There have been multiple accounts created with the sole purpose of posting advertisement posts or replies containing unsolicited advertising.

Accounts which solely post advertisements, or persistently post them may be terminated.

The left-wing French coalition hoping to introduce 90% tax on rich

Multiple parties are jockeying for position in the aftermath of France’s seismic snap election. The leftist New Popular Front (NPF) insists its ideas should be implemented.

France’s left wing New Popular Front (NPF) - now the largest group in parliament - has called for a prime minister who will implement its ideas including a new wealth tax and petrol price controls.

The leftist alliance secured the most seats in the recent French elections but fell short of the 289 needed for a majority in the National Assembly, France’s lower house of parliament.

President Emmanuel Macron’s Together bloc came in second and Marine Le Pen’s far-right National Rally (RN) party finished third.

France’s parties are now jockeying for position and it’s unclear exactly how things will shake out, but the NPF has insisted it will implement its radical set of ideas.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I will enjoy hearing about how the rich will just move away from their fancy mansions on the Riviera and their suites in Paris to avoid paying this tax and then seeing it not happen.

grrgyle ,

Some of them, sure, but I wonder how many would consider it worth the price. This is an income taxe I’m assuming, so it’s not like they’d lose out on actual wealth, investments, etc.

It might be worth it if even just half stay and pay the taxe.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

That was my point- they won’t leave. They like living there too much. That’s just always the excuse when such taxes are proposed for not doing them. “The rich will all just leave.”

Wxnzxn ,
@Wxnzxn@lemmy.ml avatar

While I agree, they most certainly will still try their damnedest to avoid it. From illegal stuff like tax fraud, to trying stuff like officially “moving” their workplace to a tax haven, while still living in France. There would definitely be more class warfare to be had, even after this were to pass (which they of course will fight tooth and nail against)

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

No doubt. The rich can afford to pay people to find every loophole and take advantage of everything they can take advantage of. But I’m still glad this is happening.

grrgyle ,

And it doesn’t have to work perfectly to be worth it. Even if through rich-person fuckery they manage to stuff their (overseas) mattresses with hidden income, I’d bet the net result would be more €€€ in the public coffres.

not_woody_shaw ,

If it’s successful presumably other places will start to follow suit. Somebody’s gotta go first tho.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It wasn’t done nationally, but the U.S. state of Massachusetts did it recently and it was quite successful.

Once again, the rich people with their Boston penthouses and Cape Cod beach homes didn’t want to leave.

cbsnews.com/…/massachusetts-millionaires-tax-free…

They raised $1 billion off of the relatively small number of rich people living in that state when the U.S. as a whole is taken into account.

There’s just no question to me that such taxes work. And the more places you implement them, the harder it will be to escape them.

reksas ,

Even if rich leave, so what? They dont have to pay taxes for shit and what little they do have to pay they will just avoid anyway.

not_woody_shaw ,

Real estate prices go down a little? It’s hard to see a downside.

grrgyle ,

Ah I misunderstood. I see we’re in total agreement.

Still glad I made my comment, if only as a foil against general doomerism.

d00phy ,

I think I’ve had this conversation with you before. Anyone who uses the “they’ll just leave” argument as a reason not to do it simply isn’t arguing in good faith.

This is a good start, for sure, but it should not be the end at all. The wealthier people get, the more effort they put into hiding/keeping that wealth.

Income/wealth/property/capital gains taxation is a balancing act. You want everyone paying their share; and everyone simultaneously agrees with that notion, while wanting to pay the absolute least for themselves. I would also argue that people need to see the benefits of that taxation in the form of maintained infrastructure and properly funded services. If it all just goes into the pockets of, e.g., the US military industrial complex, people will be less inclined to pay taxes at all.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Entirely possible. I’ve certainly discussed this topic multiple times. And yes, agreed, we need to do a lot more to curb excessive wealth.

Grandwolf319 ,

I never understood this argument. As a middle class person, I would highly prefer if all rich people left.

They are the ones hording the wealth.

Wealth is generated by applying labour to natural resources, that process doesn’t really include rich people, they just gate the resources.

SuddenDownpour ,

Besides, the mere fact of implementing those tax rates makes high end luxury homes less valuable, because rich people from abroad will have less incentives to want to move there. So, if rich French people want to move from a very expensive home in France to a very expensive home in Germany, the new one will have to be less luxurious, because they won’t be able to sell the old one for that much.

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

Why would they move? This is an income tax, not a wealth tax and the wealthy typically have relatively little “income”. Sure they may have a net worth of tens, hundreds, or even thousands of millions but their “incomes” (as defined by tax codes) can be surprisingly low.

Look at the CEOs like Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos whose salary was a single US dollar. They were incredibly wealthy but had nearly no normal income.

So unless you jigger the tax code to capture the work arounds the wealthy use this income tax will hardly touch them. It will only catch high wage earners, like a software dev working FAANG or something.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I guess that’s an argument for also having a wealth tax.

Because most of them still won’t move. Paris will not become a less desirable city to live in.

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

I guess that’s an argument for also having a wealth tax.

I think it would be easier if they rewrote the tax code so that everything (loans, stock sales, etc) counted as regular income and was subject to taxes.

TheEighthDoctor ,

Paris will not become a less desirable city to live in.

Was it ever desirable?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

The city of light? The city of love? Famed for its art and culture and cuisine? Full of beautiful architecture?

No, no one ever wants to go there.

TheEighthDoctor ,

Have you ever been there or just seen the photos?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I get that you don’t like Paris, but there’s a reason why a lot of rich people live there and it isn’t because it’s a terrible place.

sparky ,
@sparky@lemmy.federate.cc avatar

This does actually happen more than you think - it’s why all the world’s football and tennis stars miraculously decide to move to Monte Carlo as soon as they hit the riches. Which is exactly why we need a coordinated tax policy at an EU, EEA or global level, to make sure that you can’t just choose a neighbouring country and pay an order of magnitude less.

jumjummy ,

Problem is that the Uber wealthy have all sorts of extra tax vehicles that even the 400k/year income folks don’t have. With various holding companies owning the various assets you use (e.g your car, house, etc.) your on-paper income can be quite a bit lower. Throw in various deductions and that’s how you get super wealthy people paying less taxes than “regular” people. Progressive tax rates already exist, and while this increases the percentage at these incomes, unless it addresses all the other loopholes, this will conveniently miss the 1% and instead impact high earning professionals.

kibiz0r ,

Honestly, they should probably leave income alone and just double down on the wealth tax.

Wage-based taxation has always been an awkward way to target the rich.

I have very different feelings about someone from a poor background who went into massive debt to develop their skills and become a top earner vs. someone who inherited a fortune and doesn’t put any effort beyond checking their bank balance periodically.

Plus, there is the “won’t they just leave?” argument. Which is mostly FUD, but in the case where someone’s wealth is based on their skilled labor they do have a much easier time just leaving. If your wealth is from owning a portfolio of apartment buildings, good luck taking those with you.

BakerBagel ,

Does no one here understand how incone taxes work? The 90% rate is on annual income over €400,000. Average annual income in France was €41,000.

NounsAndWords ,

I think the guy you’re responding to is more talking about the distinction between income and capital gains, with income making up far less of the wealthy’s worth than existing investments.

But yes, a lot of people also have no concept of how tax brackets work.

frezik ,

Right. Someone with a networth of many millions may only have a yearly income of $100k. Sometimes far less. Different tax systems can also have different definitions of income. Is inheritance income? Are growth stocks that you haven’t cashed in yet income? Are stock dividends income? You can answer yes or no to any of these, but however you answer, you can still structure the tax system around those answers to come to an equitable arrangement.

Dyf_Tfh ,

The end result is that basically no one will be subject to this tax bracket.

It is high enough that everyone at that level will mainly get their real income from stock/loan which aren’t salaries.

Having this tax bracket or not having it is, basically the same for the super wealthy. The real method to tax them is through capital tax, not income.

Zeratul ,

I see fud used on a semi regular basis. It’s fear uncertainty and doubt. And I don’t think most people know that.

PugJesus ,

I wasn’t sure, but I was worried that’s what it was

Evotech ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/28f6693a-540b-49ac-b10a-47a34b227bac.png

The moving part is very real for the ultra rich in Europe.

Urist ,
@Urist@lemmy.ml avatar

In Norway they transfer their assets to their kids and send them to live in Switzerland for them.

CanadaPlus ,

Yeah, it’s not FUD.

It’s really gotta be a 100% tax (that is, a hard cap) or nothing. Wealth that slowly whittles away will tend to move elsewhere.

jj4211 ,

Wage-based taxation has always been an awkward way to target the rich.

Is it wages or is it income? Income covers much more than wages, and in a good system one would account for everything without loopholes. A comprehensive income tax that catches everything would go pretty far.

Wealth tax can be dicey, in theory. It would require a sell-off to actually have money that can be used to pay taxes, and the sell-off would change the value of the assets. For example, the S&P 500 is “worth” 46 billion dollars. That’s more than twice the “money” that exists total, it’s literally impossible to actually manifest all of that to dollars, so most of the “worth” cannot be “realized”.

uis ,

but in the case where someone’s wealth is based on their skilled labor they do have a much easier time just leaving. If your wealth is from owning a portfolio of apartment buildings, good luck taking those with you.

Nice one

bitflag ,

If your wealth is from owning a portfolio of apartment buildings, good luck taking those with you.

Sell it to a holding company incorporated abroad. Own shares of that holding company instead.

StaySquared ,

lol it’s like France loves to choose violence every time.

uis ,

National sport. It’s fifth time now. If right would become too hard to fight against, then it will be sixth.

ArbitraryValue ,

The problem with high wealth taxes is the same as the problem with nationalizing privately-owned businesses. Even if you’re not worried about the people you tax fleeing the country (maybe they can’t because their investments aren’t mobile) you still have to worry about the fact that no one would build anything in France (even things not currently taxed) if there was good reason to think that France might suddenly decide to seize a large fraction of its value.

(High income taxes aren’t as big a deal because wealthy people can restructure their investments in order to avoid most of them, but I wonder whether the lost economic activity is actually worth more to the country than the money raised by the tax.)

avidamoeba , (edited )
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

Most people who actually build everything do not have significant enough wealth to be affected. France doesn’t need someone with significant wealth in order to build something. France can provide the financial capital. We do know that public investment spurs private investment, but private investment isn’t strictly required.

Besides, we’ve already seen plenty examples of countries where people with significant wealth do not use it to build things in low tax destinations, especially where that low tax results in crumbling infrastructure and unstable labor and political climate.

I wonder whether the lost economic activity is actually worth more to the country than the money raised by the tax.

The answer is “yes” it’s worth it. Answering “no” puts you in a race to the bottom which leads to dysfunctional economy and eventually some sort of political upheaval, during which wealth and factories are exceedingly likely to be taken away anyways. See history for references. Also every EUR creates more economic activity at the bottom, than the top. The vast majority of the aggregate demand in richer economies isn’t comprised from the top 1%. The aggregate demand is what makes it worth making things and what drives significant private investment. Drive it down and there comes a point where no amount of tax cuts can offset it.

KevonLooney ,

Yeah, the person you responded to doesn’t understand investment. No one makes investments based on taxes. They make investments based on demand.

That’s why people build in NYC which has a million taxes and regulations, while tiny island tax havens have little investment beyond tourism. No, Austin is not the next Silicon Valley no matter how many tax breaks they give out. No, Atlanta is not the next Hollywood.

johny ,

Macron would probably sooner dissolve the republic and declare the third empire than allow this to happen, but I wish the NPF good luck.

As Macron likes to say: “Souverän ist, wer über den Ausnahmezustand entscheidet”

atro_city ,

https://www.tax-the-rich.eu/

Tax them. Tax the fuck out of their income and wealth.

hungryphrog ,

hell yea

autotldr Bot ,

This is the best summary I could come up with:

France’s left wing New Popular Front (NPF) - now the largest group in parliament - has called for a prime minister who will implement its ideas including a new wealth tax and petrol price controls.

The leftist alliance secured the most seats in the recent French elections but fell short of the 289 needed for a majority in the National Assembly, France’s lower house of parliament.

President Emmanuel Macron’s Together bloc came in second and Marine Le Pen’s far-right National Rally (RN) party finished third.

France’s parties are now jockeying for position and it’s unclear exactly how things will shake out, but the NPF has insisted it will implement its radical set of ideas.

It is possible that President Macron - who called the snap election in a bid to counter the rise of the far-right - could seek a deal with more moderate elements of the NFP.

His government last week suspended a decree that would have diminished workers’ rights to unemployment benefits, which has been interpreted as a gesture toward the left.

The original article contains 388 words, the summary contains 174 words. Saved 55%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • [email protected]
  • random
  • lifeLocal
  • goranko
  • All magazines
    •