There have been multiple accounts created with the sole purpose of posting advertisement posts or replies containing unsolicited advertising.

Accounts which solely post advertisements, or persistently post them may be terminated.

Can someone define "liberal" (in its use as an insult) for me?

For the longest time, “liberal” seemed like it basically just meant “Democrat” the same way “conservative” has/had been used to mean “Republican.” Now, it seems like it means “bad Democrat” and is even worse than being MAGA the way many seem to use it. Where did its use as an insult within the [relative] political left come from, and what does it specifically accuse/identify someone of/as?

JimSamtanko ,

Using liberal as a derogatory says far more about the person saying it, than it does about those they say it about.

My advice is to not take them seriously.

DarkThoughts ,

The epitome of Shit Americans Say.

MyDogLovesMe ,

Basically it says to me “Fuck your for being/showing/reminding me that you are smarter/more informed/more reasoned/more compassionate than me!”

Same applies to “woke”.

It’s how it’s said that speaks volumes.

kersploosh ,
@kersploosh@sh.itjust.works avatar

I think others have answered your question better than me, but I’ll chip in my two cents anyway.

The definition depends on who is saying it.

Within mainstream US politics, Republicans use “liberal” as a catch-all pejorative for any person or group further to the left of themselves. It is usually aimed at Democrats but could also refer to Greens, communists, etc.

The irony is that, in a broader political context, Republicans are very much liberals, too. People outside the US political mainstream who sneer about “liberals” are usually referring to this larger group, which basically encompasses the capitalist status quo in the “western” world.

Cuberoot ,

Phil Ochs says it better than I can:

In every American community there are varying shades of political opinion. One of the shadiest of these is the liberals. An outspoken group on many subjects, ten degrees to the left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally.

The issues have changed slightly from the 1960s, but his song’s accusations of hypocrisy and NIMBYism among those who publicly espouse progressive causes still hit close enough to home.

cabbage ,
@cabbage@piefed.social avatar

I think a big part of the problem is that liberalism dates back to the 17th century, and western civilisation is kind of built on top of it.

As a result it could fit pretty much anywhere on the political spectrum. I consider myself pretty leftist, but of course I'm a fucking liberal. I take issue with inheritance and I believe in taxing billionaires out of existence, but that's completely consistent with liberalism. And so is disagreeing with me.

I guess a central thing about liberalism is refusing patriarchalism, which would explain why the stalinists and the trumpists alike get upset by it.

Hereforpron2 OP ,

Ahh that’s interesting, so the issue is as much having a conveniently shifting position as it is a further-right-than-progressives static position. Thanks a ton, that helps me understand a lot!

Archelon ,

Basically liberalism tends to be capitalist, whereas leftism tends to be anticapitalist. Historically, there’s been a pattern of centrists and capitalist allying with authoritarians and fascists against leftists, so the insult boils down to “you’d support a fascist before you went against capitalism”

aasatru ,
@aasatru@kbin.earth avatar

A brief rough history, in case anyone is interested:

17th century: Kings and shit. The people supporting the rule of the king are in power. They become conservatives.

18th century: Liberals appear. They believe men have certain inherent rights from nature. They don't dig kings, but they do believe in private property. They sit to the left in parliaments, the conservatives sit to the right.

19th century: Marx gives us his take on history and labour. Liberalism is given a competing framework from the left.

20th century: All kinds of shit goes down, partly because the conservatives and the liberals are terrified of the Marxists and give the fascists the keys to the kingdom, partly because of a Marx-inspired Leninists take control in Russia. The "new" left (socialism) becomes a major force in the postwar era, promising to build a new world on the ashes of the old.

21st century: There seems to be a head on collision. People feel strongly about these concepts, but it seems many have forgotten where they come from or what they mean. Disinformation campaigns have gotten efficient. Green politics enter the field.

theilleists ,

Love Me, I’m a Liberal

Inspired by Phil Ochs, updated for 2023.

Rhynoplaz ,

There are a lot of solid answers, but it’s good to remember that the US definition of a liberal, seems to be very different from the international definition. So, remember to keep context in mind, and whether it’s coming from an American or not.

cabbage ,
@cabbage@piefed.social avatar

As a non-American with political science training, I think this is key to why I have found this particularly baffling.

It's like if you were having a casual conversation about pretty much anything and some overgrown child suddenly jumps in and starts screaming you're a filthy deontologist. Like, uhm, sure, but I'm not sure how that's relevant, and I also somehow doubt you know what that word means.

Nemo ,

Deontology is bankrupt as an ethical philosophy tho

cabbage ,
@cabbage@piefed.social avatar

Haha, yeah - the deonthology hating child in my example came across as a little more reasonable than I perhaps wanted it to.

That said, I'm kind of a fan, even though I agree it's morally bankrupt. Most of my moral thinking revolves around making up excuses for Kant.

TachyonTele , (edited )

I was told by hexbear that it means anyone in the west.

lemm.ee/post/36143498/12997749

cabbage ,
@cabbage@piefed.social avatar

I mean... yeah, probably. John Locke is influential as fuck.

satanmat ,

In the USA. As others in the thread have said…

It is meant to ”other” — “You” are a good person, loves your Mama; loves Jesus and America too… ( miss you Tom Petty)

But “they” are other… those dang coastal elites they are latte sipping LIBERALS and hate everything about you.

It identifies them as wanting to take everything away from you. They don’t love Jesus , not the way you do. They want EVs forced on everyone. Etc

ShepherdPie ,

It’s an insult in the US because the liberals in the Democratic party are considered to be on the right side of the political spectrum. Today’s liberals are seen as pushing the same stuff Republicans were pushing in the era of Reagan and Bush. Progressives in the party don’t really get much of a voice therefore they disparage the liberals that keep pushing the Overton window further and further right.

cabbage ,
@cabbage@piefed.social avatar

Genuinely useful. I keep getting called a liberal online as a slur whenever I discuss politics, mostly by the accounts of people who could very well have been on a Russian payroll but are probably just deranged.

I was wondering what the fuck they were on about.

GBU_28 ,

Those types are fun. If pressed on LGBTQ issues, you’ll see the “progressive” front start to crack

LibertyLizard ,

This is really just factually inaccurate though. Modern US liberals are actually further to the left than they were during the bush era, and are nowhere near as far right as the bush administration. (not sure about Reagan because that was before my time but I suspect it was similar). Democrats during that era were just coming off of the very centrist Clinton administration, and have gradually been moving left ever since.

The difference is the people criticizing liberals have become much more numerous and moved much further to the left than core democrats. Which is largely a good thing but I think it would help them be more strategic if they actually understood these things clearly.

Hereforpron2 OP ,

Gotcha, so it means fake leftists almost? Does it imply someone is even further right than a current “centrist”? Or more like, “the center is right wing at this point, and so much so that even the Dems who are just left of center are still on the right [but therefore less than centrists still]”? This is not meant to be obstinate, your response was just very helpful and I want to bracket in on where folks consider liberals to be on the political spectrum so I can understand/use it properly.

ShepherdPie ,

You might look up the term “neoliberalism” as I think there is a lot of overlap with the information you’re seeking and those who would be called liberal perjoratively.

Nemo ,

Neoliberalism is itself a postliberal framework that rejects many central tenets of classical liberalism.

ArbitraryValue ,

Why liberalism and leftism are increasingly at odds, written by a liberal. (Note that by “SJL” he means modern American “social justice leftism” as opposed to earlier leftist movements more focused on economic class.)

SJLs and liberals have some interests in common. Both are “culturally liberal” on questions like abortion and gay marriage. And both disdain Donald Trump and the modern, MAGA-fied version of the Republican Party. But I’d suggest we’ve reached a point where they disagree in at least as many ways as they agree. Here are a few dimensions of conflict:

SJL’s focus on group identity contrasts sharply with liberalism’s individualism.

SJL, like other critical theories that emerged from the Marxist tradition, tends to be totalizing. The whole idea of systemic racism, for instance, is that the entire system is rigged to oppress nonwhite people. Liberalism is less totalizing. This is in part because it is the entrenched status quo and so often is well-served by incremental changes. But it’s also because liberalism’s focus on democracy makes it intrinsically pluralistic.

SJL, with its academic roots, often makes appeals to authority and expertise as opposed to entrusting individuals to make their own decisions and take their own risks. This is a complicated axis of conflict because there are certainly technocratic strains of liberalism, whereas like Hayek I tend to see experts and central planners as error-prone and instead prefer more decentralized mechanisms (e.g. markets, votes, revealed preferences) for making decisions.

Finally, SJL has a radically more constrained view on free speech than liberalism, for which free speech is a sacred principle. The SJL intolerance for speech that could be harmful, hateful or which could spread “misinformation” has gained traction, however. It is the predominant view among college students and it is becoming more popular in certain corners of the media and even among many mainstream Democrats.

As a self-idenitied liberal, I think this is about right. He also talks about how and why the conflict in the Middle East has caused the recent increase in hostility but I’m not going to quote the whole article.

LibertyLizard ,

I respect Nate Silver’s analysis when it comes to polling but I don’t think his divisions of the modern left make a lot of sense. Frankly, I think the left wing is way too fractured to make these types of generalizations about. He’s accurately describing at least some people on the left. But what proportion of the progressive/far left coalition does this actually apply to? To me it seems to be just one faction among several.

Perhaps I am biased because I don’t really fit into the categories he has outlined, nor do most people I know. But it seems like a huge oversimplification (and a mildly demeaning one at that).

ArbitraryValue , (edited )

Silver’s descriptions of what I think and of what the people who disagree with me appear to be thinking seem correct to me, but of course I know myself better that I know people who disagree with me. I think it would be interesting to have a leftist post about the division from his side’s point of view.

I think that the idea of “liberal” as an insult is driven by the conflict between these two factions, but I’m not claiming that they are the entirety of the Democratic party. There are others, such as organized labor and religious socially conservative black people, who nonetheless reliably vote for the Democrats. I’m curious about what group you would say that you belong to.

Hereforpron2 OP ,

Very helpful, thank you!

BackOnMyBS ,
@BackOnMyBS@lemmy.autism.place avatar

I’m not really into this stuff, but from what I can tell, liberal became an insult purely because conservatives wanted to label liberals as inferior. That’s about it. Some leftists also use liberal as an insult, though to a lesser extreme.

How conservatives use it, liberal means someone that is too sensitive, accommodating, weak, and evil (especially in Christian terms).

How leftists use it, liberal means uneducated, hypocritical, insufficient, and turncoat/traitor.

cabbage ,
@cabbage@piefed.social avatar

So when self-proclaimed leftists use as a slur it's not even in relation to support for private property rights?

I guess, if you're a proper communist, you could use liberal as a category of leftists who don't want to abolish property rights. As for the far right crowd, it could be a slur for anyone who doesn't want to abolish all other rights.

db2 ,

It means “anyone who doesn’t immediately agree with anything I say/repeat” in magaspeak.

ArbitraryValue ,

I think OP’s question is about why parts of the Democratic coalition are hostile to other parts of the Democratic coalition, not about why Republicans are hostile to Democrats.

cabbage ,
@cabbage@piefed.social avatar

If a self-proclaimed "part of the Democratic coalition" is dismissing whatever arguments you make by weirdly comparing you to John Locke as a slur, chances are they are they are not, in fact, part of the Democratic coalition. The fact that they are borrowing their slurs from the conventional fascists should be telling enough.

They might even share employer.

ArbitraryValue , (edited )

I think that even the people who are just as bad as you say are also part of the Democratic coalition simply because both they and I will be voting for Kamala Harris in November, although they will be doing it while complaining a lot. I’ll be complaining a little because I’m never going to support any candidate 100% but my ideal candidate would still be a centrist Democrat.

With that said, I’m not sure how long this coalition will hold together because I would rather vote for a centrist Republican than for a leftist. Right now the Republican party is the one dominated by its extremists but if they return towards the center (Trump won’t live forever) and the Democrats shift left, a lot of liberals will be reconsidering their political alliances.

cabbage ,
@cabbage@piefed.social avatar

I have seen people argue that they will never vote for Harris, because she's just part of the same rotten establishment etc etc. Mostly from the same people who use liberal as a slur. They seem to be very loud around here.

I might be ignorant though. Have anyone established/respected in the circles around Sanders/the Squad used the term "liberal" in a similar sense? Or is it mostly by faceless folks online?

JimSamtanko ,

Those people were never voting for any democrat. Regardless of who was chosen.

Ziggurat ,

Right winger who support economic liberalism. Indeed, on Lemmy it’s seen like an insult

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • [email protected]
  • random
  • lifeLocal
  • goranko
  • All magazines
    •