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PseudoSpock ,
@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

2 billion was perfect. Let’s get back to that and stay there.

don ,

I’m so glad I didn’t selfishly pull my unborn children out of perfectly peaceful nonexistence and into this horrid timeline.

TheBigBrother ,

The depopulation plan it’s going smooth…

Gsus4 ,
@Gsus4@mander.xyz avatar

Without unemployment, without bullshit jobs and with automation, we could probably do all we do today just 1 billion people worldwide, no?

AA5B ,

No. The world population has doubled in my lifetime. While I agree that’s too much, I see much faster scientific, medical and technology progress than ever before. I see more chance to be dreamers and explorers, more chances to build a better society. There’s more art, more freedom, and ever higher quality of life. We have been doing much better with more people.

I don’t know what an ideal number would be, but I expect it’s more than half the current population

Zaktor ,

Why do you think all that good stuff is due to more people rather than just technological advancement yielding faster technological advancement? The person tending to an ever growing landfill isn’t an essential component of modern life. The well-functioning landfill might be, but the person is just moving trash around. Replace them with a robot and the trash still gets moved around, will no reduction in art, freedom, or QoL.

index ,

Governments needs more slaves and army conscripts, hurry up and have more children

grte ,

The world population has nearly doubled in my lifetime. That’s not sustainable. We need to build systems that promote and function within a state of equilibrium.

Rhaedas ,

The first publishing of "Limits to Growth" suggested that if immediate actions were done to curtail growth and use of resources, the world could possibly in many decades peak and then come back down to a sustainable flat line. That was in 1970. 54 years ago we may have had a chance - although the research didn't include many things not known to them, including the impact of climate change that was already underway and just not obvious (the ocean was buffering much of the effects for a long time).

My non-scientific opinion is that crossing the line of hunter-gatherer to agriculture was the real point of no return. We gained a lot from that, but it also sealed our path and fate. Finding the rich energy source of petroleum was the final accelerant.

ininewcrow ,
@ininewcrow@lemmy.ca avatar

We don’t need a higher birth rate … we need a better quality of life for everyone.

Badeendje ,
@Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, Hans Rossling had a cool tes talk about the direct correlation between family sizes and access to healthcare. If the life expectancy goes up, family sizes go down. The talk

Now we have reached a point where the system in a lot of countries works against the forever growth as people need to work work work and don’t see a future for themselves, let alone for a family.

HubertManne ,

Hopefully not.

CanadaPlus , (edited )

Yeah, I’m going to go ahead and say that as long as global population is going up, we’re having too many, not too few. Once it levels off we may have to think about whether we want to degrow the population or just leave it.

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if by the 2080s, “peak human” according to the quoted estimate, Brave New World baby factories are an option should we need them.

Spacehooks ,

Doubt we even need them unless its for organs. Companies are always trying to do more with less. It’s better to just not hire more staff that retired or left than laying off some. Smaller well educated population is better than bloated useless one.

CanadaPlus ,

Yeah, I’m going to go ahead and guess that 1 or 2 billion is enough long-term to retain all the diversity of lifestyle we’ve come to love, and then each person will be able to safely consume many times more.

Spacehooks ,

I read 10k was minimum for space colony to keep good biodiversity. We can lose pops for a while. So long as automation keeps up.

CanadaPlus ,

Yeah. I’m guessing technologies would start to get lost if we went below a million without careful planning, but even then we have centuries of exponential decrease to go before we’re really in trouble.

Even without automation, less people means less consumers, so the only pain is short term as there’s a ton of decrepit old people (like me if I’m still around) for the youth to care for. Some large projects might lose economy of scale, but then again anything finite like land will get way cheaper.

Spacehooks ,

Lost knowlege has precedent in history. That’s when 40k style Standard Template Construct come into effect. Which We already started with chat gpt and such. Just need to optimize it. Bigger issue is if humanity will progress In technology or remain stagnate.

People keep saying we need to worry about elderly but realistically if there is less manufacturing or service jobs from automation and people don’t want robot carer’s then technically there would be more care jobs open. Seems like will sort itself out in the end.

CanadaPlus ,

Bigger issue is if humanity will progress In technology or remain stagnate.

That’s also a good point. There is a quote, “society progresses one funeral at a time”. That goes for social progress, and to a degree for scientific progress as well.

I’m going to go ahead and say I don’t want today’s old people in charge forever.

Seems like will sort itself out in the end.

Yeah, I’m not terribly worried about everything else; we got lucky inventing mass contraception when we did.

HubertManne ,

that is the level I think the world could handle and recover year to year (well if it was not overtaxed to begin with) and allow folks to have a modern type of lifestyle with our current don't try crappy way of doing things.

erusuoyera ,

The main driver of population growth is people living longer. The problem with less babies being born means less young labourers for all the old fucks to exploit. Logan’s Run would be a better sci-fi system to adopt.

CanadaPlus , (edited )

Right now it’s still birth rate, to be clear. Life expectancy as gone up by mere years over the decades, while births per adult woman is still double digit in a few select countries.

Biology is exploding right now, though, and I fully expect aging to settle down suddenly. I’ll have to look up what Logan’s Run is.

Edit: 30 is definitely too low for a maximum age, lol. People commonly work into their 60s. I expect that decline in age will slow down as well, so that helps offset things, and then if there’s still a population crunch geezers like me should start doing “lotteries”. Maybe literal Russian roulette, for the style factor.

AA5B ,

Once it levels off we may have to think about whether we want to degrow the population

The problem is this is one of those long term things that people have a hard time understanding. By the time you see it level off, it’s decades too late to change things. Let’s not make the same mistake as we continue to do with climate: instead of putting it off until it becomes a crisis let’s make small changes now so the crisis doesn’t happen.

We definitely can’t grow population forever and are likely beyond a sustainable population already, but let’s try for a smooth leveling off and soft landing rather than flying off a cliff and crashing into the rocks

CanadaPlus ,

Hmm. So how should we go about that today? Trying to raise population growth in developed countries, besides having proven very hard to do ethically, makes the problem with a high peak population worse.

LibertyLizard ,

The issue is growth rates are wildly different among different areas and cultures. The population in some places is dropping precipitously which will cause economic problems, especially around elder care.

While I agree that a gradual population reduction would be beneficial, rapid declines will increase human suffering and should be avoided.

CanadaPlus , (edited )

different areas and cultures

It’s really more wealth and education based. Muslim Kazakhstan has a birth rate near replacement, neighboring Tajikistan has a big one, and Afghanistan a couple of stans down has one sky high. Further south yet, India still has a very family-centric culture, but they’ve dropped below replacement now.

All problems right now, when there’s a global surplus, are due to lack of immigration. I say we work on that.

dogslayeggs ,

Maybe we don’t need more people in the world?

foggy , (edited )

We simply need money.

Give me 3x my finances and I’ll have 2 kids.

Edit: There appears to be a significant lack of education in this comment thread.

HubertManne ,

not if the cost goes up 3x to. give me enough for a house and yard and reliable car or make reliable transit where the house is and enough for the family to eat healthy with some spoilage treat behavior and get them standard stuff like a laptop and have decent chance for a good educaton and in my case make me 30 years younger.

sunzu2 ,

not if the cost goes up 3x to

That's the big point most people have not grasped yet.

The regime is set up in a way that it does not matter how much money you give plebs, they got all the data and will price everything to extract it all. The goal is that peasant keeps no surplus or better put that slave into debt.

I got nothing to hide crowd... Are fucking frogs into he boiling pot, too stupid to realize they are collaborating with the enemy lol

CanadaPlus ,

Prices are not, for the most part, set by a regime. It’s dumber than that, it’s just concentrating itself for math reasons.

sunzu2 ,

I see your point but let's not underestimate that corps use data to fix wages and prices.

So at very least they are accelerating the fuxkening of the slaves.

They would pay realpage to aggregate their proprietary data to fix rents unless it was profitable.

CanadaPlus ,

The article covers that. So far handout policies have only given a transient spike in births.

foggy , (edited )

Handouts are not enough for me to not pull out.

I need more income. There is a massive difference.

CanadaPlus ,

Fair.

I personally just don’t want kids, for reasons that have nothing to do with money. I don’t know for sure how many people that applies to, but I’m guessing it’s not insignificant. In another time it wasn’t a choice unless you wanted to be celibate.

AA5B ,

Yep, this means we need to try even harder. It’s a good thing that we’ve gotten to the point where people have more choices and are more in control of their own lives. We should never have to give this up.

However then the future of our society depends even more on fewer people deciding to have more children. Why would they decide to do that? How can we help make this choice easier for them?

AA5B ,

That doesn’t mean they don’t work. It could also mean they weren’t enough or they targeted the wrong things. With the future of our entire society at stake, surely we can spend more than a slightly better tax deduction.

I love my kids, but everything is more expensive, more time consuming, requiring more coordination with more people. Plus how will you find people who want to have kids if they can’t even spend time with them, to help them grow and develop, and discover the world?

CanadaPlus ,

Yeah, I can’t say money couldn’t work, especially if it’s recurring like someone else said. It hasn’t to date though.

AA5B ,

Money is not enough, especially if both parents have to work. At least as importantly, most of us no longer have the support of extended family and communities, or the ability to have a stay at home parent to help make it work and those are equally important

baggins ,

They could they’re just not willing to do what would be required.

sunzu2 ,

Governments will not turn the tide because the u official policy is to work current population to death which inherently will lead to low birth rates.

They are not changing this policy, fuck you peasants!

Any shortage will be made with migrant labour who are pliable anyway... Lower wages, less talking back.

So while conservatives are clowns with the replacement theory bullshit.... Rhreee brown bad, white good angle is beyond retarded.

The facts are facts. Indigenous populations are in unable to sustain capitalist machine and the regime has no problem bring in to make the difference.

If you really think that government is going to address fertility issues with proper social policy...

Then you are just playing into their hand. They are front running the issue with some limp dicm response to maintain the status quo.

TachyonTele ,

I don’t know. Do we really need to replace another 8.2 billion people, does that line really need to go up?

AA5B ,

No, but we also don’t want that line to suddenly plummet either.

Think of it this way: birth rate of one is half replacement value and most developed countries are there. We’re already having half the children we need to stay level but it’s not obvious because of the larger generations still living. In 20 years, that half population will half yet again, one quarter the children to level off. Then those older generations age out, and you get larger generations replaced by multiple halvings. For example if you live three generations, then at the end of your life, the population is only 1/8 what it was. Obviously it won’t be this simple and many things could affect birthrate but I find this trend frightening for humanity’s future. We’re not talking lower population but facing the possibility of a crashing population

verdantbanana ,
@verdantbanana@lemmy.world avatar

the US has already implemented policy changes to combat the problem

sunzu2 ,

🤡

HubertManne ,

is it enough though. Are we properly inspecting non pregnant womens vaginas to make sure they are keeping them filled with cum?

sunzu2 ,

Can't even provide women with maternity leave... This is what a degeneracy looks like folks.

Dont have to leave your state!

AA5B ,

Yeah but at least we no longer let them have control of their own bodies.

sunzu2 ,

Somebody has to breed the next generation of wage slaves and these bitches haven't been doing their mother fucking job!!!!

MediaBiasFactChecker Bot ,

The Guardian - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)Information for The Guardian:
> MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: Medium - Factual Reporting: Mixed - United Kingdom
> Wikipedia about this source

Search topics on Ground.Newshttps://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/11/global-birthrates-dropping

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