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Schooner OP ,

It’s interesting to see the perspective of non-Western/global south audiences compared to a Western/global north audience.

Raphael ,
@Raphael@lemmy.world avatar

South America has suffered with American coups for many decades now, none of us want to take part on America’s Proxy Wars.

deus_deceptor ,

South America in favor of war crimes, gotcha.

zefiax ,

Just like Europe has been in favour of war crimes in South America for centuries. First directly and then indirectly through supporting the US.

deus_deceptor ,

Nice whataboutism you got there. There is such a thing as “the good fight”. Either you stand behind Ukraine in their fight for survival, or behind russia in their demonstration of what happens when a country is collectively falling apart due to fetal alcohol spectrum disorder.

Methylman ,

I mean clearly there is a third option - being a knob and claiming you’re always right no matter what the facts say

NuPNuA ,

You know Ukraine is located in Europe right? And this is more of a case of shoring up Europe’s borders against an agresssor trying to reclaim they former territory?

Raphael ,
@Raphael@lemmy.world avatar

Why is the agressor attacking Ukraine though, has any liberal journal told you the reason? Has any of them told you about the american military bases quickly encroaching into Russian territory?

Has any of them told you the kind of policies Zelensky implemented? No, they haven’t.

Confused_Idol ,

Last I checked, having a military base is not grounds for invasion and sovereign countries have a right to determine their alliances.

And even if it was grounds for an invasion, which it emphatically is not, Ukraine didn’t have any and the major European states were against Ukraine joining NATO until after the invasion.

zephyreks ,

It was for Cuba…

Confused_Idol ,

So you approve of the United States actions towards Cuba then? Since you approve of Russias actions towards Ukraine?

Right, didn’t think so.

Why it’s almost like you aren’t basing your stance on any kind of ethical value or set of principles at all….

zephyreks ,

Last I checked, having a military base is not grounds for invasion and sovereign countries have a right to determine their alliances.

What I think doesn’t affect the fact that US policy considers having a military base to be grounds for invasion. In fact, I have no influence on US or Russian foreign policy and what I think about it doesn’t matter. The fact is that the policy is pretty consistent (FWIW, out of the big powers only China hasn’t actively invaded everyone who drops a military base near them).

Confused_Idol ,

The facts include the fact that Ukraine doesn’t have any American military bases.

So you are still wrong.

zephyreks ,

www.kyivpost.com/post/10511

The Minister of Defense claims that they are (were) drawing up plans for the construction of NATO bases in the country as early as 2020.

Now, sure, Eastern European countries are well-known for being hopelessly corrupt and talking out of their asses so anything their government says is worthless, but Ukraine has consistently postured that they would like to join NATO and NATO has consistently postured that they would like for Ukraine to join NATO.

cfr.org/…/why-nato-has-become-flash-point-russia-…

Plus, the Monroe Doctrine (which motivated US action in Cuba, Costa Rica, Guatemala, the Dominican Republic, Chile, Bolivia, Argentina, Nicaragua, Grenada, and Panama) literally describes exactly Russia’s motivations… So it doesn’t matter if you or I don’t like it, because geopolitics has no morals and Russia and the US operate on a whole other plane of what’s “right” and what’s “wrong” than the rest of us.

These countries think that they should be in control of the entire world and that the entire world would be a better place if they were in control. They trample over other countries’ right to self-determination and force changes that the population itself doesn’t want in the name of ideals that never realize.

So are you really surprised that Latin American countries don’t want to align themselves with the West?

Confused_Idol ,

2020

So after Russia invaded? Did you forget Crimea?

Not to mention Sweden of all places can’t even get into NATO. You think an Ukraine that was partially occupied was getting in? You think the Russian government doesn’t know that?

Are you ignoring NATO membership for Ukraine was already torpedoed by France and Germany who are only changing their mind now because Russia decided to try and take the whole country? So no NATO has not “consistently postured” any such thing. It was explicitly decided at The 2008 summit to not offer them (or Georgia) membership. The US cannot unilaterally add anyone to NATO. Nor does the general-security of NATO get to decide that. No action plan or invitation was offered. The words have about as much weight as countries claiming they will stop global warming. Without concrete action, meaningless.

I’m not sure when you are citing the Monroe doctrine like that established some kind of precedent when Russia has been invading and neighbors before the United States was even a country.

I don’t care who Latin American decides to back. That’s their sovereign right. You know, that thing that’s being violated by Russia. I never said anything about it.

What I adressed was a comment playing apologetics for Russia with inconsistent application of its standards.

So don’t try and hide behind the some “might makes right””geopolitics” BS now.

After all, if our standards and morals don’t apply to the conversation since these are globe coinquering monsters who will do whatever they can get away then why are you still making excuses for Russia and blaming it in NATO.

Because you have an agenda.

zephyreks ,

Might makes right is literally the foundation of geopolitics. Claiming otherwise shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world works.

It literally doesn’t matter what you or I think because that’s the reality we live in.

Confused_Idol ,

Irrelevant. That countries do things forcibly doesn’t mean I have to tolerate bad actions or should be quit about when they do bad or ignore bad arguments that try and justify the bad actions.

But I’m glad we now agree the invasion had nothing to do with a nato base.

zephyreks , (edited )

Not according to Ukraine’s Minister of Defense…

Nice revisionist history you got there.

Most people on these online platforms are American and implicitly endorse the actions taken by the US government by virtue of being American. It’s hypocritical. I did assume that you were American, but if you’re not then I apologize.

Nobody’s trying to justify that what Russia is doing is morally right… But it is exactly what I’d expect a shit country with no sense of morals and a strong sense of “everything I do is righteous and in the name of my country and to protect my country from both real and imagined threats” like Russia or the US to do.

It’s funny to watch Americans try and defend US actions in the context of Russian ones and then wonder why other countries don’t want to get involved with either side, which, in case you forgot, was the whole point of the original post.

Confused_Idol ,

Revisionist history from talks about construction in 2020.

When Russia first invaded Ukraine in 2014.

Whose history again?

I’d love to see you quote me on when I ever said the US acted righteously. What I did say was that bad behavior by the IS is not grounds to justify bad behavior from Russia.

And again, the comment that started this chain was definitly trying to do that.

The rest is just white noise to try and expand the argument out of its scope.

Also known as arguing in bad faith.

zephyreks ,

Might want to look at the article you’re posting on for an argument in bad faith…

Confused_Idol ,

Might wanna reread what I’ve said and what I’ve adressed since you know, I was responding to a comment on the article, not the article itself and this conversation has little to do with the article at all, mostly due to people like you making it about the US.

You know, the article about EU nations asking for support for a European nation from Latin American countries……

zephyreks ,

The article about Latin American countries refusing that support? Hmm…

Confused_Idol ,

Which brings up the US how? Hmmmm……

zephyreks ,

Because Latin American policy has been dictated by decades of US influence, just like how European policy has been dictated by decades of Soviet influence?

Confused_Idol ,

From an article that neither mentions the US or does the joint statement by the Latin Americans countries mention the US.

So yeah, maybe go back and read the article. Bringing the US up is conjecture unsubstantiated by the article. And weren’t you big on o Lu focusing on the article just a few comments ago?

I get you struggle not to tie everything back in the United States but American exceptionalism is a fairly toxic idea.

zephyreks ,

Which of the countries in Latin America haven’t had governments flipped by US intervention? I’ll wait for you to count.

Confused_Idol ,

Case and point. EU nations (aka Not the US) asking for support for an eu nation (which did not have anything to do with US coups in Latin America) is to you about the US.

You can’t even imagine Latin American countires having issues with Europeans treatment of them, like the article states. The response text but up colonial reparations.

The US is not the center of the world. Countries have motivations that don’t factor the US.

For someone who doesn’t like the US they have gotten deep in your head.

zephyreks ,

The US is the center of the West’s response to Russia’s invasion. That’s indisputable.

Confused_Idol ,

Which doesn’t make make them the center of latin American reasoning. Geopolitics is more complicated than that. NOr is their anything in the article to imply anything of the sort.

zephyreks ,

Geopolitics is centered around the big superpowers (the US, the ex-USSR, and China). Claiming otherwise is silly.

Confused_Idol ,

Big powers like the entire EU? You know. Who the article was about.

zephyreks ,

The EU has never been considered a power of the same scale as the US or the ex-USSR.

Confused_Idol ,

And yet is much more directly impacted by, and involved in, the situation in Ukraine and you know, it was a direct exchange between those two parties and referencing those two parties and not the US.

You’ve got a bad case of American on the brain. You hate the topic but can’t change the subject.

zephyreks ,

I must be forgetting how NATO gets funded…

Confused_Idol ,

You definitely are since the US only pays about 16% of NATOS budget. Which is a smaller percentage than what the US pays to the UN peace keeping forces.

You……do know that NATOs budget is not the same things as NATO combined military spending right?

And also irrelevant since the EU is not NATO. They share members they do not have identical membership.

zephyreks ,

Take a look at a map of NATO. Now take a look at a map of EU aid to Ukraine. The only real non-NATO members of the EU are, what? Ireland, Switzerland, Austria, and Serbia (and a few microstates)?

Oh, would you look at that! Guess who hasn’t been providing significant military aid to Ukraine. No guns and no ammunition. (In other news, even China has provided Ukraine with humanitarian aid…)

This is a proxy war between the US and Russia. The only significant aid from non-NATO states has been from, what, Pakistan (who oppose anything India supports lol), Australia (who are otherwise aligned with the US through ANZUS/AUKUS), Israel (do I even need to say anything?), and Japan (who are obviously aligned with the US)?

Confused_Idol , (edited )

So find a single quote of the Latin American countires opposing the text as written had a thing to do with nato. You can’t.

You do realize the majority of these exact same states (including India, who you listed as supporting the war. What?) have already condemned the war at the UN. So no, it’s not as simple as pro us and anti us. Countires do indeed have interests beyond america or Russia and indeed do have bilateral concerns.

Just because you can’t see the world through anything but the US lense doesn’t mean the rest of the world can’t. And just because you think Latin America should have every action they take be shaped by their relationship with the u tied states doesn’t mean they think that.

So unless you can actually put up some evidence rather than your wild conjecture I’m afraid I’m done here.

zephyreks ,

Where is India’s aid to Ukraine? Words are cheap.

Confused_Idol ,

Where’s indias aid to Russia?

And it’s politics. The power of words is immense.

zephyreks ,

Words aren’t going to save the lives of Ukrainian soldiers.

India is buying Russian oil and propping up Russia’s resource-based economy. But yes, like China, they aren’t providing lethal military aid.

Confused_Idol ,

Because India needs oil. A lot of it and for cheap. India is also buying US weapons and phasing out Russian ones.

It’s almost like India is a country with its own interests and doesn’t treat the world as one giant chess match between Russia and the US.

You know. Like Latin America.

zephyreks ,

In the context of the war in Ukraine? Nobody is saying that the world is, but that the war in Ukraine is. Latin America doesn’t want to get involved in a chess match between the US and Russia… I’m glad we agree lol.

Confused_Idol ,

The only people framing the geopolitical relationship with the EUas part of this so called chess match is you.

You never did present that evidence I asked for by the way. So we are done here.

zephyreks ,

I mean, we’ve already established that the members of the EU that are supporting Ukraine is exactly (somehow) the members of NATO… I’m not really sure what you’re asking for.

zephyreks ,

Last I checked, that’s not what Ukraine’s Minister of Defense claimed.

Most people on these online platforms are American and implicitly endorse the actions taken by the US government by virtue of being American. It’s hypocritical. I did assume that you were American, but if you’re not then I apologize.

Nobody’s trying to justify that what Russia is doing is morally right… But it is exactly what I’d expect a shit country with no sense of morals and a strong sense of “everything I do is righteous and in the name of my country and to protect my country from both real and imagined threats” like Russia or the US to do.

It’s funny to watch Americans try and defend US actions in the context of Russian ones and then wonder why other countries don’t want to get involved with either side, which, in case you forgot, was the whole point of the original post.

Considering how much Latin American countries have gotten abused by the US government, why are you even debating that they should be supporting the US side in this conflict?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Did I miss something? Did America force Russia to invade Ukraine?

Mindlight ,

“The countries of Central and Latin America “threw cold water” on the EU’s efforts to unite the continent to support Ukraine and call for colonial reparations in a counter-proposal to the draft declaration of the upcoming EU summit.”

So on one hand they are not interested in standing up against the Russian attempt to colonize Ukraine but on the other hand they are very interested about colonial reparations?

So… are they pro colonization or anti colonization?

Caligvla ,
@Caligvla@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Just like Europe isn’t interested in LATAM’s problems, LATAM isn’t interested in Europe’s problems. Take that as you will.

Mindlight ,

Well… that’s convenient.

So then the colonization of Latin America was a Latin American problem and not an European one.

Caligvla ,
@Caligvla@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I’m pretty sure LATAM doesn’t expect any reparations lol. This is more of a “fuck off, why should we help you if you don’t help us” kind of deal.

deus_deceptor ,

Just like the sounds of my neighbor beating the shit of his wife isn’t any of my concern. I have absolutely no moral obligation to help people in need.

Caligvla ,
@Caligvla@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I could say the same of Europe for the last, I dunno, century maybe. All those brutal US backed dictatorships and where were they?

deus_deceptor ,

Please tell me how Ukraine should suffer because of Pinochet?

NuPNuA ,

Enjoy being vassals of China in the future then I guess.

boredtortoise , (edited )

Or even worse. China coups Lula in Brazil, plants a puppet who goes Russia on their neighbors.

5BC2E7 ,

I think it’s about showing that they want to be treated as an equal partner. Since eu made it all about their priorities they countered by replacing european concerns with latin american concerns in their proposal.

Methylman ,

TIL Ukrainian lives are only a European concern

5BC2E7 , (edited )

you seem to be presenting a false dichotomy. or you conflate high priorities with concerns.

if it’s not intentional, hopefully today you’ll learn that latin america prioritizing latin american issues does not mean that other issues are of no concern. for latin america there are more pressing issues.

edit: your reply doubles down on insisting that because it’s not the highest priority then the only conclusion is it cannot be a concern. you are the only one claiming that latin america position is that the issue does not need attention. It looks like you can’t accept that latin america has it’s own priorities and dosen’t have to prioritize whatever eu says should be at the top. this is more like we agree to make a joint statement and the first draft you send me is all about you you and you with no mention of me. so i send you another draft deleting everything about you and putting me first second and third place. it’s a message.

Methylman ,

The false dichotomy? Id argue that’s you not believing someone can be concerned about an issue that affects everyone (global issue) regardless of location… but okay

Edit: A regional issue being more pressing for countries in that region does not justify saying a global issue does not need attention

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