The German Rhineland-Palatinate State Parliament has ditched X (Twitter) in favour of open-source decentralised Mastodon

ComptitiveSubset , 10 months ago

This is great news. Algorithm optimized social networks are poison to society.

glacier , 10 months ago

If algorithms are are not the default option and are not designed to generate profit for platforms and advertisers, then perhaps they could be a healthy way to discover new content

10EXP , 10 months ago

Also Need to allow some level of user customisability.

Uranium3006 , 10 months ago

I'd run my own frontend aginst the API that ranks a large number of posts from the last 24 hours in terms of personal relevance

anlumo , 10 months ago

Such an algorithm has to run server-side, since it needs access to the full database of content.

It would be possible to allow users to upload their own algorithms (for example via Web Assembly), but I don’t know about any service that allows for that.

tsonfeir , 10 months ago

Wait, are we calling AI, “algorithms” again?

amki , 10 months ago

An algorithm suggesting things you might like doesn’t have to be AI. There are simple metrics to achieve that (e.g. things other people who liked this also liked)

Or are we calling every algorithm AI now?

regalia , 10 months ago

Bubble sort is now a sentient AI

tsonfeir , 10 months ago

If (trending) callitai();

ripcord , 10 months ago

People keep calling algorithms AI, so probably

tja , 10 months ago

Every social network uses algorithms to show you content. Even mastodon

ChaoticNeutralCzech , 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

At that point, you could say that almost all technology does. Even a 1950’s elevator with relay logic runs a (literally hard-wired) algorithm.

tsonfeir , 10 months ago

We call it AI in 2023 ;)

ChaoticNeutralCzech , 10 months ago

That’s nice but @tja doesn’t

csolisr , 10 months ago

Even if that algorithm is simply “sort by date” or “reposted by your followers”

Uranium3006 , 10 months ago

One algo there's a desperate need for on mastodon is "all the posts by a given user in chronological order but no boosts"

Draconic_NEO , 10 months ago

Very much agree, I want to find all their posts but without the boosts, it almost makes me not want to boost things because I worry that people aren’t going to be able to find my post if they want to reply to me.

anlumo , 10 months ago

The most expensive part is probably “not blocked by the user”, which X recently got rid of.

nous , 10 months ago

The Algorithm is such a nebulous term. All programs are algorithms, all it means is a set of unambitious instructions. I don’t think half the people that use it even really know what they mean by it except whatever big tech are doing.

I am kinda sad that the word has now been tainted this way and wish there was another word for a content recommender that’s only goal it to keep users on the platform for as long as possible so as much money as possible can be made from them.

UndefinedIsNotAFunction , 10 months ago

Shall we work on writing the algorithms to making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? That’s always a fun one to explain the concept.

topinambour_rex , 10 months ago

That would be a procedure

heeplr , 10 months ago

it’s not profit driven, tho.

Draconic_NEO , 10 months ago

It’s kind of frustrating because people who don’t understand programming or how the internet works are using algorithm to refer exclusively to the ones used by big tech, with machine learning based on user choices and whatever data they feed it to trick users into staying engaged longer.

Though algorithms are any program or sorting routine, however most people don’t understand this and they just think (even if they’re not willing to tell you) that algorithm just means magic or something like that because they’re imagining the machine learning ones they don’t understand that the simple algorithms like sorting by new or most popular are still algorithms.

Corgana , 10 months ago

Yeeaaah but you know what he meant. There’s algorithms and then there’s “The Algorithm” in common parlance. IMO it’s the obsession on precision in language that makes otherwise excellent FOSS programmers into terrible proselytizers of FOSS services.

When someone complains about “the algorithm” on Twitter, the correct thing to say is “You should try Mastodon it doesn’t do that” not “Technically all sorting is algorithmic but the sorting on Mastodon is less opaque and more verifiable than that which is commonly employed by Meta Systems Incorporated.”

turkalino , 10 months ago

I mean I know this is painfully pedantic but even simply sorting by new is algorithmic

ChaoticNeutralCzech , 10 months ago

So is anything a programmable computer does.

amki , 10 months ago

The implied difference is if someone or even you know how the algorithm works, which for “new” is relatively straightforward.

drcobaltjedi , 10 months ago

Yeah

SELECT TOP(100) * FROM POSTS ORDER BY DATEPOSTED

Is a relatively straight forward command to a database and hell, I’m guessing extremely readable by your average Joe.

anlumo , 10 months ago

If you’re talking SQL, it would be SELECT * FROM posts ORDER BY dateposted LIMIT 100.

drcobaltjedi , 10 months ago

There are a lot of flavors of SQL each with their own syntax. I’ve been using Microsoft’s SQL now for 3 years and the syntax I used is correct for that.

Draconic_NEO , 10 months ago

When people say algorithms on social media they usually never refer to the simple everyday algorithms that are easy to understand, they always use that word to refer to the proprietary ones designed to feed you content based on machine learning and data fed to them by the company.

Though yes sorting by new, or activity, or even by vote count is still in algorithm, just a much simpler one that almost never employs machine learning.

Corgana , 10 months ago

Yeah exactly, most people understand to some degree that they are being manipulated by ““The Algorithm”” and would like an alternative service. Responding to that sentiment with “actually all sorting is technically algorithmic” is not the way to make a new Mastodon convert.

turkalino , 10 months ago

I’m aware. my comment was more for the folks who don’t know that an algorithm is simply a set of steps to achieve something specific

regalia , 10 months ago

You say from Lemmy which is algorithm based.

shrugal , 10 months ago

I think “algorithm” refers to personalized sorting and recommendations in this case, so using your data to prioritize posts that keep you on the site. That’s not what any of the Fediverse apps are doing.

regalia , 10 months ago

Nothing wrong with that. The Masotodon server can pool the popular/trending posts and push them to your feed if it’s relevant, aka if you follow accounts that follow, or follow a hashtag. It already has to access your information to have the feed work at all obviously, personality just means it makes more complicated decisions from the information is already has.

shrugal , 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

The key difference is whether it does what I told it to do (e.g. gather popular posts with tags I follow) or if it uses my usage data to figure out what would keep me engaged. The former is perfectly fine imo, the latter can become manipulative very quickly.

regalia , 10 months ago

Well then ask yourself who’s doing the manipulation? The instance owner? The open source devs who make the engagement algo?

The open source devs are going to be in line with keeping it transparent and healthy while still keeping it entertaining, so there’s already checks and balances right there to prevent it becoming an issue. There is no venture capitalists to corrupt it either, so there’s no incentive to make it malicious and the community gets to tweak it to make it balanced. That also means anyone can check to see how it works. Also they can add options for the user to tweak it.

If you don’t like it, then the current option of new posts/boosts in order will always be enabled, so this would be a completely optional separate feed and not affect you if you don’t like it. No need to police others and decide they don’t deserve to have this implemented as an optional sort, and it’s not replacing your current feed.

If a instance somehow maliciously manipulates the algo, then that’s the beauty of decentralization right there, you’re free to swap. The problem with other social media algos is they’re corrupted by venture capitalist and they’re centralized so you have no say in how it works. Both these issues don’t apply to Mastodon.

Draconic_NEO , 10 months ago

Interesting idea I had, maybe there might be some merit in allowing experienced users to build their own engagement algorithms for their personal profiles. They could also share their code with others who might want to use it. In that situation nobody’s creating any manipulative algorithms, they’re just doing it for themselves or for each other. They can also tweak it individually to their preferences. Of course since it would definitely require experience it’s more a nice optional thing to have, not a necessity.

shrugal , 10 months ago

I’m not strictly against personalized recommendations (hence why I said it “can” become manipulative), and you’re making some good points. But I do think it’s a very dangerous game to be playing.

It almost certainly requires collecting and storing very personal usage data, and it can influence people’s mood and behaviour depending on what the algorithm is optimizing for (e.g. showing you stuff that makes you angry or ashamed). For that reason I think it’s not just a matter of letting it loose on people. It needs to be very well communicated and explained (e.g. things like “we are showing you this because …”), so people stay in control of their own actions.

Imo it’s a bit like slot machines. Just fine for most people most of the time, but it can drag you down a dark path if you’re vulnerable for whatever reason.