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scarabic ,

“Sign in to play?” Am I the only one seeing this?

UnD3Rgr0uNDCL0wN OP ,

It was open before. They must have locked it off. Sorry.

HubertManne ,

Im sorry but I don't see damaging infrastructure which will then get rebuilt using even more energy as helping. Even worse the mitigation which means moving oil by train and ship and such. At least if you get it legally shut down it won't be rebuilt (but it will just get worked around). We need to reduce energy usage, not increase it.

scarabic ,

Okay let’s say it just gets built again.

Congratulations, protestors, you just doubled the cost of the damn thing.

How does that not help?

War of economic attrition is a patriotic tradition in the US. The colonies won independence from the British not by superior might but by making the conflict too expensive for them to maintain.

HubertManne ,

Yeah but you have not removed the energetic incentive and rebuilding causes pollution. So we add pollution to stop global warming and pollution because it helps make things more expensive which the well to do can easily afford but will make it harder for the average person. Just seems to me its adding overall to pollution and not really solving our environmental issues.

scarabic ,

You might as well say that all climate protest is counterproductive, because people use energy and create pollution just by walking out their door to go to the protest.

Isn’t it small thinking to worry about the pollution caused by the pipeline’s construction, when the pipeline itself is going to facilitate millions of times more pollution once it’s operational?

Sorry, you more or less repeated your point, and I understand you, but I’m just not convinced.

HubertManne ,

that is a ridiculous analogy because the same protestor will use approximately the same energy regardless of what they do that day. You sound like the folks that argue electric cars are more environmentall friendly because they use less energy than a bicycle but ignoring the energy of the passenger from just existing.

scarabic ,

“Energy of the passenger?”

HubertManne ,

the energy a person sitting in a car uses is not much less than the energy a bicycalists uses. Its easy to see if you have access to a gym with a bicycle machine that tells you are many calories you burn. Go burn just 100 calories and now realize people need 2000 just going about their day and doing nothing special.

scarabic ,

Are you talking about calories burned? Because riding in a car definitely has a bigger carbon impact than riding a bike. I thought we were talking about environmentalism here. When I said people use energy going to a protest I was referring to their transportation, not their frikkin metabolism.

HubertManne ,

yeah but whatever transportation they use is going to be the transportation they use for whatever they do. Im saying however they do the protest is going to be in line with how they run their daily lives and the net environmental impact is going to largely be the same. The bike thing was a seperate comparison to your way of thinking you may be mixing it up as some sort of direct comparison.

scarabic ,

Yeah I did not find that comment clear.

Anyway, transit and metabolic transmissions aside, what is your response to the below point? This is where I think your original comment about the reconstruction wasting resources really breaks down:

Isn’t it small thinking to worry about the pollution caused by the pipeline’s construction, when the pipeline itself is going to facilitate millions of times more pollution once it’s operational?

I don’t think you responded to the economic war of attrition angle, either. Making fossil fuel infrastructure projects as costly as possible to start, and risky to operate, is a direct attack on fossil fuel hegemony, since the only reason we do it is it’s cheaper and we are set up for it to be efficient. Also regular people need to feel the pinch at the pump to change their habits, which is a smaller but still valid goal.

It sounds like some people are willing to go to jail to monkeywrench the fossil fuel industry on a grand scale. I say more power to ‘em.

HubertManne ,

It stops nothing and adds to nothing. Ultimately users of oil will find oil to use be it is transported by pipeline or ship or train. The cost may slightly make non fossil fuels more competitive but I doubt enough to make such added pollution from its destruction. If we want to increase its cost we need to tax it and preferably use the whats collected to reduce renewables cost or better yet to make efficiency cheaper. It still amazes me how despite various programs so many structures are around under insulated..

DessertStorms , (edited )
@DessertStorms@kbin.social avatar

I'll admit, they said more than I thought they would in this film (like actual talk of blowing up pipelines), but I was left as frustrated as I always do by these mainstream films that think they're ground breaking but mostly just skirt around the issue - capitalism. The word (or even just the fact that it is a systemic issue) wasn't mentioned once.

Anyone who thinks our main or even only problem is oil dependency hasn't been paying attention, and anyone acting only against that single symptom of the problem will never achieve long lasting substantial change.

Green energy under capitalism is still going to come from exploitation, oppression, wage theft, and resource hoarding. It's still going to hold society ransom by charging extortionate amounts for power, and will only enrich the already obscenely wealthy.

So yeah, blowing up pipelines is certainly a more effective step than blocking a road for an hour, and yes, it is time to break the "law" (written by and in defence of those in power. ETA: which at this point also includes simple protests, so really even bare minimum action is now "breaking the law"), but it is those who authorised and those who profit from the pipeline that need to be stopped and held accountable as a very first step, and it's the system that enabled them to get to where they are in the first place (millions of times richer than most people on the planet, and with the power and position to put things like pipelines wherever the fuck they want at the expense of the people and the planet) that needs to be abolished.

UnD3Rgr0uNDCL0wN OP ,

They’re not allowed to openly blame or question capitalism in these programs, sadly. Its under the journalistic “balance” policies the media have here.

And you’re right about green tech being exploited. Big Oil and co are so unkeen on us all having solar on our roof as we’d have a piece of the action. Most homes are also limited to 5kwh of export too here, and at something like 5p per kwh.

DessertStorms ,
@DessertStorms@kbin.social avatar

Oh yeah, I wasn't expecting much from ch4 but I guess I always keep a smidge of hope that someone might at least allude to it but no such luck, even on such an "extreme" programme (to most people), so I still get frustrated even though I should know better lol..

I just wish someone would give this country (and others) the shake it needs to wake up to this bullshit.. I was going to say I guess it isn't Packham, but who knows, maybe he'll radicalise a bit more off camera..

scarabic ,

Speaking of going on at length without ever coming to the point: what’s your alternative to capitalism?

Touching_Grass ,

I don’t get protesting for climate though. Isn’t it better to solicit and use lobbyist like the crooked government, big tobacco and energy industry uses.

I’ve never seen a tobacco executive standing in front of a truck yet they get their way all the time.

When do climate activists act like bugs bunny and start mirroring behavior that’s proven to work.

IntergalacticZombie ,

It takes a lot of money to bribe um… I mean lobby for change. By being disruptive you raise awareness and get media attention that makes the situation harder to ignore.

Touching_Grass ,

Isn’t it also expensive to protest. These organizations constantly need to solicit funds for this stuff. If climate is an issue that globally there is a huge support to solve. How hard would it really be to higher a couple lawyers, some marketeers, a couple quant phd and start targeting politicians.

You say its expensive but I know of individual families that do this type of thing to change laws because they own businesses locally that need laws changed.

Why is it that a climate protestor is standing in roads screaming while tobacco is at dinner with the people making the laws.

I know the FBI often infiltrated organizations back in the 70s and directed them how to behave so that they couldn’t grow and become bigger threats. They would get these groups to chase red herrings and look foolish burning energy on ineffective goals. That seems like its not talked about anymore. But when I see people throwing paint at works of art or fastening their own necks to industrial machinery while the blue collar every man labourer just trying to do his job has the controls, it reminds me of those stories from the 70s.

So how much money are we talking about? Because it seems like every industry except climate has their own

UnD3Rgr0uNDCL0wN OP ,

Trouble is you need a LOT of money to be effective at that. And I am talking £millions to bribe each MP/politician.

Touching_Grass , (edited )

Shouldn’t this be a problem that gets millions in funding. How many protestors are there willing to give up their time but not $5?

I don’t understand the refusal by climate protesters to play the game that everybody from my dentist to the big industrial players play.

How did climate protester’s get convinced that using the methods and tactics that work for every other industry should be avoided

Also, lobbying isn’t bribery. Lobbying is part of the Democratic process. Its keeping your issues in front of the politician. Its arguing for your cause. Often times there is a think tank that compiles information like polling data. Lawyers build laws. and other information favorable to your issue is all compiled and then the lobbyist brings it to the politician where they convince the politician that if they champion your issue then it would benefit them. They present compiled information to support their argument.

Not sure why climate activists are yelling at art instead of lobbying. Some lobbying is straight up bribery. But often its more like I described above. Its doing all the leg work and arguing why a politician needs to be on your side. Industry figured it out long ago. Why haven’t regular people

DessertStorms , (edited )
@DessertStorms@kbin.social avatar

You really don't seem to understand just how big the wealth disparity between the entirety of humanity and the wealthiest 100 or even 1000 people on the planet is.

Throwing what is essentially pocket change at those who serve the money hoarding monsters (our governments) is as useless as putting a band aid on a cancer, and not even a full finger sized one, but one of those dots, you know that you get for a shot.

Oh, and never even mind that lobbying absolutely is bribery, the fact that anyone actually sees it as a legitimate tool goes to show just how fucked we are.

Touching_Grass , (edited )

I would like know what you think lobbying is?

Can you explain the steps or walk me through how its always certainly bribery.

Gadg8eer ,
@Gadg8eer@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

These lemmies saved the world with this one weird tip! Big Oil HATES them!

But seriously, the above. Big Oil and corporate lobbyists in general don’t want you to know that lobbying can be done by the public, by making it so taboo that it makes good causes look bad if they lobby.

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