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nyan ,

We need more examples?

Seriously, though, there are options in between keeping copyright as it is and removing it altogether. Shortening the term is one. Mandatory mechanical licensing is another (that is, allowing people to make copies for a fee set by the government or a nonpartisan board without requiring permission from the copyright owner, who does, however, receive the fee—the trick is setting the fee at a level that makes it reasonable for the average person making a single copy, but still high enough to make it unattractive for corporations churning out millions of them). We also need to overhaul how derivative works are handled, and some aspects of trademark law.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Another option is to not allow copying of digital copyrighted works, but do allow resale/gifting and require storefronts to offer something like that. I can do that with physical goods, and that’s most of the reason I’d want to copy a copyrighted work (e.g. to send to a friend).

I think trademark law is generally fine as-is, but patent and copyright law are atrocious. My proposal:

  • cut copyright to the original 14 year term (or perhaps 10), and allow a one-time renewal if you can prove financial hardship (e.g. small creators who didn’t get traction with their product)
  • cut patents to 7 years, and allow a one-time renewal of 5 years when going to market (so max 12 years if it takes 7 years to bring a product to market); maybe an exception if the product is stuck with regulators
  • don’t require lawsuits to keep trademark, only require filing of a potential violation with the trademark office; you can sue, but that shouldn’t be necessary to “defend” your trademark
HexesofVexes ,

Well, I guess we’ll never see any developments in mathematics or theoretical physics. No copyright there except journals paywalling our work and paying us absolutely nothing. Oh wait…

We live in an era of copyblight - it’s an era we won’t leave until the caveman mentality of “this mine, no touch or I hurt” fizzles out. Give it another 5000 or so years maybe?

Aqarius ,

It’s just th enclosure continuing in the non-physical space.

technocrit ,

Don’t the forget the extortionate textbooks gatekeeping who can understand the extortionate journals.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

The thing that will bring down the copywrite system will be countries without copywrite making enforcement impossible.

Buffalox ,

Well I for one have never heard about anybody doing anything creative without being paid for it.
/s

rottingleaf ,

Any monopoly incentive does, it’s the same in developing countries with monopolized industries - people need them, so they keep paying, people don’t have choice, so they don’t leave, and no competition arises because of cronyism.

Thus, say, utility companies in Armenia are such crap. Actually any companies in Armenia, it’s thoroughly oligopolized to the degree that locals think it’s all fine, because it’s all the same. Living in Armenia is as expensive as living near Moscow, while wages, eh, are definitely not the same. What I don’t understand is the locals’ stubborn belief that they can make things better without changing the society where oligopolies, things working via acquaintances, theft being socially acceptable, bendable rules and no responsibility are usual ; I suspect envy for people explaining why they can’t is a reason too.

Why did I type this …

14th_cylon , (edited )

Another concerns equity and accessibility:

removal of more than 500,000 books from public access is a serious blow to lower-income families, people with disabilities, rural communities, and LGBTQ+ people, among many others.

so low-income people in the argument are pretty obvious

how about people with disabilities or rural communities? why are they there? do they have easier access to libraries than bookstore?

and what the hell are lgbt people doing there? do they read disproportionately more more than average non-lgbt population, or why are they singled out?

seems like this whole paragraph is just “lets throw in some minorities, no one can talk back at that” lame argument

xanu ,

Libraries are safe spaces for minorities and the LGBTQ+ community. Books in general spread awareness and raise empathy and can also help struggling young people understand that they are not alone.

That quote isn’t saying people of these communities read or use a public library more than those who aren’t; it’s pointing out that the erasure of public safe spaces and resources affects groups that benefit from their existence more.

All of that doesn’t even mention the content that was likely present in those 500,000 books.

14th_cylon ,

Libraries are safe spaces for minorities

this text was primarily about digital archives, so i don’t think this applies much

can also help struggling young people understand that they are not alone.

this does make sense, ok then.

pastermil ,

The argument centers around the equality of access, which is especially relevant in the digital age. Rural & disabled population may have problem accessing content with certain restrictions (e.g. need physical access, lack of accessibility features, only available in some region).

14th_cylon ,

fair point, i seem to have conveniently ignored that i was talking about digital, not physical, archive here…

Silentiea , (edited )
@Silentiea@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

rural communities

Online lending allows people in remote or rural places much more economical access to more titles than otherwise, even if they have access to a decent local library

14th_cylon ,

oh right, i totally ignored the “digital” part, even though i mentioned that in nearby reply. my bad.

tonytins ,
@tonytins@pawb.social avatar

The notion that every person has to somehow protect their works for all of their life and beyond the grave is obviously dumb and purely favors corporations at the cost of pitting artists against themselves and fans.

mox ,

Let’s not forget that copyright enforcement is mostly funded by taxpayers. It’s a collectively massive cost to the rest of us.

It probably made sense for a limited time when we (society) were getting something of comparable value (cultural works) in return. But now that it’s effectively endless, and dominated by corporations, it looks an awful lot like systematic extraction of wealth… from us.

FiniteBanjo ,

As an artist, I like having the ability to tell people they cannot host my commercial works, cannot claim my own writing or characters for themselves, cannot reproduce them for profit, need my permission to sell them.

I think copyright abuse is rampant and favors corporate entities far too much in most countries, but I think the solution is reform not destruction of the system.

psychothumbs OP ,

I’m more open to burning the whole edifice of copyright law down than you are, but the key reform that I want that maybe we could agree on is that it should be legal to distribute coprighted works for free. No need to to let someone else try to make a profit by undercutting your sales, but if someone is willing to make and distribute copies (or ecopies) of a work to no profit for themselves they should be allowed to. What that would mean in practice if it was legal would be an online content library containing all human art and culture, freely available for download to all comers. It might hurt the income of some creators, but you’d still have a lot of other ways to make money that don’t entail depriving people of that library.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

You can have that library today (see: Project Gutenberg), just on a delay. The problem, IMO, is that the delay is much too long. If copyright only lasted 10 years, it would be much more useful as a store of human knowledge. We could even allow an application for a longer term for smaller creators who need more time to monetize their works.

That’s pretty close to how it used to work in the US, it has just been twisted by large orgs like Disney and the RIAA.

psychothumbs OP ,

Yeah Project Gutenberg really demonstrates how this is all pretty much already built, just illegal to include recent works in. Though of course that’s just books where the post copyright free library could also include all other art and culture such as tv, radio, movies, images, games, etc

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Sure, and there’s no reason it can’t include other art and culture, like TV shows, radio programs, etc. The main issue is the length of time before those become legal to redistribute. It sucks that only movies made in the early 1900s are legal to redistribute, when the most culturally relevant works are still 50+ years away from entering the public domain.

So we should be looking at shortening that time, trying to end copyright entirely isn’t going to happen.

psychothumbs OP ,

Shortening the time is good, and adjusting it while it still does apply to allow for more legal free sharing of the work.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

The problem is that copyright owners are concerned about losing sales, they care much less whether you’re making a profit on that lost sale.

One thing I think we should do is require stores to allow transfer of copyright. So if I buy a game or movie, I should be able to give that game or movie to someone else. I would no longer have access to it, so it would be like giving a physical disk or whatever.

FiniteBanjo , (edited )

Alright but Archiving is already an exception to most laws (clearly not well enforced seeing what happened to the IA) and your proposal would harm new artists who need to share their works in order to gain publicity for something they intend to sell and sustain themselves on.

psychothumbs OP ,

“your proposal would harm young artists who need to share their works in order to gain publicity for something they intend to sell and sustain themselves on.”

The default is already for young artists to share a lot of their work hoping to get noticed. Getting rid of copyright would be reorienting the whole system to center that experience more rather than the established artists and art producing corporations who now are in a strong enough position to charge. “Making it” would just mean that your patreon was doing gangbusters rather than selling a lot of copies of whatever your art is.

FiniteBanjo ,

No, it would empower anybody, especially corporations, to take the new artists’ ideas and work and repackage them as an item for sale to others. Anything you share would not be covered by copyright and therefor no longer be your property.

Individuals cannot compete with organizations.

psychothumbs OP ,

If you are already sharing something for free in order to gain publicity, what is the downside of others repackaging them and spreading them further? That is exactly the kind of publicity you’re trying to gain.

FiniteBanjo ,

But you’re not profiting off of it. The corporation is. They have no incentive to give you credit, every incentive to claim that they made it which they would of course be allowed to do. They could even start making their own derivative pieces or continuations. The artist has gained nothing from this hypothetical.

psychothumbs OP ,

Eliminating copyright doesn’t mean they’d be allowed to lie about who wrote what they were publishing. Anything an artist creates blowing up and gaining wide appreciation is very good for that artist’s future prospects. An artist who is spreading their work for free anyway is much better off in the scenario where there’s no copyright and everyone understands the need to tip / patronize their favorite artists.

FiniteBanjo , (edited )

Eliminating copyright doesn’t mean they’d be allowed to lie about who wrote what they were publishing.

That is literally what Copyright is. Removing it means exactly that.

psychothumbs OP ,

No copyright is about the “right” to “copy” the work in question, not the attribution. Works that are in the public domain still list the author.

conciselyverbose ,

IA didn’t get sued for archiving. They got sued for mass redistribution.

FiniteBanjo ,

Pretty sure that’s a basic function of a publicly operated archive, but for sure there was a lot of nuance.

conciselyverbose ,

That’s the point, though. The law is very clear that mass distributing wholesale copyrighted works isn’t fair use. Digitizing it was the part justified by fair use “archival”. Distribution isn’t.

You have to start over and throw out the old laws. Right now there’s no framework to own a file at all (outside of actually holding the copyright). It’s always a license.

FiniteBanjo ,

Throwing them out and restarting is a lot harder than restarting without throwing them out.

conciselyverbose ,

The core concept of ownership and copying needs to change if you want anything resembling what IA did to be protected. Because the underlying premise behind copyright legislation that that any unauthorized copy needs a specific exception to be legal, and it’s impossible to use digital files without numerous copies.

That’s starting from scratch.

FiniteBanjo ,

Okay but you can literally just overwrite laws without making a period inbetween where anything and everything is allowed. That’s fucking stupid.

conciselyverbose ,

Where did anyone say anything that resembles “make a free for all in between” in any way?

The core concepts of current laws are completely incompatible with any form of actual ownership in a digital world. You need to write new laws that start from the ground up with concepts that work.

FiniteBanjo ,

You have to start over and throw out the old laws.

You, then.

conciselyverbose ,

You should work on your reading comprehension.

FiniteBanjo ,

You should work on your shit ideology and core values, or if you meant something other than what you explicitly said then you should work on your English writing capability.

conciselyverbose ,

Your inability to read a straightforward sentence is not my issue.

FiniteBanjo ,

You have to start over and throw out the old laws.

VirtualOdour ,

You love capitalism. We get it.

FiniteBanjo ,

Not liking Anarchy isn’t remotely the same as loving capitalism.

Grandwolf319 ,

As in no copyright=anarchy?

FiniteBanjo ,

As much as Copyright=Capitalism, yeah.

Anarchy by definition is:

  1. Absence of any form of political authority.
  2. Political disorder and confusion.
  3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.

Literally what that word has meant for generations, etymology stemming from middle French “Anarchie” in 16th century.

Grandwolf319 ,

Oh as in you mean no copyright makes things more like an anarchy instead of becoming 100% anarchy. I see what you mean now.

rottingleaf ,

cannot claim my own writing or characters for themselves

If by “claim” you mean falsify authorship, I suspect this would still be illegal even without all the copyright laws.

I like having the ability to tell people … cannot reproduce them

Well, this is a problem.

FiniteBanjo ,

If by “claim” you mean falsify authorship, I suspect this would still be illegal even without all the copyright laws.

You would be wrong, in the USA at least.

rottingleaf ,

OK, well, that certainly should be illegal.

Doomsider ,

Do you like suing people in a court of law to enforce these rights?

What if in a world of billions of people someone makes stories or characters similar to yours. Should you sue them? What if they sue you and have better lawyers and more money. Are you prepared to go to court?

I think you are experiencing a sunken cost fallacy. Unless you have the time and money to enforce copyright then it will never work for you, only against you.

FiniteBanjo ,

I like having the options to sue in a court of law to enforce these rights a lot more than not having rights at all.

Doomsider ,

Keep saying that when a big corporation takes your work for theirs and then sues you.

We have already past the tipping point where content creators are now paying more for their work to be heard then getting paid for their work.

Corporations are controlling our very culture with the framework that makes you feel like you have rights. There is a major disconnect here.

FiniteBanjo ,

Lmao

Doomsider ,

The average cost of litigating a federal copyright case from pre-trial through appeals is $278,000. But sure, keep pretending you could play with the big boys.

FiniteBanjo ,

With a good case a lot of lawyers would be willing to work pro bono, especially when it’s an individual infringed by a corporation who have plenty to take from.

For example, the script for the movie The Purge was stolen from an individual in 2012, and after 4 years of litigation Universal paid out a massive settlement in 2018 and also ended the series despite its success.

Doomsider ,

A lot of lawyers would be willing to work pro bono on a IP case? You have no way to pay for your rights then. Sounds like a system that is going to work well for you.

Reforming a bad idea does not make it a good idea. Until you can come to terms with just how imbalanced the system is then you probably don’t know what is really going on.

FiniteBanjo ,

It’s imbalanced, I never said otherwise, but not having it would suck more.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

We have already past the tipping point where content creators are now paying more for their work to be heard then getting paid for their work.

The gatekeeping of modern social media plus the data harvesting of LLM is strangling independent ownership, without a doubt.

It’s a shame folks on Lemmy can’t see it. But then Reddit is the Ur-example of big business robbing people of their work product.

LodeMike ,

This title is actually false under some logical fallacy. It should be “Yet more examples of copyright destroying culture rather than driving it.”

FiniteBanjo ,

No, because OP clearly believes all copyright is bad while your corrected title would be at least some/most copyright has proven to be bad.

LodeMike ,

Eh. Belief doesn’t really override logical fallacies. I know. In being pendantic, but I hate misleading headlines, especially when its a statistic.

If it’s a beleif the author should state that.

FiniteBanjo ,

You can say they’re incorrect, but you cannot correct their intentions. Only they can do that.

conciselyverbose ,

There is no logical fallacy.

It also is not a statistic. 🤷🏼‍♀️

themurphy ,

As a non English speaker, I can’t tell the difference. Might be the same for OP.

lvxferre ,

In English, the simple present often implies a general truth, regardless of time. While the present continuous strongly implies that the statement is true for the present, and weakly implies that it was false in the past.

From your profile you apparently speak Danish, right? Note that, in Danish, this distinction is mostly handled through adverbs, so I’m not surprised that you can’t tell the difference. Easier shown with an example:

Danish English
Jeg læser ofte. I read often. (generally true statement)
Jeg læser lige nu. I’m reading right now. (true in the present)

Note how English is suddenly using a different verb form for the second one.

themurphy ,

That is a great explanation, thanks! I understand the difference now.

conciselyverbose ,

The title isn’t a mistake.

It’s openly stating that they believe that to be an inherent feature of at least our current legislation.

lvxferre ,

I don’t think that the title is a mistake either; I was focusing solely on what the title says, on a language level, versus what the other user (Kairos) believes to be more accurate.

With that out of the way: yup, copyright was always like this. The basic premise of copyright is to not allow you to share things under certain conditions, and yet this sharing is essential for culture.

lvxferre ,

On itself, a simple claim (like “copyright destroys culture”) cannot be fallacious. It can be only true or false. For a fallacy, you need a reasoning flaw.

Also note that, even if you find a fallacy behind a conclusion, that is not enough grounds to claim that the conclusion is false. A non-fallacious argument with true premises yields a true conclusion, but a fallacious one may yield true or false conclusions.

The issue that you’re noticing with the title is not one of logic, but one of implicature due to the aspect of the verb. “X destroys Y” implies that, every time that X happens, Y gets destroyed; while “X [is] destroying Y” implies that this is only happening now.

HexesofVexes ,

Exists culture Exists copyright s.t. copyright ‘destroys’ culture and not copyright ‘drives’ culture.

I mean, you’re putting an implied universal where the author is only offering existential. That one is on you!

“Copyright always destroys culture” would have the universal quantifier you object to.

Of course, both of these results are formally undecided, mostly because ‘drives’ is not well defined nor decidable in itself!

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