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Ukraine used F-16s to repel Russia's mass missile attack, Zelensky confirms

Ukraine’s Air Force used F-16 jets as part of its defense against Russia’s mass missile and drone attack on Aug. 26, President Volodymyr Zelensky confirmed during a press conference on Aug. 27.

Russia targeted 15 of Ukraine’s 24 oblasts on Aug. 26, launching over 200 missiles and drones as part of the largest-ever aerial attack against Ukraine.

. . .

F-16s gave “a very good result,” Zelensky told reporters. “As part of this huge attack, we shot down some missiles and drones with the help of F-16s.”

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NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

Love to see it, give them more

Quill7513 ,

Look how much they’ve done with so little and imagine what they could accomplish if we stopped giving Israel blank checks and started giving some of that aid to Ukraine

gravitas_deficiency ,

Right??? Like, holy shit, Israel doesn’t need any of that stuff. All it lets them do is kill civilians at greater speed and in greater quantities. Ukraine, on the other hand, has proven time and again that they’ll follow the guidelines we give them, even if it ties their hands behind their backs. It’s fucking infuriating. Israel is NOT the good guy here. Ukraine definitely IS the good guy here.

Blue_Morpho ,

The difference is Israel is buying the weapons. If Ukraine showed up with a billion dollars , they’d get whatever they wanted immediately too.

Womble ,

Israel is buying the weapons with the money marked “for buying american weapons” that the US donates to them.

Zipitydew ,

So is Ukraine. The real difference is how long the supply agreements have been open.

TSG_Asmodeus ,
@TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

And one country being invaded by what was previously thought to be the 2nd best military in the world.

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

Its russia so it is probably shitty WW2 tech at this point but:

Very curious on the anti-missile capabilities. My understanding is that anything newer than a V2 rocket is just too fast for a jet pilot to actively engage. That is why the “meta” is countermeasures and computerized systems (e.g. patriot missiles) where the human involvement is to approve launch for liability/Geneva Convention purposes.

Drones make perfect sense. But curious if this was a mistranslation, reference to attacking launch sites, or what.

NOT_RICK , (edited )
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

Cruise missiles are basically UAV kamakaze planes, F16’s are definitely able to intercept many kinds of them

partial_accumen ,

My understanding is that anything newer than a V2 rocket is just too fast for a jet pilot to actively engage.

Not quite. The part you’re referring to with V2 is ballistic missiles, specifically in their terminal (falling on target) stage. It is very hard and expensive, but not impossible, to counter these. However, only a fraction of what russia is shooting at Ukraine is ballistic missiles. Most are cruise missiles (think mini jet airplanes with wings and jet engines that fly at jet airplane speeds). These can be shot down by other jets or land based missiles pretty easily if there are defenses in place. Lastly is the Shehed drones (think mini civilian propeller plane). These are very slow flying and be shot down by land based guns, other propeller planes with guns, or even helicopters with guns. Russia is also shooting a small handful of hypersonic missiles. These are crazy fast flying from beginning to end of their flight. They’re really expensive and russia doesn’t have many of these.

That is why the “meta” is countermeasures and computerized systems (e.g. patriot missiles) where the human involvement is to approve launch for liability/Geneva Convention purposes.

I think human operators are more to prevent shooting down non-combatant aircraft like commercial airline and civilian planes neither of which are broadcasting Friend or Foe signals to air defense operators.

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

Fair enough. I think anything short of a ballistic missile against a “near peer” IS outdated tech at this point, but doing rough napkin math gives about an hour from launch to impact. I still suspect the f-16s were more about anti-drone operations but, reasonable.

I think human operators are more to prevent shooting down non-combatant aircraft like commercial airline and civilian planes neither of which are broadcasting Friend or Foe signals to air defense operators.

That is the on paper reason. I would take a look at how much friendly fire we and our allies have done and… yeah, it is liability and being able to say a human is involved for the purposes of an audit/

ArbitraryValue ,

how much friendly fire we and our allies have done

Preventing all friendly fire is hard. Militaries aren’t just putting on an act.

partial_accumen ,

I think anything short of a ballistic missile against a “near peer” IS outdated tech at this point,

I don’t think that would be an opinion shared by many. Short range ballistic missiles are exactly that. Short range aka “tactical”. One example of an operational US tactical ballistic missiles are ATACMS. These have a maximum range of about 300km. To get anything longer range that is a ballistic missile you go into “strategic” ballistic missiles. The problem with these is we use these for nuclear strikes. If you launch one of these, every country around the world will assume its nuclear armed and could respond in kind. There is no geopolitical concept of “Trust me bro, its just a conventional warhead”.

The US loves its cruise missiles. Think about how extensively the Tomahawk cruise missile has been used over the last 2 decades.

but doing rough napkin math gives about an hour from launch to impact. I still suspect the f-16s were more about anti-drone operations but, reasonable.

Here’s the results of the latest missile attack on Ukraine from a couple of days ago:

  • 3 Kh-47M2 “Kinzhal” aeroballistic missiles from the airspace of the Ryazan and Lipetsk regions - Russian Federation;
  • 6 ballistic missiles “Iskander-M” /KN -23 from the Kursk, Voronezh regions - Russian Federation. and from Crimea;
  • 77 Kh-101 cruise missiles from Tu-95MS aircraft from the airspace of the Volgograd region and the Caspian Sea region;
  • 28 Kalibr cruise missiles from surface/underwater carriers in the eastern part of the Black Sea;
  • 3 Kh-22 cruise missiles from the airspace of the Voronezh region. - Russian Federation;
  • 10 Kh-59/Kh-69 guided air missiles from Su-57, Su-34 aircraft from the airspace of the Belgorod region. and from the Mariupol district;
  • 109 strike UAVs “Shahed-131/136” - launch areas of Primorsko-Akhtarsk, Kursk, Yeisk - Russian Federation, Chauda - Crimea.

Of those 236 weapons launched by russia, only 6 were ballistic missiles). 109 were prop driven UAV (drone). That leaves a whole bunch of cruise missiles and 3 hypersonic missiles.

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

That is where the near peer aspect comes in.

The US LOVES cruise missiles because we, basically since Vietnam, have consistently gone up against groups with significantly lesser technology (often the stuff that even russia doesn’t want anymore). It is the same logic behind how nightvision goggles used to provide an insurmountable advantage and are now basically normal kit against a near peer. Or how tanks were amazing for like… World War 1 and a few weeks of World War 2? And these days are ATGM magnets where a comparatively low cost infantry weapon can take out state of the art equipment.

And that is kind of what we have here. russia needed to launch 127 missiles to get 20 though. That is when you start doing the math on whether the significantly lower costs make it “worth it” relative to a short-ish range ballistic missile. Same with any other technology in war.

As for “if it is any bigger people will think it is a nuke”. That is nonsense and mostly only applies when two nuclear powers are going up against each other which we already avoid for countless other reasons (yay proxy wars). Unless there is irrefutable evidence that it is an ICBM going a couple hundred kilometers into Ukraine AND Zelensky et al can get on TV in time? “Oh no. Whoever could have seen this coming? Hey putin, this is your last warning”.

partial_accumen ,

That is where the near peer aspect comes in.

“near peer” to whom? The USA or Ukraine?

For Ukraine, russia IS near peer.

As for “if it is any bigger people will think it is a nuke”. That is nonsense and mostly only applies when two nuclear powers are going up against each other which we already avoid for countless other reasons (yay proxy wars).

Who else besides nuclear powers do you know are operating a fleet of strategic ballistic missiles?

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

For Ukraine, russia IS near peer.

Yes? And, as a result, Russia had to fire off 127 missiles to get 20 through. Which raises the question of if this is even a good use of resources/funds/material. Not sure how you missed that when I said it above.

Who else besides nuclear powers do you know are operating a fleet of strategic ballistic missiles?

Powers that spend a lot of money buying those from those nuclear powers? So… basically the same as it has been since the 1950s or so?

Again, you seem to have missed where I addressed this exact point. So I’ll just repeat it

and mostly only applies when two nuclear powers are going up against each other which we already avoid for countless other reasons (yay proxy wars). Unless there is irrefutable evidence that it is an ICBM going a couple hundred kilometers into Ukraine AND Zelensky et al can get on TV in time? “Oh no. Whoever could have seen this coming? Hey putin, this is your last warning”.

But hey, maybe that was confusing. If Russia launches a bunch of non-nuclear ICBMs at the US? We probably already started World War 3 when Russia shot up Alaska or whatever happened during this apocalypse timeline.

If Russia fires a bunch of ICBMs at Ukraine? Common sense is that they aren’t nuclear (because of how close they are) but it is in NATO’s best interest to “wait and see” in the exact same way we did a wait and see when russia invaded Ukraine the past couple times. We only act if we have no other choice because nuclear powers engaging in direct war is already an endstate.

catloaf ,

It’s not cutting edge any more, but I wouldn’t say everything else is outdated. They have different applications. I presume ballistic missiles are more expensive, too.

tilefan ,

that’s why cruise missiles like the Storm Shadow have stealth technology, because they can be targeted by standard anti-aircraft systems, be the ground or air-based

peopleproblems ,

Ha, that reminds me of what Biden said about the Hypersonic missile technology: “They’re almost impossible to defeat.”

doodledup ,

What do you mean? Hypersonic are a multitude faster than 1200 km/h.

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

My understanding is that anything newer than a V2 rocket is just too fast for a jet pilot to actively engage.

No. The bulk of the missiles used in this attack were Kh-101, which cruise around 800 km/h, well below the max speed of the F-16 itself (1300 km/h or so) let alone the missiles it carries.

shalafi ,

Saw a guy here on c/ukraine shoot down a cruise missile with a .50-cal mounted on a truck. 🤷

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