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AFC1886VCC ,

NATO doesn’t have an answer to the Russian invasion. They know they can’t go in themselves and directly fight Russians, and they know they can’t support Ukraine with billions indefinitely.

Everyone says that giving up Ukrainian territory is absolutely out of the question, but that’s what has already happened. Crimea hasn’t been Ukrainian territory for 10 years now. International recognition doesn’t count for much when the reality on the ground is that the Russians control the region.

I genuinely don’t see any outcome where Ukraine gets its territory back.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Which raises the question of what exactly was this all for. Ukraine could have retained all of its original territory and sovereignty if it simply agreed to stay neutral and implement Minsk. Then Ukraine could’ve still retained most of its territory if the Istanbul agreement was allowed to go through. At each turn, NATO egged Ukraine on to fight, and in each case the situation got worse for Ukraine thanks to NATO involvement. Now, hundreds of thousands of people died, millions of others fled, large parts of the country have been destroyed, and there might not be an Ukraine left in the end. This war has completely discredited NATO in my opinion.

istanbullu ,

Ukrainians sacrificed their nation for Americans, and America could not care less about Ukraine. This has to be the backstab of the century.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Anybody who’s minimally historically aware knew that this is the inevitable fate of all US proxies. This was always going to be the outcome.

capem ,

How come nobody mentions that Russia has over 4x the population of Ukraine?

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Or 3x shell production capacity than the entire west www.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/…/index.html

ZC3rr0r ,

And once again the conservatives are showing that they are truly America’s enemy at home. Not just through fomenting domestic terrorism and a coup, but also by throwing whatever remains of the US’ reputation and reliability for it’s allies under the fucking bus.

They have so much blood on their hands by this point I wonder if they simply enjoy being the villains of this story.

capem ,

Never waste a moment to sow tribalism.

ZC3rr0r ,

I get your point about the balkanization of US politics, but frankly it’s called for in this particular instance (as well as the Jan 6 coup attempt I am referring to) as it’s quite literally the conservative party’s representatives blocking the effort to give aid to Ukraine in congress. No ifs, buts, or both sides-isms about that.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

The fact that you think another 60 billion is going to change the course of the war after untold billions have already been poured into it over the past two years is absolutely hilarious. The best chance NATO had to defeat Russia was last summer when they scrounged everything they had for the big offensive. Ukrainian army was still in decent shape back then, NATO supplies tanks, ammunition, and AD systems, and so on. The offensive was an a complete and utter disaster. That level of support is simply not possible now because the west is running out of material things like artillery shells and missiles. Meanwhile, Ukraine is running out of manpower. Anybody who keeps promoting this war is a sick individual who simply wants people to die for the sake of it.

ZC3rr0r ,

And what, pray tell, is the alternative here? A surrender to Russia is tantamount a full on capitalisation of the west and a defacto encouragement for Putin to keep pushing aggressive expansionist agendas. Ukraine will have an ongoing border dispute that can turn violent at any time with an adversary that’s been emboldened by a proven lack of support by Ukraine’s allies.

There is no winner in war, but this would be about as close to winning as Russia could possibly get.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

What part of Russia is going to win this war are you struggling with?

ZC3rr0r ,

Read the above. I’m having issues with them winning at all, given the implications for the future security of Europe.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

So, what you’re saying is that you’re having issues dealing with reality?

ZC3rr0r ,

No, I’d say my biggest issue is with the US becoming an unreliable ally just because the conservative party wants to score some stupid political points. See my original comment.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

US has always been an unreliable ally as every US proxy eventually finds out. Europeans made the mistake of thinking that there was some kinship with the US, but the reality is that you were simply a tool to be used and discarded when you outlived your usefulness. The US is already cannibalizing European economy to bolster its own.

Omega_Haxors ,

Tribalism is a deeply racist term created to delegitimize indigenous communities.

rbesfe ,

Yawn

Omega_Haxors ,

The fuck was that for? I mean I can think of a few reasons none of them are flattering…

istanbullu ,

Good. The world will be a better place without American wars.

Omega_Haxors ,

The only way we’ll see a world with American wars is if America kicks it, which at this point I fully support.

rbesfe ,

This is very much a Russian war

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

it’s not www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html

Omega_Haxors ,

Who is in power right now. Both parties are deeply infused with liberalism, the only difference is where they point their fascism. You cannot in good faith say one party is better than the other when the “better” party is literally complicit in genocide.

ZC3rr0r ,

For all intents and purposes the conservative party is in power. Sure, they aren’t in the White House, but they own a majority in congress and the supreme court.

As for complicity in genocide: I never said I liked the Biden administration’s wholesale carte blanche sorry of Israel’s genocide in Gaza, but two wrongs don’t make a right. The US doesn’t need to also support the genocide of Ukrainians by Russia through political inaction. One current genocide involving a US ally is bad enough, we don’t need two thank you very much.

Sure, I’d love for the US to stop supporting Israel. But I’m not going to suggest they do it over the dead bodies of Ukrainians.

itsonlygeorge ,

When you run out of shells and ammo, you tend to lose.

capem ,

Being outnumbered and losing the equipment that you thought would win you the war also contributes.

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