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afraid_of_zombies ,

Government demands fictional story of rape be presented on school grounds.

DreamAccountant ,

Gotta show off that fictional rape baby. OR ELSE! It’s just a highly religiously influenced state fighting against the people not giving a shit about bad religious fiction.

“Don’t you take that rape baby display down! My fictional god raped that child to make that fictional baby, and you’re going to look at it every single year of your life!”

StrongHorseWeakNeigh ,

deleted_by_author

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    wahming ,

    Your point being?

    StrongHorseWeakNeigh ,

    deleted_by_author

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    wahming ,

    Given the actual Jesus has as much in common with the legend as King Arthur does with whichever Brit king he’s based on, that’s just being pedantic

    BruceTwarzen ,

    So was Toby, no reason to rape his wife and blame it on a ghost.

    Infiltrated_ad8271 , (edited )
    @Infiltrated_ad8271@kbin.social avatar

    As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), apart from religious texts and later references to the religion, his existence is only recorded by one historian (josephus), but it is under dispute whether that text is authentic.

    StrongHorseWeakNeigh ,

    deleted_by_author

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    thatgirlwasfire ,

    Jesus being fictional isn’t exactly a mainstream view at the moment, but there isn’t much evidence for his existence.

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

    ArtieShaw ,
    @ArtieShaw@kbin.social avatar

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus

    A google of "historicity of Jesus" will turn up some results. The wiki link is one of at least three very similar wiki articles on the topic.

    tl/dr - it's generally accepted that Jesus was a historical person but all that can be confirmed from written accounts is 1) he was baptized and 2) he was crucified.

    Of course people can and do question the independent contemporary Jewish (Josephus) or Roman (Tacitus and Pliny) sources, but they seem to be in the minority. Even the less shady version of Josephus's passage suggests that he was talking about a person who existed.

    I don't have anything to add since I'm not Christian - merely surrounded by Christians. I've done a fair bit of reading trying to figure out what's going on with all that.

    NAXLAB ,

    Doesn’t really matter cuz the Jesus they care about is the fictional Jesus in the story.

    chitak166 , (edited )

    I’m just curious, is it a rape baby because Mary was underage?

    Edit: Apparently the only reasons I’ve seen people mention are that:

    1. She was raped because she was underage.
    2. She was raped because she agreed to be impregnated by God, which has a power imbalance.

    You all can judge for yourselves, but I just figured I’d save you the time of sifting through this fairly-useless comment chain.

    TheGrandNagus ,

    I imagine they’re referring to Mary never really saying “yeah it’s fine if you impregnate me” before she gets impregnated.

    chitak166 ,

    That doesn’t really make sense.

    01011 ,

    Who told you that religion makes sense?

    chitak166 ,

    I didn’t know religion taught that Mary was raped.

    01011 ,

    “Immaculate conception” is suggestive of a Pill Cosby situation.

    chitak166 ,

    I’ve never heard those words before.

    TheGrandNagus ,

    What would you call impregnating someone without consent? Sounds akin to rape to me.

    But tbh that’s the least of the dodgy parts of Christianity/Abrahamic religions in general

    chitak166 ,

    Does religion teach that she didn’t give consent?

    TheGrandNagus ,

    Yes.

    chitak166 ,

    That’s interesting. Can you give me more information so I can learn more about it myself?

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    Read the Bible.

    chitak166 ,

    I did and it says nothing about Mary being raped.

    If you could clarify what part of the Bible says that, then your comment would matter.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    No you didn’t.

    TheGrandNagus , (edited )

    The story changes depending on which book of the new testament you read, but it essentially boils down to

    • Mary becomes pregnant out of nowhere and is somehow aware of it and that it was god who did it (but never agreed to it)
    • Mary is visited by an angel who tells her god will impregnate her very soon
    • Mary is visited by an angel who tells her god will impregnate her very soon, Mary is afraid but says yes

    I’m going to be extremely charitable here and go with that last option, that’s still kinda messed up.

    We already know that a power imbalance can make it seem like you have to accept their advances “or else” (think Harvey Weinstein or someone groomed by their priest or a family member).

    The power imbalance here is between a teenage girl and the person she knows, from the Old Testament/Torah, to be an all-powerful, vengeful, genocidal, and sadistic deity. She doesn’t really have a choice but to go ahead with it. Does that sound like real consent to you?

    chitak166 ,

    Does that sound like real consent to you?

    I think that’s a philosophical question I’m not equipped to answer, but thank you for the explanation.

    This was way more informative and insightful than what other people were saying, lol.

    vengeful, genocidal, and sadistic

    I wonder if most people thought this about God at the time.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    In the two narratives (that contradict each other because the authors were liars) she didn’t consent to getting pregnant.

    chitak166 ,

    What does that mean? She consented to sex but not pregnancy? Essentially, “just pull out bro”?

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    How are you mystified by this concept? Sex should involve both parties agreeing that they are okay with what is going on. This also includes fertilization without sex. I, and no other male who has ever lived or will ever live, doesn’t have the right to just make a woman have my child without her agreeing. Mary did not consent to any of this in the story. It is rape.

    Good thing not a single aspect of the story occurred. Every nativity scene you have seen in your life depicts the fictional story of a woman raped. Maybe I shouldn’t have used the word woman given her age and should have said girl instead given her age.

    chitak166 ,

    Because it’s a very weird distinction to be taught in a religion? “Yes, Mary agreed to having sex but she did not agree to getting pregnant.” This just doesn’t make sense at a time when women were treated worse than a man’s property.

    Mary did not consent to any of this in the story.

    So like, did she say no? Were guards sent to capture her? I’m genuinely curious about the story being told, but all you’ve people done was tell me “she didn’t consent.” Is that it? Is that what the Bible says?

    The fact that you people are so averse to sharing this simple information with me makes me dubious of its existence.

    I’m willing to be proven wrong though!

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    Ffs you could have just read the biblical account by now. First chapter of Luke and Matthew. I am done spoon-feeding and enabling your laziness

    chitak166 ,

    I read those and it doesn’t say she was raped.

    I also did an internet search because you seem pretty useless, “was Mary raped in the Bible” and the only explanations I am seeing for that is that she was underage. This is what I asked about in the beginning of this comment chain.

    I feel like if it was so clear and obvious Mary was raped in the Bible, it would be easier to find information on it!

    But that’s okay. It’s already clear you’re lying and that’s why you keep trying to send me on a wild goose chase. I’ve seen it many times, and it happens pretty much without fail when pressing people like you for evidence to support their claims.

    Here’s a little Reddit thread that’s very similar: old.reddit.com/r/…/was_mary_raped_by_god/

    Looks like everyone who says she was raped say it’s only because she was underage. You’re afraid to admit that’s the only reason why because you are arguing in bad-faith (heh.)

    UnPassive ,

    Dog, she was impregnated by the holy ghost without consent. I don’t believe that actually happened, but that’s what the bible says…

    chitak166 ,

    Luke 1:38 ‘And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”

    This was mentioned as evidence that she consented. Do you have any evidence to suggest otherwise?

    UnPassive ,

    Seems like a bit of a power dynamic problem… one could argue Job consented to all his bad treatment by trusting in the lord. Abraham was gonna kill his son. But I’d wager if I asked them, as a stranger, there’s no way any of them would consent. It’s the threat of etarnal fire that inspires such devotion and sacrifice. Bit of an unhealthy relationship if you ask me… my Christian parents are happy to ruin their lives for a better afterlife - including eroding their relationships with their kids. Bit sad. If I did believe in a god, I wouldn’t believe that he sent us here to make us suffer and make sacrifices.

    But you are correct, the gospel I was looking at didn’t mention Mary giving consent. Just one of the problems of having 4 conflicting accounts…

    crandlecan ,

    Fascist clowns 🤮

    Marsupial ,
    @Marsupial@quokk.au avatar

    A draft law introduced on Wednesday seeks to protect the country’s “cultural roots” by promoting “traditional” Christmas and Easter celebrations.

    Shouldn’t they go back to worshipping the Roman gods in that case?

    crandlecan ,

    By Totis!

    floofloof ,

    Fascism isn’t about logic or argument though; it’s about constantly defining and redefining the characteristics of the in-group so you can blame, persecute and kill those you exclude from it.

    BestBouclettes ,

    And trying to go back to a time of glory that never really existed in the first place

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    The Roman empire had at least 7 fictional dying-and-rising gods, Jesus was only one of them. How about a display to Osiris, he was the god of multiple stuff including agriculture. Aren’t crops more important than just about anything else? I demand an Osiris nativity scene!

    autotldr Bot ,

    This is the best summary I could come up with:

    Italy’s far-right government is seeking to crack down on schools that scrap Christian nativity scenes in order to reflect greater religious diversity.

    A draft law introduced on Wednesday seeks to protect the country’s “cultural roots” by promoting “traditional” Christmas and Easter celebrations.

    “For some years now we have witnessed unacceptable and embarrassing decisions by some schools that ban nativity scenes or modify the deep essence of Christmas by transforming it into improbable winter festivities so as not to offend believers of other religions,” said Lavinia Mennuni, a senator for the ruling Brothers of Italy party, who introduced the bill.

    “Allowing the transformation of the Sacred Christian holidays into another anonymous type of celebration would constitute discrimination against the students and their families practicing the majority religion as well as an attack on the values and the deepest tradition of our people,” the draft text reads.

    Riccardo Magi, secretary of the left-wing More Europe party, wrote on X (formerly Twitter) that the Brothers of Italy’s proposal “should offend all believers, as well as being unconstitutional because it contradicts freedom of worship”.

    “Instead of governing the country, a duty they [the Brothers of Italy] don’t know how to manage, they continue to use ‘weapons of distraction’ like this law against principals who agree to the removal of the nativity scene at school,” said Luana Zanella from the Green Europe party.

    The original article contains 399 words, the summary contains 228 words. Saved 43%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

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