There have been multiple accounts created with the sole purpose of posting advertisement posts or replies containing unsolicited advertising.

Accounts which solely post advertisements, or persistently post them may be terminated.

You wanted a multipolar world? You got chaos. [Edit: Do Hamas represent Palestinians?]

Paywall bypass:

You wanted a multipolar world? You got chaos

Hamas terror attack was aimed squarely at the global orderBy Paul Mason 12 Oct 2023 for medium.com …medium.com/you-wanted-a-multipolar-world-you-got…

The Hamas terror attack has triggered war in Gaza, a geopolitical crisis and now — from Sydney to New York City — outbursts of street-level anti-Semitism in the West. Unless it de-escalates quickly, it looks like a strategic turning point both for Palestinian nationalism and Israel.

I covered the 2014 war both from inside Gaza and on the streets with the Israeli peace movement. I’ve interviewed Hamas and seen how they operate up close. So, though I am no expert on the region, I can throw some concreteness into the current battle of abstractions.

Let’s start with the obvious: Israel has a right to defend itself, rescue the hostages, arrest and prosecute Hamas and engage in lawful armed combat with its enemy. But the international community has a right to demand proportionality, restraint, respect for international law, and condemn breaches of it. President Biden last night was right to emphasise the need for lawfulness.

People claiming the Hamas attack is the “violence of the oppressed” are deluded. Hamas rules Gaza like a mafia state: its operatives walk around neighbourhoods in twos, dressed in dark suits, prying into people’s business. They run the place on a mixture of terror, public service provision and the kudos of their fighters.

They are feared but there is widespread disrespect for them, especially among secular and nationalist sections of the population.

Paradoxically, the Western “anti-imperialists” trying to apologise for the terror attack, and the Israeli right calling for retribution against civilians, both need to identify Hamas with the Palestinian population of Gaza in order to justify violence. But there is no basis for doing so.

The fact that a violent action takes place in the context of a wider oppression does not make it either (a) just (b) lawful under international law or © effective in pursuit of social justice. In this case, Hamas’ act of terror looks set to achieve the opposite.

What does Hamas want?

Hamas has offered a truce and asked for negotiations, stating that it has “achieved its objective”. If so, it’s logical conclude that the immediate objective was to demonstrate proof-of-concept of an unstoppable pogromist terror. Do as we ask or we do this again, might be a fair summary.

The wider aim, according to numerous experts, is to force Hamas and Iran back into the power-broking process in the Middle East region, paralysing Saudi-Israeli rapprochement.

Iran’s leader Imam Khamenei, in a speech to the made International Islamic Unity Conference on 3 October, gave what now sounds like an early warning:

“The firm view of the Islamic Republic is that the governments that are gambling on normalizing relations with the Zionist regime will suffer losses. Defeat awaits them…Today, the situation of the Zionist regime is not a situation that encourages closeness to it. They [other governments] should not make this mistake. The usurper [Zionist] regime is coming to an end.”

Hamas could only achieve the aim of ending Saudi-Israeli rapprochement with an attack designed to trigger massive retribution, risking a regional all-out war. So why, despite its formal turn in 2017 to “anti-Zionism”, ditching the 1988 Covenant and its violently anti-Semitic language, did the attack take the form of a deliberate and extreme slaughter of Jewish civilians?

Here Zeev Sternhell’s rule applies: the pioneering historian of fascism taught us to “take fascists at their word”.

Both Hamas and the Islamic Republic of Iran have stated their aims of destroying the state of Israel often enough. But there’s a line in Khamenei’s 03.10.23 speech that, in retrospect looks explanatory:

“Thus, [the Zionists] are filled with grudge. They are filled with anger! Of course, the Quran exclaims: “Say, ‘die of your rage!’” (3:119). That’s right. Be angry, and die of your rage. And this will happen. They are dying. With God’s help, this matter of ‘die of your rage’ is happening now as regards the Zionist regime.”

“Die of your rage” might actually be a good summary of what Hamas intends Israel to now do.

Enraged by the barbarity of the attacks, Israel unleashes unprecedented collective punishment against Gaza, triggering both Hezbollah and West Bank militants to join in the fight; this in turn prompts a wave of anti-Semitic demonstrations in Western cities, and draws the USA into a regional quagmire, testing the limits of American support for Israel. Meanwhile combat losses, and retribution over the complete failure of Netanyahu’s strategy of “managing” the conflict, raise political divisions in Israeli society to the point where its democracy fails.

In a context where both Russia and China have complex hybrid destabilisation operations going on in Western democracies, and where the BRICS+ project is pursuing the active decomposition of the rules-based order, this objective does not look as mad as at first sight.

Multipolarity is chaos

Contrary to the homilies of the pro-China influence networks aimed at the global south, the “multipolar world” turns out not to be one of peaceful coexistence, but characterised by extreme conflicts and genocide.

There’s another 2000 words. I will publish the whole thing on my Medium site in the next 24 hours. To read the whole article now please subscribe …

In pursuit of systemic competition Beijing and Moscow are scraping at every open wound in the body geopolitic. Mass ethnic cleansing in Nagorno-Karabakh; a Serbian provocation in Kosovo designed to trigger ethnic conflict; genocidal actions and rhetoric by Russia in its war against Ukraine; the genocide of the Uighur people and culture; the genocide of Rohingya in Myanmar; the Sahel’s descent into warlordism, terrorism and military rule — that is a heck of a lot of genocidal activity to happen in a short space of time.

But it’s what you get when you purposefully dismantle an international order based on treaties and explicit rules. And where elites in Russia, the USA, Brasil and parts of Europe are openly experimenting with ethno-nationalist politics.

Chaos, then, is a feature of multipolarity, not a bug.

I doubt Netanyahu, and his project of replacing Israeli democracy with an oligarchic far-right autocracy, can survive this shock long-term. His project of tolerating Hamas, to play it off against Fatah, has failed. So in framing the response of the international community, we are also attempting to frame the response of any stable Israeli government that emerges from the current crisis.

Israel has signalled its military objective is to destroy Hamas. From my experience in Gaza I would say: that is possible.

But be in no doubt. It will need a sustained urban combat operation, a long-term military occupation, massive loss of civilian life, an existential refugee crisis in Sinai, and the diversion of US-supplied ammunition and resources from Ukraine. Attempting it with a largely conscript/reservist army, full of recently mobilised and enraged soldiers? Again it’s worth remembering Khamenei’s exhortation to Israelis to “Die of your rage”.

Typically, from my experience, combat in Gaza takes the following form. There is a street with children playing at one end; in the middle it is eerily deserted; at the other end is the IDF and above is an IDF drone. But there is no front line. The mujahedeen are in tunnels, popping up to take sniper shots or lay IEDs at night, and only committing ATGMs once a vehicle comes into view. The only front line is, for most of the time, between the IDF and Palestinian civilians. That’s what makes it a lethal environment for the latter. They can’t effectively shelter: and Hamas instructs them not to leave. There is no reason to believe that it will break from this modus operandi now.

In addition, the civilian population cannot flee — without the creation of formal safe routes south and a corridor into Egypt; and many will not move because as stateless people they believe they will never be allowed to return, nor to claim asylum elsewhere.

So if Israel launches any significant attempt to seize, hold and pacify Gaza, there will be massive civilian loss of life.

As someone who’s been there during a war, and seen extensive civilian deaths happening right at my feet, I am appalled at the prospect of something qualitatively worse. If in addition the attack is prosecuted using the kind of collective punishment we’re seeing now — “damage instead of accuracy”, the deprivation of water and electricity to the whole population etc — not only will liberal sympathy for Israel evaporate, but the Muslim minorities in some Western countries will be radicalised.

That is what gives the international community legitimate right to demand Israeli response is necessary, proportional and legal.

Danger of miscalculation

Both sides risk miscalculating. Hamas does not care what happens to Palestinian civilians in Gaza, many of whom hate Hamas. A chilling Channel 4 News report from inside Gaza shows Palestinian civilians frantically searching for medical help for their kids, where there is none. What happens to their minds after a month under bombardment of this severity would be uncharted territory for the people of the strip.

The thought-patterns I remember from 2014 were these: people in Gaza knew that the resistance had launched rockets, or staged incursions, in order to extract some tactical concessions from Israel, and that the bombing would at some point stop. There were regular ceasefires and continuous mediation. There was food, for those who could afford it, and a continuous 3G signal for people’s cellphones. I also remember the vehemence with which in 2014, for example, Fatah sympathisers would quote Mohammed Deif’s claim that “Hamas only attacks the IDF, not civilians”.

The panic depicted on Channel 4 News suggests it has dawned on some people that these assumptions no longer hold. People fear they will be either massacred or forcibly expelled into Egypt, with the option of living in an Israeli occupied wasteland as the only alternative.

There may be no ceasefires, no foreign medical teams, no electricity or water. As I write, the rapid deterioration of medical care, and large numbers of child victims of Israeli bombing, already show a marked change compared to conditions at this stage of the 2014 conflict.

So Hamas now either cements the loyalty of the population or its support collapses as a consequence of defeat.

But there is a danger of miscalculation for Israel too. Netanyahu’s far-right government completely missed the threat, actively stoked tensions in the West Bank and Al Aqsa, and could easily now double down on a self-destructive course.

Ultimately, you cannot hold two million people in an open air prison without a gaoler to keep order. If Hamas can’t do it, the IDF will have to be a permanent occupation force, or it will have to install the PA, or the UN will have to send a stabilisation force.

The very impossibility of all these outcomes shows why we need an internationally mediated peace, alongside a functional two-state solution, which allows the people of Gaza to live in peace, exercise democracy and travel across borders.

If Netanyahu’s endgame is a revenge fantasy of flattening Gaza and pushing its inhabitants into the desert, that’s not an endgame at all — only the casus bellifor a regional war.

The BRICS+ ideology

The Gaza crisis is the latest example of how the Russian/Chinese “multipolar world” project works in practice. It doesn’t matter whether there is a chain of command that goes Moscow→Tehran→Hamas. There is a chain of understanding — seize every opportunity to militarise all conflict; exploit every unexpected breakthrough; make all violence symbolic; weaponise the information space and push conflict into the heartlands of “imperialism”.

It’s the information-era version of Tukachevsky’s maxim: assault the enemy throughout the depths of his formation.

Both Russian and pro-China proxy networks have created media outlets, money, content and social media amplification systems for the BRICS+ ideology. Its central tenets are that a multipolar world is better than the Charter system; that universalism and international law are over; that the West no longer has the right to use the structures of international governance to normalise concepts like democracy or human rights; and that everything that disorganises the rules-based order is progressive, even when carried out by reactionary political forces.

And that explains what’s happened in the West over the past five days: Palestinian solidarity movements that which were generally aligned with Fatah suddenly moving in the direction of overtly celebrating Hamas terror.

Arab nationalism no longer looks like the dominant ideology on the demonstrations we’ve seen in Sydney, London and NYC. Alongside it there’s a mixture of Islamism plus the “decolonisation” agenda of postmodernist academia. That’s why we’re seeing the phenomenon of left-wing politicians haplessly turning up to events where the crowd, as in Sydney, chants “Gas The Jews” or, as in NYC, wave images of Swastikas on their iPhones, or where as in Brighton speakers hail the murder of 1200+ Israelis as “beautiful”.

For the past two years, during the Ukraine war, this incipient red-brown ideology has been mostly contained: see the bedraggled Stop The War demos here, the pathetic rallies staged jointly by Sara Wagenknecht and the AfD, the failure of Zoe Konstantopoulou’s left nationalist party in Greece.

What they were missing were the masses. But with this conflict there is now a danger that the masses turn up, and are corralled into this emergent fusion of far-left/far-right politics.

I’ve spent the period post-2016 trying to equip the democratic left to defeat this ideology. It’s not about being “anti-woke”, or apologising for colonialism: it means teaching people that a cocktail of anti-humanism, anti-universalism and anti-rationality is a route to excusing the totalitarian states in Russia and China, and — now — the genocidal actions of their proxies.

That Harvard statement…

A case study of this is the statement issued by 31 Harvard student groups saying they “hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all the unfolding violence” — just hours after the Hamas attack began. They have been condemned by elderly conservative alumni, but I think it’s better to engage them.

The logic of the statement is pretty simple. It makes no mention of the actual terrorist attack, the calculated killing of civilians, the hostage taking or use of disgusting imagery to instil terror. Its title refers simply to the “Situation in Palestine”.

The only concrete reference to what is happening comes in the line:

“The coming days will require a firm stand against colonial retaliation. We call on the Harvard community to take action to stop the ongoing annihilation of Palestinians.”

From this implicit premise — the non-existence of Israeli victims, or Hamas war crimes or genocidal intent — flows the conclusion:

“The apartheid regime is the only one to blame. Israeli violence has structured every aspect of Palestinian existence for 75 years.”

This, of course, is a direct echo of pro-Kremlin propaganda over Ukraine, where “NATO aggression” is the only thing to blame for Russia’s criminal aggression.

The logic is that Israel is responsible for everything Hamas does because its violence has “structured every aspect of Palestinian existence” since the Nakba.

It is a ridiculous assertion. By the same logic Israel was also “to blame” for the Black September movement, Leila Khaled, Yasser Arafat, the Oslo accords, and the two Intifadas.

The logical implication is that Palestinians have no agency whatsoever. That Hamas murders civilians because Israel has “structured” Palestinian reality to make that inevitable.

For people presumably wedded to “decolonising” the curriculum, it is a shockingly colonialist premise.

Our task — on the democratic and internationalist left — is to offer the signatories of this statement a route out of this. Learning to use formal logic might be a start. Accepting, as Marx says, that “history is nothing but people pursuing their aims” regardless of how oppression structures their behaviour, might be a second. Reference to some basic shared ethical principles might be a third.

But we need to understand how closely this hyper-deterministic and anti-universal world view maps onto the ideology presented, for example, by Putin at Valdai last week. For Putin there is no single human civilisation, only civilisations, which must be rooted in ethnicity establish their co-existence through the survival of the fittest:

“There are many civilisations, and none is superior or inferior to another. They are equal since each civilisation represents a unique expression of its own culture, traditions, and the aspirations of its people.”

In a way, what Putin preaches is an “intersectionality of the peoples”: identity politics raised from the level of the individual to the level of the ethnic group.

And it turns out anti-Enlightenment leftism makes it pretty easy to converge with that view. The common assumptions are disdain for universalism, scorn for international law and human rights, repudiation of the Enlightenment (and thus liberalism, social democracy, humanistic Marxism and anarchism) and worship of any totalitarian government that delivers economic development.

This is the modern incarnation of Stalinism, and — to the surprise of nobody who has studied actual Stalinism — it has no problem seeing fascists like Hamas as the “agent of progress”.

Two irreconcileable lefts

There’s much soul searching today, especially in the US media, about why so many on the left, and in academia, have thoughtlessly cheered on mass murder. The answer is that, first over Ukraine, and now over Hamas, the global left is rapidly splitting into irreconcileable camps — as Edward Thompson recognised it would, under the influence of post-structuralism in the 1970s.

One camp, he said, is a theology. The other a tradition of active reason. The first repudiates liberalism and universalism. The second recognises its debt to liberalism and wants to make universalism consistent. The first claims international law is a sham; the second knows that, though the institutions of the rules-based order are flawed, they are better than chaos.

Today, the first is on the side of Putin, Khamenei and Assad. The second knows that you can stand with the Israeli people under attack while simultaneously standing up for the Palestinian people’s right to self-determination.

And here’s the ultimate irony. The entire Palestinian project of a state has, since 1967, relied on resolutions passed at the United Nations and on international law. In short, on the multilateral rules based order.

Those who advocate a multipolar world without treaties, laws and norms of state behaviour need to understand how perilous such a world would be for the people of Gaza.

Those flaunting their joy at the murder of Israeli civilians need to understand the licence this creates in the minds of rightwing ethno-nationalists in our own society. What Hamas did to the kids of Kfar Azar, the far right wants to do to you.

Solidarity to all my friends in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

alyaza ,
@alyaza@beehaw.org avatar

this thread is so full of terrible, not-relevant, or just plain rule-breaking discourse across the board that we’ve decided to totally remove it, and that’s very disappointing because this is the first time we’ve had to do this to a thread. let’s please not do this again.

Scary_le_Poo ,
@Scary_le_Poo@beehaw.org avatar

deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • millie ,

    Paywalled, but the little bit before that is tiring. Gotta put that bolded ‘Israel has a right to defend itself’ lip-service to genocide before anything else can be said, huh? Tell me again how the perpetrator of apartheid is defending itself against members of the population it’s pushed into an overcrowded open-air prison by bombing them into oblivion.

    I wanna go live in the woods.

    fosforus , (edited )

    I mean it’s not great what they’ve done in Gaza, but just to recalibrate your senses a bit, this is what happens when a nation actually commits genocide against a weaker people inside its borders: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide

    A significant metric to look at is population growth. Gaza strip is one of the densest population areas in the world, and it has been growing rapidly. This is, incidentally, the reason why most of their population is under-age. In Uyghur areas, in contrast, population has been diminishing in growing rates.

    Of course, you shouldn’t also ignore the forced labor, political indoctrination, forced sterilization, forced contraception, forced abortion. I don’t think Israel has done any of these? Israel has destroyed some mosques in their attacks, whereas China has razed or damaged 16 thousand mosques in Uyghur areas. Granted, the area is much larger, so there are probably more mosques in there also. But you should note that China is not at war against Uyghurs, and hasn’t been attacked by them – they’re just destroying them.

    Here’s another: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

    And en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide

    (Why is it almost always the people who call themselves communists?)

    And of course there’s the Holocaust, but I suppose it’s not classy to refer to that in this case.

    Stormyfemme ,

    deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • fosforus , (edited )

    Perhaps all the people who would downvote me have already blocked me ;-)

    But seriously, this is not whataboutism. It’s an appeal to recalibrate and come to senses, and most importantly, not dilute an important and serious concept like genocide. Even what happened/is happening in Ukraine is probably not a genocide even though I’m happily 100% against Russia.

    streetfestival ,
    @streetfestival@lemmy.ca avatar

    All genocide is wrong

    fosforus ,

    What if somebody bullies me at school and I genocide him a little bit?

    streetfestival ,
    @streetfestival@lemmy.ca avatar

    recalibrate and come to senses

    fosforus , (edited )

    You looked at my reply to your comment and thought I was being serious?

    livus ,
    @livus@kbin.social avatar

    What if somebody bullies me at school and I genocide him a little bit?

    This comment is in poor taste.

    fosforus ,

    Yes, my apologies. School bullying is a serious problem.

    ZahzenEclipse ,

    It isn't proven Israel is committing genocide and it seems laughable to compare this to the holocaust which many critical of Israel do.

    Kajo ,

    deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • livus , (edited )
    @livus@kbin.social avatar

    @Stormyfemme I don't know, but it's pretty odd.

    fosforus effectively just argued that the population of Gaza has been growing since Oct 7, which is a pretty absurd claim under the circumstances.

    (As well as being based on a fallacious idea that attempted genocides have to be successful in order to count).

    ZahzenEclipse ,

    You're being a little obtuse

    ZahzenEclipse ,

    How?

    andrewrgross ,

    If you’re looking for a thoughtful legal analysis, you should check this out: thenation.com/…/harvard-law-review-gaza-israel-ge…

    To summarize it, human rights attorney Rabea Eghbariah makes the case that Israel’s efforts to eliminate the political agency and national identity of Palestinians should be viewed as a novel atrocity which she suggests calling a “Nakba”. She argues that using formal definitions, one can create a compelling case that Israel is guilty of at least attempting genocide in numerous discrete places and points in time, however the contours of their actions are very different structurally from past genocides, and don’t extend well when trying to characterize the broader devastation brought against the Palestinian people even when bombs aren’t falling.

    She points out that our concept of apartheid emerged from a system by that name in South Africa, and our concept of genocide emerged after witnessing the industrialization of ethnic murder by the Nazis. In this vein, rather than insisting on trying to examine the Israeli model using the tools and benchmarks of past forms of ethnic suppression, she argues that we may find it more instructive to examine it as a series of innovations in control, particularly focusing on the legal systems used to carefully segment the managed subclass into a complex hierarchy selective in its conferral of rights to movement, occupancy, and legal protection.

    I think this is a good framework. I’m very comfortable calling the campaign against Gaza in the last few weeks genocide, but many people call what has happened since 1948, or 1968 or since 2006 a genocide, and it’s understandably harder to pin down. But it starts to become easier to think about and talk about if we tie the intermittent bombing campaigns into a larger picture with the systems of work permits and building permits and water rights and so on that are used to dispossess Palestinians and render them powerless.

    fosforus , (edited )

    If you’re looking for a thoughtful legal analysis, you should check this out: thenation.com/…/harvard-law-review-gaza-israel-ge…

    This seemed like a high quality analysis by a respectable academic, then the very first source I checked out turned out to be an amazing exaggeration. The article states

    Tens of thousands are injured, and over 45% of homes in Gaza have been destroyed.

    So I check the source, which is a paywalled WSJ article. Already the title of the article is

    At Least 45% of Housing Units Destroyed or Damaged in Gaza

    Destroyed or damaged. Should I check the other sources for similar “mistakes”? Perhaps I just got lucky and found the only bullshit reference from this article written by a Harvard Law School PhD graduate?

    Or perhaps Harvard Law Review was onto something when they didn’t publish it and I would be wasting my time looking through all of them instead of just trusting them on this.

    I’m very comfortable calling the campaign against Gaza in the last few weeks genocide

    Why?

    BartsBigBugBag ,

    Because it fits nearly every single clause in the UN convention on genocide? Because Israeli officials have admitted on national tv they intend to create “a second nakba”? Because they’re using dehumanizing language to describe Palestinians? Because they’ve admitted their goal is to take over Gaza? Because they’re violently attacking hundreds of people in the West Bank, where Hamas has no presence? Because it is by definition a genocide, and apologia like yours does nothing but try to push people into genocide denial.

    iain ,

    Why is it almost always the people who call themselves communists?

    Because you’re ignoring genocides committed by others?

    What about:

    • native Americans
    • Irish
    • Bangladesh
    • Holocaust
    • Armenia

    Just to name a few famous examples.

    Besides, Pol Pot wasn’t much of a communist, as soon as he started the genocide, he lost support from other communist nations, he became a staunch anti-communist and got the support of the USA even more than a decade after the communists deposed him.

    I’m not going to argue the holodomor with you, but even there, the case is not as simple as you think.

    On top of that, the existence of bigger genocides doesn’t stop making this less of a genocide.

    fosforus , (edited )

    What about … examples

    Sure, many of these happened in a time where communism was still more like a theory (or not even that yet) than anything tried in practice. People who called themselves communist did a lot of these in a single century, most of them after WW2.

    Besides, Pol Pot wasn’t much of a communist

    To be fair, I said people “who call themselves communist”.

    iain ,

    What’s your point? Are you saying that there are always people who commit genocides and these people become communist after they read Das Kapital?

    Communism’s main rival is capitalism. If you want to make a fair comparison, you need to include genocides committed by capitalist countries too. And capitalism has been around for a fair bit longer. Not making excuses for communist countries, just putting things a little more in context.

    To be fair, I said people “who call themselves communist”.

    Communism and socialism is popular, if you are a populist, an often used strategy is pretending to be the popular thing. Hitler pretended to be a socialist, until he purged all socialists. Pol Pot pretended to be a communist, until it no longer suited him and he had them killed.

    fosforus ,

    Pol Pot pretended to be a communist, until it no longer suited him and he had them killed.

    He was the leader of the Communist Party of Kampuchea from 1963-1981, at which point it was rebranded as the Party of Democratic Kampuchea, which he lead until 1985. Also that new party was communist. The Cambodian genocide was roughly 1975-1979.

    Are you just defining people who are absolutely horrible not communists even though they call themselves communist, are allied with other governments who call themselves communist, and execute similar policies as them? I mean I get the impulse, I also get plenty of negative feelings when I think about pro-free market, pro-freedom politicians who commit atrocities or say stupid shit and would rather that those people don’t exist. Sadly, real world doesn’t always like us.

    ZahzenEclipse ,

    That's how many ML online act

    sqgl OP ,

    deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • livus ,
    @livus@kbin.social avatar

    Why is it almost always the people who call themselves communists?

    It isn't at all. Perhaps those are just the only ones that you are interested in.

    • Rwanda
    • East Timor
    • Myanmar
    • Ituri forest in Kivo
    • Darfur
    • West Papua
    • arguably Tigray and Nagorno-Karabahk recently....

    The list goes on.

    ZahzenEclipse ,

    Your bias is entirely favor of the Palestinian people, as it probably should be but I don't think your analysis is accurate in context of wider history.

    MayonnaiseArch ,
    @MayonnaiseArch@beehaw.org avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • ZahzenEclipse ,

    Are you saying this is the same level as the holocaust? That was a systemic murdering for the purposes of eliminating jews from the planet. This at its worse, as it currently stands, is an ethnic cleansing. I'm interested in what you would argue makes this genocidal over ethnic cleansing?

    ParsnipWitch ,

    For example that Gaza is overcrowded not because Israel made it so, but because on average people in Gaza have 5+ children.

    MayonnaiseArch ,
    @MayonnaiseArch@beehaw.org avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • ParsnipWitch ,

    You believe that anyone who says it is not genocide is fine with people killing Palestinians?

    So you are fine with murdering people as long as it is not genocide?

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • random
  • [email protected]
  • lifeLocal
  • goranko
  • All magazines