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TIL: Contrary to popular conception, non-monetary societies did not mainly rely on barter as a means of trade, but relied on gift economics and sometimes debt.

From wikipedia:

Contrary to popular conception, there is no evidence that societies relied only on barter before using money for trade.[73] Instead, non-monetary societies operated primarily along the principles of gift economics, and in more complex economies, on debt.[74][75][76] When barter occurred, it was usually between strangers or would-be enemies.[77]

monkeyman512 ,

Makes sense. In a small community everyone knows each other and can rely on trust/reputation to keep things fair.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

Back in the late 60s and early 70s the banks in Ireland went on strike to protest some laws. They thought that they’d cripple the economy and people would demand they reopen. Instead, people used cash for most transactions and if they needed to write a check they’d go down to the pub and the pub owner would vouch for their credit. The banks eventually gave up because their tantrum didn’t work.

Another example was when the British pulled out of Hong Kong. People who were paid with checks from a British bank would just endorse the check to someone else, who’d endorse it to someone else, who’d endorse it to someone else. The checks were rarely cashed, they just kept circulating.

dactylotheca ,
@dactylotheca@suppo.fi avatar

if they needed to write a check they’d go down to the pub and the pub owner would vouch for their credit

Well that was an unexpectedly hilarious turn

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

It’s Irish AF. They recently relaxed drunk driving laws because rural elderly were just sitting at home drinking, which is apparently less healthy than sitting in a pub drinking.

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

It is healthy to get out and socialize but I’m not sure elderly drunk driving is the answer

HobbitFoot ,

Yeah. If bartering occured, it was probably between peoples who didn’t have a connection with each other.

TootSweet ,

Yup. Capitalism is built on a foundation of lies.

The other thing I think may just be straight up a pro-capitalist-propaganda myth is “homesteading.” Honestly, do we have any evidence that that has ever happened in human history? It seems like every extample a Libertarian (with a capital “L”) might come up with is actually an example of theft of land. From either indigenous peoples or from pre-capitalist land owners.

atro_city ,

Money is just a representational tool for value. A service rendered might make you in-debted to the person and you will have to render a service in return to get out of it. No money is involved, but if a person rendered you a big service and you return the favor with a small service, it might make the other person less inclined to help you again in a big way.

The introduction of something that represents a value is a logical step when keeping track of debt. Be it salt, cows, labor or even money.

Gift economies are of course probably hotly debated topics. I'd love to see a multi-year experiment that allocates a large area to a group and lets them try out such an economy. I don't know how they will interface with the real world to get good (medicine, electricity, ...) or if it will just throw them back into the dark ages and they'll have to progress from there.

TootSweet ,

I’m not terribly sure what your response has to do with my comment in particular. I’m not sure why you responded to me and not the OP. I guess just because that first line of my comment agreed with OP?

Whatever the case, do you have a significant other? Kids? Parents? Is your relationship with any of them as transactional as what you’re describing?

“Happy 18th birthday, Jimmy. I wanted to let you know that the total cost for services rendered in the course of your raising comes to,” *hands Jimmy an invoice, “$227,261.63. Would you like to pay that in a lump sum or do you need to discuss a payment plan?”

It’s understandable if you’ve spent your whole life in capitalism to not really be able to think outside of that particular box, but I recommend looking into it. I can’t say I’m terribly well-read on the subject, but I think a book worth reading on the subject is Charles Eisenstein’s Sacred Economics (which is available to read for free online.) If you want something a little more hard-core, there’s Kropotkin’s “The Conquest of Bread”. Both of those will probably speak pretty well to the question of whether a gift economy can coexist with things like modern technology. (Spoiler: Those works definitely argue it can.)

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

If you want to learn a lot more about how economies worked in the past, I highly recommend the book “Debt: The First 5,000 Years” by David Graeber, author of “Bullshit Jobs.” It goes into this topic, and then presents a very detailed world history of economic systems from the perspective of an anthropologist.

TootSweet ,

I’ve been meaning to read that book for a long time but haven’t gotten around to it yet.

terraborra ,
@terraborra@lemmy.nz avatar

Came here to say exactly this.

If you want to dive even further into why the foundations of modern macroeconomics are bunk, then I can also recommend reading Debunking Economics by Steve Keen.

Atsur ,

Graeber’s work, as always, is truly incredible. Such a shame he died so young

Semi_Hemi_Demigod , (edited )
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

His last book, “Pirate Enlightenment, or the Real LIbertalia” is pretty good if you haven’t read it, if you don’t mind a lot of Malagasy names.

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