I’d contend that both are actually the same thing. However that’s metaphysics which I have a severe dislike for (as in: it’s pointless) so maybe that’s why I lump it all up in one thing, and in any case, however that may be: You will find neither of them in any model, anywhere. It’s the very nature of a model to not be the thing itself.

    I’m quite sure you’ll say “yes” when I ask whether you understand the difference between map and territory. Is that understanding you have of that, however, on the level of the map, or on the level of the territory?

    Those are the actually tough nuts to crack when rooting models, when fishing for axioms to ground things with. To understand the shape of the wall Plato’s shadows get cast on, so that you know how the structure of the wall influences their shape, to be a giant iota closer to understanding.

    It would, indeed, be a shame if being a Hegelian meant regressing the “know thyself” aspect to far behind what the Stoics had already figured out in spades.

    indicates to me that our disagreement is not at the level of cybernetics, but at the level of what causes such interactions at all

    Is that important? Is it not more important to identify and characterise interactions? Physicists with different beliefs about the ultimate mechanics of quantum uncertainty get along just fine. Personally, as already alluded to with metaphysics, I’m happy to say “yeah whatever causes that, causes that”, I have no need or desire for distinctions beyond the measurable.

    nohaybanda ,

    You in bed with Nazis, you’re a Nazi. Don’t matter if you’re a true believer or just grifting.

    FamousPlan101 ,

    The guy with nazi tatoos is not Dmitry Utkin, they don’t look like the same person.

    eatmyass ,
    @eatmyass@hexbear.net avatar

    everything I can find on Utkin says he was into Nazi and pagan shit, and that the name Wagner came from him

    FamousPlan101 ,

    1: It’s based on one photo that doesn’t even look like him, this is how he really looks like, compare the 2 photos:

    1. The wagner name is grasping on straws, he was a famous composer, it doesn’t definatively prove that Wagner is nazi.

    …wikimedia.org/…/220px-Dmitry_Utkin_passport_phot…

    eatmyass ,
    @eatmyass@hexbear.net avatar

    The neopagan religion stuff (which is a pretty good signifier of neo-nazi ideology) and Wagner stuff does not come from the photo. There is evidence that he is a Nazi that has nothing to do with the photo. Idk, I feel pretty confident saying he’s a Nazi.

    FamousPlan101 ,

    If you could elaborate further on the neopagan stuff that isn’t from the photo that would be nice.

    eatmyass ,
    @eatmyass@hexbear.net avatar

    alright so I traced the neopagan thing back to its source, and it looks like it ultimately came from Radio Free Europe, an interview with a Wagner commander. Obviously not everything that RFE publishes is false, but it’s not really my favorite source to rest my claims on. It seems like all other reporting on Utkin being a neopagan comes from there. If you want to take a look, here (it’s archived).

    I think the neo-Nazi stuff rests on more solid ground though

    FamousPlan101 ,

    sry I meant neonazi stuff

    Also this is from Rainer Shea www.bellingcat.com/news/…/pmc-structure-exposed/

    In that same report, Bellingcat includes a statement which confirms that the famous Dmitry Utkin who’s been tied to Russian mercenary activity is not the same Utkin whose (supposed) Nazi tattoo photo has been widely shared by pro-NATO propagandists on social media. Bellingcat states about Prigozhin’s catering company Concord, whose CEO’s name was also Dmitry Utkin: “the Dmitry Valeryevich Utkin in fact appointed as CEO was not the Wagner Group commander. In fact, this Dmitry Utkin was created just a month earlier – through a legal name change (permissible in Russia) of a little-known St. Petersburg resident, eighteen years younger than the original Utkin and having only three months of prior management experience running his own startup company: Alexey Karnaukhov.” Karnaukhov is the alleged neo-Nazi who these propagandists claim is a mercenary commander. In reality, he’s nothing more than a business partner of Prigozhin, a business partner whose role is wholly detached from mercenary activities. And because he looks vaguely similar to the shirtless, scowling man with Nazi tattoos on his shoulders who’s appeared in a viral photo, the Ukrainian disinformation agents have falsely claimed he’s the same person as this man.

    combat_brandonism ,

    Bellingcat is RFE-tier, especially after the coup attempt when western media 180’d on wagner.

    FamousPlan101 ,

    this was before the coup.

    combat_brandonism ,

    o shit 2020, ty

    eatmyass ,
    @eatmyass@hexbear.net avatar

    it literally says in that story

    thanks to his obsessive fascination with the history of third Reich – [he] had received the nom-de-guerre “Wagner”.

    FamousPlan101 , (edited )

    It’s because he just likes the music of Wagner.

    oce ,
    @oce@jlai.lu avatar

    Putin’s propaganda is that the invasion of Ukraine is to denazify Ukraine. Basically any of his violent action is justified by calling his enemies Nazis and referring to the Soviet war against Nazi Germany (same as when the USA call others terrorists). So if he shot the plane, it’s because it had Nazis. Top comment may support this way of thinking.

    JamesConeZone ,
    @JamesConeZone@hexbear.net avatar

    No, it’s because Prigozhin was a Nazi. No more complicated than that

    oce ,
    @oce@jlai.lu avatar

    He is/was despicable as the leader of mercenaries ready to sell their services to any authoritarian regime, but I don’t see clear relationship with Nazism, do you have sources? It seems weird to me that a Nazi would accept to work for African juntas for example.

    GarbageShoot ,

    I find it weird that the former liberal consensus was that Wagner was effectively a Nazi PMC group but now I guess it isn’t?

    oce ,
    @oce@jlai.lu avatar

    If you think I follow the ideology a specific movement, I’m afraid to tell you I don’t. So I’m not sure what the former liberal consensus was. The Wikipedia article (generally consensual, I guess) does mention that a sub-group in particular is: the Rusich unit. It seems ironic that Putin pretends to fight Nazism by using Nazis, unless the goal is that they self-destruction, but I guess that’s a fantasy.

    GarbageShoot ,

    Putin never said he sought to annihilate Nazism in general, at least not that I know of. He said that among his goals is to denazify Ukraine, which I believe is true simply because the Ukrainian Nazis are his most hardliners opponents there. He does also crack down on Russian fascists when they become inconvenient to him (like darling of the west Navalny), but I don’t think he ever claimed to be an antifascist.

    combat_brandonism ,

    that consensus evaporated as soon as he staged his coup, all the libs lined up behind him immediately

    AOCapitulator ,
    @AOCapitulator@hexbear.net avatar

    When this is your internal narrative morshupls

    eatmyass ,
    @eatmyass@hexbear.net avatar

    copied from above

    Dmitry Utkin (who was also on the plane) is definitely a nazi, and Wagner has a lot of links to far-right elements in Russia. Wagner itself is supposed to reference Richard Wagner, Hitler’s favorite composer

    so Prigozhin is definitely in bed with nazis but idk anything about his actual beliefs

    barsoap ,

    Both can be true at the same time, with the caveat that actual Nazis aren’t called Nazis in Russia but nationalists, patriots, suchlike.

    But in the end Prigozhin might not have been a Nazi – in the ideological sense – but simply a crook. You don’t really need a racist or such ideology to build a colonial empire in Africa, plain ole criminal mindset suffices.

    JamesConeZone ,
    @JamesConeZone@hexbear.net avatar

    Nazis are called patriots in Russia

    limmy-what

    combat_brandonism ,

    Gets even better when you realize it’s a German writing that

    hexbear.net/comment/3814795

    LarkinDePark ,

    Putin’s propaganda is that the invasion of Ukraine is to denazify Ukraine.

    No that’s Biden’s propaganda. Putin only mentioned it along with a laundry list of reasons. But besides, Ukraine’s ultranationalism is heavily based on Nazism.

    Emu ,
    @Emu@lemmy.ml avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

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  • Kuori ,
    @Kuori@hexbear.net avatar

    ugh please go back to reddit-logo

    Silverseren ,

    His laundry list of reasons including gay/trans Ukrainian super soldiers and other such nonsense?

    Kangie ,

    Probably because of this:

    Dmitry Valerievich Utkin … was a Russian army officer. He served as a special forces officer in the GRU, where he held the rank of lieutenant colonel. He is alleged to have founded the Wagner Group

    According to several news outlets, Utkin is an admirer of Nazi Germany and has multiple Nazi tattoos, including Schutzstaffel (SS) insignia.

    The tattoos are visible in multiple public photos.

    m0nky , to world in BBC News - Luis Rubiales: Spanish FA will take legal action over Jennifer Hermoso 'lies'

    This guy is a sick POS.

    lasagna , to world in BBC News - Luis Rubiales: Spanish FA will take legal action over Jennifer Hermoso 'lies'
    @lasagna@programming.dev avatar

    That head grab before the kiss though. Looks like he is used to forcing these things.

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