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andyburke ,
@andyburke@fedia.io avatar

I wish Russia wouldn't using Ukraine as a proxy for the US. So much suffering and death amongst brethren,.for what?

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Russia tried to negotiate with the west for 8 years. Then they almost made a deal within the first two months of the war that the west sabotaged. It’s pretty clear that the west wants the war to go on as long as possible.

Phen ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    yogthos OP ,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    What deals has Russia backtracked on specifically? Also, given that Ukraine is very obviously losing now, it’s pretty clear that whatever deal will be on the table is going to be worse than what was available two years ago. How does this help Ukraine?

    andyburke ,
    @andyburke@fedia.io avatar

    I will still never understand Putin turning on nearby brothers as a way to hurt the west. He throws his own into the same meat grinder. Why? It's not even a thing that registers on the average American's radar, but Russia is now on a war footing to fight old allies? It makes no sense.

    yogthos OP ,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    That’s not what happened though. Donbas rebelled against the regime that came into power in Ukraine in a violent coup, and there’s been a civil war since then. Here’s CNN coverage of what Ukraine has been doing to people of Donbas since 2014 twitter.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296 and here’s a French documentary yewtu.be/watch?v=bN68OfFKaWs

    Russia tried to work with the west to stop that through Minsk agreements, and now the west admitted that the plan was to just buy time for the regime in Ukraine to arm further.

    It’s also very illustrative to look at a few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Mearsheimer is certainly not pro Russian in any sense, and a proponent of US global hegemony. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:

    https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/9881f4d9-5023-4c4a-8379-779cc4776e1e.png

    here’s how the election in 2004 went:

    https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f081fe2a-a9fe-473b-99bc-162d4c405ae4.png

    this is the 2010 election:

    https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/1471241b-e5ee-4eec-8465-10708deb1726.png

    As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:

    https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/0dc6494d-a490-44a5-9038-c6c6e1e22709.png

    andyburke ,
    @andyburke@fedia.io avatar

    But why invade towards Kyiv if this is the case? You've got a lot of words and links, but I'm not sure why Putin thinks attacking Ukraine is hurting the west. It seems like it's just hurting Ukrainians.

    yogthos OP ,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    I’m not sure why you think the goal was to hurt the west. The goal is to stop western sponsored regime in Ukraine from doing ethnic cleansing. What’s hurting Ukrainians is the fact that the west refuses to let this proxy war end. Another big reason for the war happens to be NATO expansion. Here’s Stoltenberg openly admitting why the war started:

    The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn’t sign that.

    The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

    www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm

    I’ve given you lots of resources and background in this thread, but it seems like you’re not actually interested in understanding why the war is happening, and just keep repeating the same talking point.

    andyburke ,
    @andyburke@fedia.io avatar

    You said it was a proxy war. So it is Putin vs. the west. But I am still not clear on how it's ok to shoot your neighbors to hurt people on the other side of the planet.

    yogthos OP ,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    I’ve explained this as clearly as humanely possible, and if it’s still not clear to you then it’s pretty clear that you intentionally don’t want to understand what’s happening.

    andyburke ,
    @andyburke@fedia.io avatar

    Putin could pull back from Ukraine right now and stop killing Ukrainians, right?

    Couldn't he fight the west somewhere else instead of killing his neighbors?

    Ukraine didn't invade Russia, it was the other way around.

    yogthos OP ,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    Please read what I wrote above and then respond to the point I made instead of regurgitating the phrases you memorized.

    andyburke ,
    @andyburke@fedia.io avatar

    Nah, I've succeeded in what I set out to do.

    Pretty sure we both know why there is a war in UA and who is responsible.

    yogthos OP ,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    If what you set out to do was to regurgitate propaganda points you’ve memorized, then you’ve accomplished that admirably. 👏

    andyburke ,
    @andyburke@fedia.io avatar

    One country can end the war today. It's that easy to know who's fault all of this is.

    yogthos OP ,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    You’re right. US can stop funding its proxy war against Russia any time. Meanwhile, Stoltenberg very explicitly explained whose fault it is, pretty sure he’s got no reason to lie about it. I think I’ll believe the head of NATO over you little buddy.

    andyburke ,
    @andyburke@fedia.io avatar

    No problem, buckaroo.

    Mongostein ,

    If you read their comments in a Russian accent they make way more sense

    MrKurteous ,

    Hey, so I side with Ukraine in the current conflict, but in general I’m somewhat of a NATO sceptic and really not a fan of US foreign policy. I was curious about the information you provided, but honestly, in contrast to what you claim, it seems to me that you have not explained most of your points. Yeah there’s been a clear political divide in Ukraine, but it requires an enormous leap of logic to see that as justification of the Russian invasion. Yeah NATO sucks in many ways, and it and Ukraine too have done some shitty things, but again, there seems to be absolutely no sensible argument for any of that to have justified the invasion.

    I haven’t watched the French documentary yet, in case any of your arguments relied on it. A quick online search on the journalist does mention several untrue pieces of Russian propaganda that seem to be mentioned in the documentary, though. Any chance you could explain more, or is this lack of explanation all there is for someone curious to understand why the war is happening?

    yogthos OP ,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    Did you bother watching the lecture from Mearsheimer that the slides are from? It provides a lot of background and explains why Russia took action. The French documentary details what was happening since 2014, but I’ve also linked a CNN clip saying the same things more briefly. Hopefully you’ll agree that CNN isn’t spreading Russian propaganda.

    Fundamentally, the explanation Russia gives is precisely the same that NATO had for intervening in Yugoslavia, and is in fact directly modelled on it. Just as NATO did, Russia recognized independence of the separatist regions, then these regions asked Russia to intervene on their behalf, which Russia did.

    Prior to taking action, Russia tried to work with the west and Ukraine to implement Minsk agreements for 8 years. Western leaders have now come out and openly said that these were never intended to be implemented faithfully, and were used as a delaying tactic to arm Ukraine. Stoltenberg has now publicly admitted that NATO expansion was a major factor in the start of the war as well:

    The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn’t sign that.

    The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

    www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm

    Finally, we now know that Russia and Ukraine had a draft peace agreement first two months into the war that the west sabotaged. The agreement effectively amounted to Ukraine staying neutral and actually implementing Minsk. The fact that the west refused to go along with that makes it pretty clear who actually wanted the war all along.

    In fact, RAND famously published a study titled ‘Extending Russia’ that outlines how Russia could be goaded into a conflict in Ukraine, and why that would benefit US interests www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html

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