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Streamwave

@[email protected]

Communitarian social democrat. Roman Catholic. Interests in literature, history, philosophy and collecting vinyl records.

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Streamwave , to world in Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh is killed in Iran by an alleged Israeli strike, threatening escalation

Uhuh

https://feddit.uk/pictrs/image/319050cd-9074-4dc9-bbcf-d46908d95e8e.webp

What do you even mean by “support Israel”?

There are almost no Jews anywhere in the world who would oppose the existence of the State of Israel. As I just pointed out, an overwhelming majority of British and American Jews see Israel as a central part of their Jewish identity, have visited, have relatives there, and feel an emotional connection to it.

Naturei Karta are a tiny fringe minority. If you’re thinking they represent some sort of larger phenomenon you’re living in a bubble.

Streamwave , to world in Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh is killed in Iran by an alleged Israeli strike, threatening escalation

No wonder Lemmy is a Jew-free, Judenrein website with people like you dominating it.

Streamwave , to world in Is Ismail Haniyeh's assassination a setback for Israel-Hamas peace talks?

It is notoriously hard to find non-radicalized folks after repeatedly dropping bombs on their homes.

Sure. It was hard after WW2 with Germany and Japan. America literally nuked two Japanese cities, more or less wiping them from the map, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, many orders of times greater than have been killed in this defensive war by Israel.

But we managed to do it.

We did in fact succeed in both countries in deradicalising them and now they’re both thriving democracies.

If that was genuinely Isreal’s aim they would be limiting their intervention to targeted strikes or utilizing the Palestinian social apparatus to try and secure custody of the most extreme Hamas members… they’d also be rabidly going after any Isreali settlers threatening the peace process.

This would only be true if you had literally zero clue about the extent of Hamas’ physical embeddedness within the infrastructure of Gaza. They’ve had 17 years to turn the entire strip into a deathtrap. Particularly easy to do that when they don’t care about Palestinian civilians. They’re all just ‘martyrs’, as Haniyeh agreed.

Does Israel want a Palestinian state? No, not really. Especially not after October 7th. But it was willing to go along with that in the 1990s after the First Intifada made its point with dignity. In December 2000, they accepted President Clinton’s offer to the Palestinians of a two-state solution, with a Palestinian state with a capital in East Jerusalem, some minor landswaps for the largest WB settlements, Palestinian airspace sovereignty, shared custody over the Temple Mount, etc.

The response was that Arafat walked away and launched the Second Intifada, a multi-year onslaught of wave after wave of suicide bombers, mass shootings, driving vehicles into crowds, bombing restaurants, and slaughtering schoolchildren. The Palestinians also had the distinction of inventing an entirely unprecedented form of terrorism: they pioneered the use of children as suicide bombers.

The Israeli left, which had pinned its colours to the ‘land for peace’ strategy which had worked with Egypt (Sinai) and Jordan, has never recovered from the Palestinian Second Intifada. The Intifada only ended when Israel created the walls and security checkpoints across and around the West Bank, the same thing which Palestinians today so hate. Well, guess what, maybe you should have made better choices…

So does Israel today want a Palestinian state? No. Why would they? They offered one in 2000 and got wave after wave of suicide bombers. They pulled out of Gaza unilaterally in 2005 and gave the Palestinians a democratic election. They elected Hamas, which culminated in October 7th, the single worst slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust. You’ve got the West Bank where the PA and UNRWA teach children how to count and do geometry by talking about firing rockets at Tel Aviv.

In a future scenario where the Palestinians were willing to live in peace next to Israel? Many Israelis would still say yes. But nobody in Israel thinks that’s ever going to be the actual scenario, and if they did then October 7th more or less decided that one for them.

Streamwave , to world in Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh is killed in Iran by an alleged Israeli strike, threatening escalation

Everyone is tired of this nonsense.

Here’s a fun fact for you:

Even naming it—that is, calling out bigotry against Jews—can be classed as yet another sign of assumed evil intent, of Jews attacking beloved principles of justice for all. In an April 2023 lecture, David Nirenberg, the historian, presented the example of an activist with a large following whose boundary-pushing rhetoric met with accusations of anti-Semitism. The activist pointed out, as Nirenberg put it, that anti-Semitism “was merely an accusation that Jews used to silence criticism and squash free speech.” He brought libel lawsuits against newspapers that accused him of anti-Semitism, and won them. It is unfortunate for those making this argument today that this activist was named Adolf Hitler.

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/…/677454/

None of this is new. Jews have seen all of this before.

Israel Is not Jewish people, many Jews outright hate the state.

No, they don’t. 88% of British Jews have been to Israel at least once, and 73% say that they feel very or somewhat attached to the country. Eight-in-ten U.S. Jews say caring about Israel is an essential or important part of what being Jewish means to them. Nearly six-in-ten say they personally feel an emotional attachment to Israel, and a similar share say they follow news about the Jewish state at least somewhat closely. There aren’t any longer sizeable Jewish populations outside of the English-speaking or Hebrew-speaking world to compare with, they were all killed or expelled in the last century. The lesson of the 20th century to the Jews was that you either spoke English or Hebrew or you died.

You can freely attack and criticise Israel without it being a reflection on Jewish people.

Depends on the criticism.

The only person who would think otherwise is an actual antisemite.

Projection.

Streamwave , to world in Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh is killed in Iran by an alleged Israeli strike, threatening escalation

You aren’t being clever by doubling down on an antisemitic canard.

Streamwave , to world in Is Ismail Haniyeh's assassination a setback for Israel-Hamas peace talks?

Gaza has restrictions from israel since 1967

Sure. So what? For the next 10 years it averaged nearly 10% GDP growth per year.

The more tight restrictions get, the more hate there will be feom the affected people.

I think this rests on a fundamental misunderstanding of the conditions in Gaza pre-October 7th.

Gaza was pretty wealthy. The average income exceeded that of their neighbouring Egyptians. Yes there were difficulties importing some goods or products, but it was rarely impossible for consumer goods. Plus, in the end, they (as we now know) had miles of smuggling tunnels.

That’s one reason why Egypt started squealing when Israel began to move into Rafah. There were minimal civilian casualties, but the IDF discovered the vast tunnels, some big enough to move a tank through, between Rafah and Egypt.

The idea that everyone was sort of sitting around in tents and mud is nonsense.

They also received billions of dollars in international aid, which Hamas of course simply spent building weapons and terror dungeons. But many Gazans went to work in Israel, many went to university abroad, built decent lives. All undone because of Hamas, tragically.

Watch this tourism video by a Gazan from 2019. Does this look like a Warsaw Ghetto to you?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBo7i-TXy6s

Yes times could be tough. But times are often tough all around the world. Ask the Sudanese or the Ethiopians. They’ve got average incomes multiple times lower than the Gazans did. They didn’t launch genocidal wars or broadcast TV shows for children calling for beheading al-Yahud.

Streamwave , to world in Is Ismail Haniyeh's assassination a setback for Israel-Hamas peace talks?

OK

Streamwave , to world in Is Ismail Haniyeh's assassination a setback for Israel-Hamas peace talks?

The blockade was instituted in response to the Gazans electing Hamas in free and fair, internationally monitored democratic elections, and then beginning to fire rockets at Israel, to try and reduce their ability to import weapons or components which could be used to create weapons.

There didn’t even used to be a wall. Before Hamas, you could just drive from Tel Aviv to the beaches of Gaza and back with no checkpoints.

A lot of Palestinians miss those days. I’m pretty sure most Israelis do, too.

Streamwave , to world in Is Ismail Haniyeh's assassination a setback for Israel-Hamas peace talks?

Sure, I’m aware that I’m better informed on this than most people are who just rely on ambient vibes and prejudices. I’m not challenging that.

Neither the Gazans nor the Arabs of Palestinians have spent 70 years having their land and lives stolen. This sort of superficial analysis is commonplace in the West but bears no relation to the historical reality of the conditions under which the State of Israel came into existence.

The best account, drawing especially on the work of Benny Morris and more recent scholars, was given in a lecture by political analyst Haviv Rettig Gur here.

Streamwave , to world in Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh is killed in Iran by an alleged Israeli strike, threatening escalation

Yes, I’m sure it’s a complete coincidence that Israel alone among all the countries in the world, including Syria (where Assad slaughtered more than half a million Syrians), China (engaged in the genocide of the Uyghurs) and Azerbaijan (who literally ethnically cleansed Nagorno-Karabakh of Armenians just last year), is the only one accused of being bloodthirsty child-murderers who regard non-Jewish children as less than human.

Couldn’t be that a key theme of antisemitism over 2,000 years retains a deep hold on people’s imaginations and biases, influencing their views today even if they aren’t fully cognisant of, could it?

Nah. It’s just a coincidence that it’s only the Jewish state accused of this.

Streamwave , to world in Is Ismail Haniyeh's assassination a setback for Israel-Hamas peace talks?

Well, no, not overnight. There’d need to be a denazification process similar to what took place in Germany and Japan after the Second World War. The only people who know how to do that with a Muslim population are the Saudis and Emiratis, who succeeded in deradicalising their own populations in the decades following 9/11.

They’d play a central role in managing the civil administration of Gaza while that was given time to show fruits. It would obviously be far too early for any sort of democracy in Gaza, but it’s a goal to strive towards in the long term.

Streamwave , to world in Is Ismail Haniyeh's assassination a setback for Israel-Hamas peace talks?

Why would you trust the country that give uncondtional support to israel and it’s allies to gouvern gaza.

Israel has no interest in governing Gaza. It wants to maintain security measures but that’s it.

The actual governing would be done by non-radicalised Palestinians alongside the Saudis, Emiratis and Kuwaitis, presumably some sort of council being formed and administration constructed from what remains of the civilian infrastructure of Hamas.

Streamwave , (edited ) to world in Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh is killed in Iran by an alleged Israeli strike, threatening escalation

An ‘ethnostate’ significantly more ethnically and religiously diverse than any country in Europe, the Middle East or Asia.

Japan is 99% ethnic Yamato Japanese. Is Japan an ethnostate? And should they be criticised for this?

73% of Israelis are Jews, more than half of which are Middle Eastern (Mizrahi) Jews, i.e. zero connection to Europe. The other 27% of Israeli citizens are usually Arabs who are either Muslim, Christian, Druze, Bedouin, Circassians, Baha’i, Armenians, Samaritans, etc. They have the same civil, legal, political and religious rights as Jewish Israelis. They’re represented at every level of government, including in the parliament with an explicitly Arabist political party that has once served in a coalition government.

And it’s… Israel that’s the ‘ethnostate’. Got it.

Accusing Jews of being unable to stop themselves from murdering children is unambiguous antisemitism with a long history dating back to the Middle Ages.

Streamwave , to world in Is Ismail Haniyeh's assassination a setback for Israel-Hamas peace talks?

what do you mean by that?

I mean how the occupation can end. It’s not obvious how that can happen, even though it obviously should. Go on Google Images, then search ‘topography of Israel and the West Bank’. If a nascent civilian government of Palestine falls to Hamas or similar forces then they’d be overlooking Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. They’d have a throughline to Iran via Syria-Lebanon. That’s not a risk Israel can take.

Hamas has little to no influence there

This simply isn’t correct. Hamas operates in much of the West Bank, as do allied groups like the Jenin Brigades and Lion’s Den in Nablus. They’re also enormously popular among West Bank Palestinians.

it is governed by a civilian government that was democratically elected

So democratic that the current President Abbas is currently serving the 19th year of his 4-year term.

In fact, they’ve been trying to hold new elections, something that Israel has been blocking for years now

This is misleading at best. They’re not trying to hold new elections, because every single opinion poll for about 15 years now show that Fatah would lose badly and certainly Hamas would become the new government of the West Bank, which would finally shatter the possibility of there ever being a Palestinian state. That doesn’t serve Fatah or Israel. Israel therefore keeps Fatah on life-support as the least-bad option.

There is little to no violence coming from the West Bank.

Because it’s been suppressed by Fatah in co-operation with Israeli security services who’ve been operating in the West Bank before and after October 7th.

By the way, right at this moment thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank are out marching in support of Hamas and against the killing of Ismail Hainyeh: timesofisrael.com/…/dismay-in-gaza-and-rare-open-…

Streamwave , to world in Is Ismail Haniyeh's assassination a setback for Israel-Hamas peace talks?

Any outcome where Hamas was permitted to live after October 7th or to govern Gaza was never going to be acceptable, and Hamas was unlikely to ever concede this.

Anything less than the end of Hamas would have been a terrible outcome for all sides. They’d regroup, rearm, and in a few years’ time they’d attack again, more civilians would die, and people would start clutching their pearls and warning about ‘escalation’. And in the meantime, the Palestinians in Gaza would have had to endure their brutal rule.

Once Hamas has been sufficiently degraded, there’ll be some sort of regional coalition to rebuild Gaza with Saudi, Emirati and Kuwaiti involvement and US security guarantees, a deradicalisation process for the Palestinians there, and the construction of a civil bureaucracy. The international community will be pouring in financial assistance, except that this time it won’t be used to build hundreds of miles of terror dungeons.

The West Bank is a tougher nut to crack. But Israel will have to deal with the Hezbollah Jihadis first.

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