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bartolomeo ,
@bartolomeo@suppo.fi avatar

This is a cool website, thank you for sharing.

After seeing the sign they held up in Illinois, I’m confused now how the word genocide should be used. It says “Israeli genocide in Palestine”, which brings to mind the Armenian genocide (Armenians were the victims) and Nazi genocide (Nazis were the perpetrators). Can the word genocide be used to refer to both the victims and perpetrators of genocide?

gitgud OP ,

Hard to say, I suspect people decide on a case by case basis, though I myself often hear the term genocide used after the group targeted or the location. The genocide in Germany and its occupied territories during World War II was uniquely historically bad to warrant its own terminology (hence “Holocaust” in many instances).

Most genocides actually don’t have as high a percentage of people killed as the Holocaust did, the Armenian and Greek genocides by Turkey during WW1 are actually more historically representative in that significantly more of the population are displaced, assaulted, and/or culturally destroyed than outright killed. The Holocaust combined the typical traits of genocide with a truly monstrous murder-industrial complex.

This is also why the Gaza genocide is particularly worrying, because unlike many other historical genocides (and none are acceptable), the people of Gaza are boxed in to a very small space, told to migrate to different parts of it, and then attacked in the places they move to. There is no escape for them, and this situation was entirely manufactured by Israel. Whatever the official death toll is at this moment, the real death toll might never be known and is likely significantly higher.

bartolomeo ,
@bartolomeo@suppo.fi avatar

uniquely historically bad to warrant its own terminology

Actually in that context Holocaust only refers to the Jewish victims of genocide. To not erase the 5 million other vuctims it’s necessary to use the term Nazi genocide.

The thing with the Palestinian genocide is that the Israelis were

  • killing members of the group;
  • Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
  • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
  • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, but doing it so slowly as to not arouse a response. I mean, it was happening before the current war, especially the “inflicting on the group conditions of life” part. It’s truly sick.

Gaywallet ,
@Gaywallet@beehaw.org avatar

This is a reminder to everyone that we have one rule on beehaw and that you need to follow it or you will catch a ban and if these comments turn into a slug fight we will lock them

BlameThePeacock ,

If this is Israel trying to ethnic cleanse like the headline, they’re doing an absolutely shit job of it. They haven’t even killed 1% of the population in 5 months.

I really wish people would use the right words to describe the situation.

Palestine is being given arms by Iran and friends to attack Israel, Israel is being given arms by the US and friends to protect itself from Iran and friends.

This is called a proxy war, not a genocide. It sucks thay civilians are caught up in it. However that’s one of the upsides for Iran and friends, and completely intentional, they don’t give a shit about sacrificing Palestinians in their crusade against the western powers.

This war would be over tomorrow if Palestinians had no constant supply of smuggled weapons. They sure as hell can’t support the fight themselves.

sonori ,
@sonori@beehaw.org avatar

If Israel is trying to target Hamas, why by their own admission have the majority of the bombs and artillery systems fired been systems that lack the accuracy necessary to target a specific vehicle or even building?

Why does the IDF refuse to send forces into these soposed tunnel networks in order to actually capture Hamas commanders for the intelligence necessary to actually target them?

Why are the refugees constantly being pushed closer and closer to the Egyptian border when that is the ONLY part of Gaza that has ever needed to be secured in order to stop the flow of all Iranian weapons into Gaza?

Why shut off power and water, actions which can only work to strengthen Hamas’s support among the civilian population?

Why limit IDF support and protection to humanitarian aid convoys to such an extreme that even the US has had to resort to air power because it can’t get through Israeli territory?

The definition of genocide does not and has never required that a force try and kill every last person of the targeted population, only that they try and expel or erase them from the population.

BlameThePeacock ,

You say “Hamas” like they’re a set of uniformed people that can be targeted. They aren’t, they’re a guerilla group operating intentionally inside civilian locations and even households in order to shield themselves or at least cause public outcry when Israel goes after them.

Why does the IDF refuse to send people into bunkers? Because it’s a great way to lose a lot of soldiers, bunkers literally exist to prevent entry and capturing them will cost tens of thousands of Israeli lives. Why should Israel have to fight fair if Hamas will not?

Why are they being pushed closer to the border? Because if nobody lives up north, then Hamas can’t use the northern areas to attack the adjacent areas.

Also important to remember, is that Gaza itself was created by an invasion from Egypt the day after Israel declared independence, and was controlled by Egypt for almost 20 years before Israel took it back. Now Egypt locks that border and doesn’t want these people either, while simultaneously not giving much of a shit about the tunnels being used to smuggle arms into Gaza.

Israel isn’t even trying to kill a large number of the supposedly targeted population, there are a couple of million people in Gaza, and they’re only at a few tens of thousands after months. That’s near the birth rate of the area. They may be trying to expel them from the area, but I don’t really classify that alone as genocide, given what genocide has historically looked like.

What’s happening to the 8 million Uyghurs right now in China is genocide with forced marriages and banning of cultural practices, what’s happening to the hundreds of thousands of forcibly transferred children in the Ukraine-Russia conflict is genocide, what happened to the millions of Jews killed by the Germans was genocide.

Killing 30,000 out of over two million Palestinians and pushing them into a smaller area at the south part of Israel so they stop attacking them just doesn’t meet the bar of genocide for me. Israel had to build a multi-billion dollar fucking rocket defence system just to keep civilian deaths down from this neighbor that wants peace so badly. That worked so well that Hamas instead decided to just build some tunnels and kill a thousand Israeli civilians directly, and their people cheered them on for it. I call that a war.

sonori ,
@sonori@beehaw.org avatar

deleted_by_moderator

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    bartolomeo ,
    @bartolomeo@suppo.fi avatar

    Israel’s attack in Beirut in January that killed several Hamas guys always makes me wonder, “how can they succesfully target a single apartment on valid intelligence and pull it off in Lebanon, but in Gaza they level city after city, civilians and all?”

    Genocide. The answer is genocide.

    ninjaphysics ,

    To add insult to injury, they’re also not quiet about their desire to make money from a trade route they want to build through Gaza, and the offshore oil reserves there they want to drill for so desperately. They would rather kill innocent people to level Gaza for monetary gain and positioning in the Middle East. Active, calculated cruelty.

    bartolomeo ,
    @bartolomeo@suppo.fi avatar

    Yea, Israel sold drilling rights to Gazas gas last year. thecanary.co/…/bp-israel-gas-licences-protest/

    Gaywallet ,
    @Gaywallet@beehaw.org avatar

    For fucks sake, we’re putting a requirement on how many people have to die for something to be considered bad? Using your logic I should ban you permanently from our instance, because a shorter term ban means that I’m doing ‘an absolutely shit job of it’. Luckily for you, I don’t prescribe to your world view and wish to give you a chance to self reflect on the fact that the intent to kill a large number of people is, in itself, bad. Whether you’re able to execute on murdering a large number of folks doesn’t change the evil of the intent.

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