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muntedcrocodile ,
@muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee avatar

They never had free speach to begin with. Insert line about they came fkr the Syd I did not speak for I was snot xyz line. Welp now there is nobody left ot defend ur free speach what a shame.

Hexbatch ,

The only thing that can stop an absolute mess on campuses is a cease fire that allows in food and medicine .

These rules are from hopeful admins this week

ArbitraryValue , (edited )

Elsewhere on Lemmy I have been pilloried for being a free-speech absolutist, but I don’t think that most of these restrictions impede the free exchange of ideas (as opposed to deliberate disruption, which is not speech).

The University of Pennsylvania has outlined new “temporary guidelines” for student protests that include bans on encampments, overnight demonstrations, and the use of bullhorns and speakers until after 5 p.m. on class days. Penn also requires that posters and banners be removed within two weeks of going up. The university says it remains committed to freedom of speech and lawful assembly.

This seems entirely reasonable.

At Indiana University, protests after 11 p.m. are forbidden under a new “expressive activities policy” that took effect Aug 1. The policy says “camping” and erecting any type of shelter are prohibited on campus, and signs cannot be displayed on university property without prior approval.

This seems reasonable too. Note that the rule about signs applies only to attaching them to publicly-accessible university property. People are free to carry signs or display them in their dorms and on-campus offices.

The University of South Florida now requires approval for tents, canopies, banners, signs and amplifiers. The school’s “speech, expression and assembly” rules stipulate that no “activity,” including protests or demonstrations, is allowed after 5 p.m. on weekdays or during weekends and not allowed at all during the last two weeks of a semester.

I do disagree with this one. Allowing protests only on weekdays before 5:00 PM is not reasonable.

pearsaltchocolatebar ,

Protests don’t really work if they’re not disruptive.

ArbitraryValue ,

The right to a free exchange of ideas includes the right to disagree with protestors without being harmed.

Kalkaline ,
@Kalkaline@leminal.space avatar

You say this but if I saw someone punch a Nazi, I would cheer and forget who it was if asked by the police.

ArbitraryValue ,

I believe that you would, but it would make you an enemy of free speech. Either a society allows the expression of ideas widely perceived as harmful, or it only permits people to express those ideas which the powers that be approve of. Throughout history, the powers that be always claimed that they were suppressing just the harmful ideas, and they were almost always lying. I don’t trust them with that authority.

HenchmanNumber3 ,

That’s a false dilemma. There’s a middle ground between allowing only approved speech and allowing any speech whatsoever. And we already make that distinction. Fascists don’t believe in free speech and threaten the rights of others through threats of violence, which isn’t protected speech. Likewise fraud, libel, slander, blackmail, false advertising, and CSAM aren’t protected and are considered harmful.

ArbitraryValue , (edited )

There’s a difference between expressing an idea and making a speech act. Harmful speech acts, including “true threats” in the legal sense (e.g. credible threats of imminent harm, as opposed to expressions of support for policies that would be harmful) and all the other things that you mention* may be regulated without impinging on the free exchange of ideas (although one must watch out for attempts to suppress ideas by claiming that they’re speech acts).

I’m not talking about a mob of fascists threatening to attack someone there and then (illegal) or actually attacking (illegal, and cause for justified violence in self-defense). I’m talking about a peaceful march of fascists carrying signs expressing support for national socialism. They get to march.

*I do find it odd that simply possessing images of children being raped is illegal whereas possessing images of, for example, children being murdered is not (even if those images of murder also used for the purpose of sexual gratification).

Kalkaline ,
@Kalkaline@leminal.space avatar

Promoting the systematic genocide of minorities immediately disqualifies you from meaningful conversation. You deserve a punch in the face for being a Nazi and defending Nazis.

HenchmanNumber3 ,

Except these restrictions prevent speech, not harm.

ArbitraryValue ,

How so? I think they’re content-neutral and designed to prevent disruption (such as blocking off parts of the campus that should be publicly accessible or making a lot of noise at night) without preventing people from peacefully gathering and expressing their ideas.

PugJesus ,

Protests don’t really work if they’re not disruptive.

At the same time, any legitimate authority has a vested interest in minimizing disruption.

It’s one of those things where I think neither side is inherently in the wrong, at least insofar as the question of “Protest vs. Disruption” is concerned. One must protest for what one believes is right, even if that protest must be disruptive to achieve its goals, and one must be prepared for a response from the authorities if that protest is sufficiently disruptive. You have to break rules, and you have to accept that the authorities are not necessarily wrong in trying to enforce the rules.

Short of saying “Only people I like are allowed to protest” or “Republicans can shut down the interstate highway indefinitely because they hate gay marriage”, neither of which are particularly appealing, I don’t really think that there’s another option.

That this is all done by universities in the defense of a genocidal apartheid state, though? Not very morally ambiguous. This isn’t a minor policy disagreement, or even a major one. This is support of corruption in US politics, the blatant sabotage of US interests abroad, and apartheid and genocide in Israel. Fuck these places trying to run interference for Israel.

The dynamic still holds as valid. It’s just that the universities are shitty fucking authorities for taking the side that many of them have.

Carrolade ,

This is a common idea, but its misguided. It requires that you can pressure leadership to change their behaviors by inconveniencing people and/or costing the leadership money, otherwise it has no mechanism for success. This has never really proven to be the case when they have the cheaper alternative of using the law to remove you.

What actually needs to be done is rallying support among the masses themselves for either a paralyzing general strike, or at least a show of voting force that threatens politicians with removal in the next election cycle. Neither of these goals is furthered by simple disruptive protest. A small minority cannot impose their will without first gaining a significant amount of support from the majority, so ultimately, behaviors that are sympathetic to those less politically-engaged will see better success than behaviors that are not.

jpreston2005 ,

What actually needs to be done is rallying support among the masses themselves for either a paralyzing general strike, or at least a show of voting force that threatens politicians with removal in the next election cycle. Neither of these goals is furthered by simple disruptive protest.

Protests rally support.

Carrolade ,

No, every protest does not rally support. Some do, some do not. Which is which is extremely important.

Sarmyth , (edited )

They can, or they can erode it. I’ve never met a person won over by road blockade. It more like a call to rally people who already agree. If the classes you are going into debt paying for keep getting canceled or your graduation gets delayed because of protests, it’s not gonna endear you to protesters. You may agree with the message, but if you didn’t it would only further entrench you on the other end.

WanderingVentra ,

The universities be all

toiletobserver ,

Or, hear me out, we could stop selling things that kill people to people who kill people.

chiliedogg ,

In Texas, it’s actually illegal for a government entity to do business with a company that boycotts Israel. Calls for divestment at UT and other schools can’t legally be given any consideration because of our fucked-up state government.

Like: when I evaluate bids for the City, one of the sections I have to fill out by law relates to the bidder’s stance on the Israeli government. It’s insane.

Hexbatch ,

Also from Texas, this has been driving me crazy for years. At least they are now against international law now. Cold comfort

AI_toothbrush ,

Look. im from europe and even us havent figured that out(even in the not genocidal countries) but at least we dont send them money and weapons for FREE. At least our countries sell the weapons to genocidal countries.

chonglibloodsport ,

That means no support for Ukraine either.

toiletobserver ,

You can support with food, medicine, and infrastructure. If we believe in killing something so dearly, we can send our own people. Harder to be a war monger if your own ass is on the line.

Senokir ,

While the comment that you are replying to does lack nuance, the intent is clear. There is obviously a difference between murder and self defense.

Quill7513 ,

Keep the kids from speaking out. Definitely a good look…

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