Age Combat 🤡

addys , 9 months ago

…“Someone shot an RPG at us from the upper top window of the building across the road, requesting air support, over…” …“They’re setting up another RPG, over…” …“Ah never mind, it’s a minor. We’ll just hope he continues to miss us”

Omega_Haxors , 9 months ago

Like Hasan said “It’s all liberalism at the end of the day”

Gorilladrums , 9 months ago

Who actually hates themselves enough to watch Hasan Piker? Not only is he an idiot, but he’s also cringe beyond hope

SpaceXplorer_8042 , 9 months ago

Well there’s also Hasan Minhaj but I don’t think he said that.

dangblingus , 9 months ago

Not that I’m outright disagreeing with you, but in what way is he an idiot? He went to Rutgers and has been a pundit for a decade. He knows his shit when it comes to history as well.

Gorilladrums , 9 months ago

He’s been essentially lying and scamming young gullible people for personal gain. He rants and supports a failed murderous ideology that he doesn’t even believe in while also being a hotspot for misinformation. His hypocrisy and lack of ethics make him a vile person.

Doods , 9 months ago

I do not understand this meme.

Considering people under 18 children is exaggerating, 13 (or whenever you hit puberty) is about the age when people can get a job, get married, and fight in war if it weren’t for society brainwashing and labeling them as children, history is with me on this one.

mino , 9 months ago

We’ve got one

Quereller , 9 months ago

In many countries minors (<18) can be in military service. In Israel and the US it is from 17 years. Why should exactly HAMAS in a population with about half children (persons under 18 years) make a difference?

Enlistment age

aaaaaaadjsf , 9 months ago

libertarian-alert

nova_ad_vitum , 9 months ago

Your second paragraph perfectly explains the first. Good self-expression.

Devi , 9 months ago

Wanting to marry 13 year olds says more about you than about them.

Doods , 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

I am not encouraging 13 year olds - or people of any age - to marry people outside their age group, I think that’s wrong under normal circumstances.

Edit: considering how fast people grow at the age of 13 their age group would be… 14 Year olds max I guess?

Edit 2: duo to how the laws of a nation cover a very wide range of people, I think we should - for the purposes of law - go the safe route and give these rights at 16, if nations normalize 16 year olds having sex then allowing marriage should be a no brainer.

Also someone else mentioned alchohol so I have to elaborate, in my perfect country, alcohol would be banned in all its - non medical - forms regardless of age.

Edit 3 : I have no idea what would qualify as an “abnormal circumstance” before anyone asks.

Edit 4 : I think porn should be banned in all its forms as well before anyone asks.

Edit 5 : I just googled IDF and libertarians and understood the meme, I just saw “12 year olds are not children” and decided to share an opinion that I still hold.

Edit 6 : If you think about it in the context of restructuring society in the way I want it to be - which isn’t detailed in this comment - it sounds like a really good idea, but sadly society is corrupted and almost beyond repair.

Devi , 9 months ago

So you agree with sexualising children as long as they’re being paired together??? But only 16 at which point it should be ‘normalised’?? This whole ‘opinion’ is disgusting.

Doods , 9 months ago

I don’t expect many to agree, as my opinion is based on me not considering 13 and 14 Year olds children, what is really the difference between 16 - again, to be on the safe side - year olds and 18 year olds that give the latter that much more freedom?

Also I despise pre marriage sex if that adds anything to the conversation.

Devi , 9 months ago

Adding that you want to bang children but only once a priest gives you ownership does not make it better no. Why on earth would you think it would? Gross.

Doods , 9 months ago

Who said I want to?

LinkOpensChest_wav , 9 months ago

People like you is why I don’t and shall never miss using reddit

intensely_human , 9 months ago

I’m not with this guy

beefcat , 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

i don’t know anybody who has gotten married or fought in a war before the age of 18. we don’t even let people drink or smoke until 21.

history is with me on this one.

you seem like the kind of person who is OK with saying only white men should be allowed to own land or vote

GarbageShoot , 9 months ago

A child who just started puberty is about the same as one who has not yet started puberty except for menstruation in the case of girls.

get married

Shit, I missed this one. Never mind, you’re just a pedo.

shiveyarbles , 9 months ago

Libertarians are like liberty to cherry pick lucrative bits of capitalism but same level of kick the ladder fuck you I got mine as regular Republicans.

intensely_human , 9 months ago

What libertarian said what to make you think that?

LinkOpensChest_wav , 9 months ago

I think government only works when it has the power to militarily dominate any competing force.

I’ll take Yikes! for 100, Alex

Trainguyrom , 9 months ago

Reminds me of the old joke “what’s the difference between libertarians and republicans? Libertarians know the legal age of consent in all 50 states”

RaoulDook , 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

This trope and this meme are lame and wrong. You people have a ridiculous idea about Libertarians that is nothing but plain prejudice.

I encourage anyone to prove me wrong by reading this Libertarian Party Platform document. Please point out anything about age of consent that is included in the Libertarian platform.

www.lp.org/platform/

Additionally, prove me wrong by showing any example of a Libertarian party member stating support for adults abusing children in the manner alluded to in this prejudiced meme / trope.

EDIT: Downvotes don’t prove anything folks. I issued a challenge here - is nobody going to prove me wrong?

CurlyMoustache , 9 months ago

Heh. Somebody got offended by a joke

RaoulDook , 9 months ago

No I am offended by the prejudice behind the joke. It’s as bad as Trumptards and Qanon morons calling Democrats pedos.

Probably not a great idea to alienate the Independent type voters ahead of important elections as well. Democrats / Leftists / whatever you are should be courting the votes of those who are not-Republicans rather than driving more division.

Necrosynthetik , 9 months ago

I can’t imagine willingly telling people I was a libertarian in the internet.

RaoulDook , 9 months ago

Can you imagine being content in life and not caring what Internet nerds think about anything? No? Too bad for you. That’s my reality.

Liberty is the most important value/concept to uphold in society and politics, therefore the Libertarian party is the best overall choice to support. Anyone who proposes to reduce liberty for the citizens of America automatically loses my support.

My ethics are clear and I’m proud of my voting record, no matter what you or anyone else thinks. Proudly supporting freedom should be applauded rather than mocked. So it’s actually you who should be ashamed for attempting to suppress our freedom with your prejudiced garbage.

dangblingus , 9 months ago

WHOOOOOOOOSH

Buddy, the definition of libertarian differs greatly from what your ilk discusses online.

RaoulDook , 9 months ago

Absolute bullshit. You are making up your own prejudiced definition, even after I provided a link to the party platform that LITERALLY defines the political stance.

In other words, you can’t prove me wrong, so you move the goalposts.

Cinner Bot , 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

I brought this up yesterday, and I’m not even a libertarian. I just have working eyes and those muscles between them run decent enough too. The ideology of libertarianism is so harmful to the corporations that run this country that it had to be astroturfed into the thought terminator cliche of “libertarian = pedo” amongst an entire new generation. They destroyed Occupy WallSt in a different but similar way, by infiltrating all the influential OWS groups and making identity politics a core tenant (if you’re white, shut up because your opinions are worthless - thought terminator cliche so ‘in your face obvious’ that they’re promoting exactly what they’re supposedly fighting against, but most were taken in anyway) - here’s a video of it in action from 2011.

lemmy.world/comment/5139983

youtu.be/SCwhlZtHhWs

The corporations that run this country love youth internet addiction. There’s never been an easier time in history to spread or destroy a movement simply by spending money. You don’t even need a puppet. It’s the ultimate power.

RaoulDook , 9 months ago

Wow I didn’t realize that happened with OWS. I just remember being disappointed that the movement fizzled out.

Divide and conquer is a well-known strategy, used endlessly by the brainwashers

DarthCaedus , 9 months ago

Much like Obomba taught us, that part in the middle of the meme that looks like says 12 year old is pronounced “Military age male”.

frauddogg , 9 months ago

Ah yes, the Drone King, first liberal saint of Genocide.

GarbageShoot , 9 months ago

first liberal saint of Genocide.

Thought that was Churchill

frauddogg , 9 months ago

Nah, that’s their first pope

CyberEgg , 9 months ago

Some of you guys have really warped definitions of libertarianism…

nixcamic , 9 months ago

The problem is libertarian groups themselves don’t stand up against anarchists joining them. I remember Gary Johnson getting booed at an official libertarian party gathering for saying he believes in driver’s licences.

Also we already know how libertarianism ends, with robber barons controlling everything and people living in company towns. It’s a terrible political ideal.

BarrelAgedBoredom , 9 months ago

American libertarians are rebranded anarcho-capitalists. Outside of the US, libertarians are largely associated with anarchism and other anti-authoritarian socialist ideologies. Any left-libertarian (the kind that would identify as just anarchist, not ancap) want absolutely nothing to do with Gary Johnson. Don’t put their shit show of an ideology on us lol

cogman , 9 months ago

Left libertarians are still opposed to a strong central government which is a core issue with libertarianism.

In your ideal government, how would child porn or slavery be addressed? Let’s assume there’s a community that formed because they think it’s a good thing.

BarrelAgedBoredom , 9 months ago

Shitty people exist and always will. It would be foolish of me to say otherwise. The shitty things they do may still happen in a stateless society. Child porn and slavery are being produced in societies with central government right now and very little is being done about it. In a stateless, moneyless society there would be no incentive for slave labor and I think that would largely/entirely disappear.

Child porn is obviously a lot more complex than that and there are several factors in play. First, anarchists and adjacent movement are staunch advocates of community engagement and vigilance. We want to radically change how society functions at the most base levels. If a child is being abused or exploited, it would ideally be easier to spot and act on. There hasn’t been a lot of research into what causes pedophilia or how to treat it in a way that would reduce/eliminate people acting on those urges. Research could be conducted into practical and holistic ways to treat their condition. Poverty is strongly linked to sexual violence of all kinds and the abolition of poverty would surely have a big part to play in the reduction of many things, including child sexual abuse. A society formed around the ideals of libertarian socialism present a real opportunity to end the cycle of abuse and that would certainly play a role in reducing child sexual exploitation.

There’s plenty more to say about this and there’s obviously a lot of detail not covered in my brief comment but there are solutions to this baked into the ideological framework of anarchism and libertarian socialism. I’m not going to say we have all the answers, of course we don’t. But a society organized from the bottom up, with a focus on equality, safety and prosperity for all would not only be incentivised to solve these problems, but would be much quicker to act due to the lack of bureaucratic red tape

cogman , 9 months ago

Child porn and slavery are being produced in societies with central government right now and very little is being done about it.

There’s a difference between very little and nothing. In pretty much every libertarian model I know of, if a bunch of child porn producers band together to make the child porn production center, nothing would stop them. The socialist libertarian movement relies heavily on local community action, but that falls apart quickly when the community is, say, a cult.

Centralized gov doesn’t have 100% of a solution here, obviously, but it has a lot more power to act, criminalize, and/or force treatment.

In a stateless, moneyless society there would be no incentive for slave labor and I think that would largely/entirely disappear.

I disagree. So long as there’s a need for labor, slavery is going to be a possibility. Some jobs suck and in a moneyless society figuring out a way to incentivize someone to take that job will be tough.

There’s more than a few examples of slavery in non-capitalist societies.

There hasn’t been a lot of research into what causes pedophilia or how to treat it in a way that would reduce/eliminate people acting on those urges.

Yes, there has. Just because there’s not sure fire solutions to it doesn’t mean it’s not widely researched. Would it surprise you to learn that one of the best treatments for pedophilia is talk therapy? It doesn’t eliminate the urges but it lowers the risk of injuring a child. The problem is, like other mental illnesses, we don’t have cures only long term care to reduce harm.

Putting that aside, covering a philosophical flaw with “Maybe someday research will solve this” is sort of like saying for capitalism “Maybe someday replicators will solve this”.

Poverty is strongly linked to sexual violence of all kinds and the abolition of poverty would surely have a big part to play in the reduction of many things, including child sexual abuse. A society formed around the ideals of libertarian socialism present a real opportunity to end the cycle of abuse and that would certainly play a role in reducing child sexual exploitation.

A doesn’t follow B. There’s no evidence that libertarian socialism would eliminate poverty. And, in fact, I’d argue that while it may solve poverty in some regions it would exacerbate it in others. One of the benefits of a global economy is that we can take advantages of the growing season in one world region vs another. Libertarian socialism imagines a world of isolated islands which is entirely counter productive general efficiencies with the production of goods.

Think about it this way, You can grow oranges in California. You cannot grow oranges in Alaska. In a world where libertarian socialism has taken hold, how would an Alaskan community survive and thrive? On the charity of other communities? What happens when one community sees that “Hey, I could send my aid to alaska, but if I send it to Florida they have some delicious gator meat and maybe they’ll be willing to send me more”… opps, just reinvented capitalism.

One of the strengths (and weaknesses) of capitalism is the global marketplace it creates. Localizing with libertarianism presents the same problems faced by rural communities in the old west. If you can’t grow it, you do without it.

There are certainly benefits to libertarian socialism, it allows for very fast actions at the local level. But there’s a major downside in that without an overarching government getting every community to play nice with one another is basically impossible. In a lib social world you couldn’t stop the an-cap dingbats from creating their feudalistic hellscape.

This comes to another fundamental issue with libertariansim of all flavors. They all envision of world where everyone has the same ideology. That world doesn’t and will never exist.

BarrelAgedBoredom , 9 months ago

There’s a difference between very little and nothing. In pretty much every libertarian model I know of, if a bunch of child porn producers band together to make the child porn production center, nothing would stop them. The socialist libertarian movement relies heavily on local community action, but that falls apart quickly when the community is, say, a cult.

Acknowledging that I don’t have a crystal ball and can’t say with 100% certainty that an anarchist society would be able to eliminate child porn is a weak point? There is a difference between very little and nothing, but compared to the current state of affairs, very little is extremely better.

Jeffrey Epstein, I really feel that I shouldnt have to say more than just that name but I will. Child porn producers, along with human traffickers and other associated enterprises band together RIGHT NOW to do that. There are plenty of examples out there of the people in power being the very ones that consume or participate in these practices. There is no incentive for those with the most authority in our current societies to put an end to child porn, human trafficking, or the material conditions that are known to exacerbate these things. Centralized governments are the status quo and they fail miserably at combatting this time and again. Every day that child porn gets produced and humans are trafficked is more proof that centralized governments are incapable of handling this.

If there are people who consciously decided to eliminate systems of heirarchy and domination on a national scale, then there are enough of them to act on human trafficking and child pornography. A society built on libertarian ideals would detest the institution of child pornography and act to see it’s elimination. Killing child pornographers that would fight to continue producing child pornography is not a controversial or complicated idea. Identify the group, get rid of it. If they won’t stop voluntarily, kill them. That’s direct action and community defense. Cornerstones of libertarian ideology. I’m not going to get into the cult bit, that’s an entirely different conversation.

I disagree. So long as there’s a need for labor, slavery is going to be a possibility. Some jobs suck and in a moneyless society figuring out a way to incentivize someone to take that job will be tough.

I disagree with that. I point you to David Graeber’s Bullshit Jobs for most of my point. People want meaningful work. It’s treated as a privilege in and of itself in our current society. If you cut out all the bullshit and evenly distribute the labor necessary to keep society functioning among those who are willing and able to work, people will work a lot less than they are now and they’ll be happy to do it.

There’s more than a few examples of slavery in non-capitalist societies.

I’m not advocating for just any non-caoitalist society. I’m advocating for libertarian socialism, anarchism more specifically. It is an ideological school of thought that is opposed to heirarchy and systems of domination. Why would a society that abolished the state on those grounds seek to dominate others through slavery? We have real world examples here. The CNT-FAI, EZLN, and Rojava didn’t/don’t use slave labor.

Yes, there has. Just because there’s not sure fire solutions to it doesn’t mean it’s not widely researched. Would it surprise you to learn that one of the best treatments for pedophilia is talk therapy? It doesn’t eliminate the urges but it lowers the risk of injuring a child. The problem is, like other mental illnesses, we don’t have cures only long term care to reduce harm.

That was lazy writing on my part. Yes, there has been research done and some treatments have been developed. I was speaking more in a curative sense. Sure, pedophilia, like depression, schizophrenia, or ADHD may not be curable. But a radical change in environment and material conditions of those affected by pedophilia would go a long way to reducing the instances of people acting on those urges. Paired with further research and development of existing techniques would go even further and potentially eliminate pedophilia. I’m not a psychologist, therapist, etc. and I won’t indulge in too much speculation about this because I don’t have the answers. But treating pedophilia like a public health risk would be a more useful framework than the one we are currently working under. This isn’t pedophile apologia either, people can and have done horrible things because of pedophilia, but our current approach is obviously insufficient.

Putting that aside, covering a philosophical flaw with “Maybe someday research will solve this” is sort of like saying for capitalism “Maybe someday replicators will solve this”.

I agree, but I don’t think our current model is working and I don’t have specific propositions to aid this. But I believe a libertarian society would be better equipped to handle it than our current system.

A doesn’t follow B. There’s no evidence that libertarian socialism would eliminate poverty. And, in fact, I’d argue that while it may solve poverty in some regions it would exacerbate it in others. One of the benefits of a global economy is that we can take advantages of the growing season in one world region vs another. Libertarian socialism imagines a world of isolated islands which is entirely counter productive general efficiencies with the production of goods.

Mutual aid is another cornerstone of libertarian ideology. Utilizing planned economies, the internet and current logistical supply chains we could eliminate poverty and scarcity right now. Shifting the focus to making sure everyone is housed, fed and healthy over what’s the most profitable is all that’s needed. Libertarian socialism isn’t about isolation, it about building a self reliant community, sure. But there’s no reason to think people in a libertarian society wouldn’t help out or cooperate with their neighbors, be it down the road, or 1000 miles away. I point you to democratic confederalism and anarcho-syndicalism for ideas on large scale solutions to organization and logistics in libertarian society.

Think about it this way, You can grow oranges in California. You cannot grow oranges in Alaska. In a world where libertarian socialism has taken hold, how would an Alaskan community survive and thrive? On the charity of other communities? What happens when one community sees that “Hey, I could send my aid to alaska, but if I send it to Florida they have some delicious gator meat and maybe they’ll be willing to send me more”… opps, just reinvented capitalism.

You’re just rehashing the myth that bartering happens in lieu of currency. This has been debunked throughly from every angle and I won’t waste my time going through something that is easily googled.

There are certainly benefits to libertarian socialism, it allows for very fast actions at the local level. But there’s a major downside in that without an overarching government getting every community to play nice with one another is basically impossible. In a lib social world you couldn’t stop the an-cap dingbats from creating their feudalistic hellscape.

I’m not saying everyone has to play nice together, or pretending that that’s what will happen. Sometimes people fight. But in a large area founded on the principles of libertarian socialism, why wouldn’t people want to cooperate? Isn’t that why they went through the whole trouble of doing a revolution for? In a libertarian socialist world, who would want to live in an ancap society? Free association and self determination are other cornerstones of the ideology. And who, seeing people trying to create and ancap hellscape, would sit idly by and allow them to dominate and oppress others? Not only is it wrong for that system to exist, it’s a systemic threat to those around them.

This comes to another fundamental issue with libertariansim of all flavors. They all envision of world where everyone has the same ideology. That world doesn’t and will never exist.

I’m not envisioning a world where everyone has the same ideology. Libertarian socialists embrace the complexity and nuance of the human experience. They want a world where everyone is able to explore and exercise their personal freedoms to the greatest extent possible, so long as it doesn’t infringe on others abilities to do the same.

cogman , 9 months ago

Killing child pornographers that would fight to continue producing child pornography is not a controversial or complicated idea. Identify the group, get rid of it. If they won’t stop voluntarily, kill them. That’s direct action and community defense. Cornerstones of libertarian ideology.

First, by what authority can a libertarian society kill another? Should there be some sort of trial? Or do you propose we just ride and kill anyone we deem undesirable? And where’s the line? Certainly it’s pretty easy to argue that child porn producers and slavers might qualify but what of others? How do you deal with the majority falling into fascism and deciding “You know what, the Catholics are a plague on society and we should eliminate them.”

I’m not going to get into the cult bit, that’s an entirely different conversation.

You should, because cults are very real things that would thrive under most libertarian models. They also show a real big problem, with unchecked power it’s pretty easy to seriously abuse societies members. Even when they technically have the freedom to leave. What happens if we remove all checks to cults? Do we decide to kill them too when the decide not to continue?

BarrelAgedBoredom , 9 months ago

The decision to kill would an act of defense. Organized sex trafficking preys on members of a community. If you see it happen, stop it. If that means killing the perpetrator, you’d need to justify it to your community, but you don’t have to kill them to stop it. If you’re going to go after the organization, then the course of action would be decided by those impacted by the organization, either by vote or by consensus, whichever applies to your community. And that decision making process goes for essentially anything within a community. Again, check out democratic confederalism and anarcho-syndicalism for in depth explanations.

What you’re describing in the second bit is genocide, not fascism. Fascism wouldn’t manifest in a bottom-up society. It’s a hierarchical system. By the time a society devolves into fascism, it would have ceased being a libertarian society long before. As for how to stop genocide, just don’t do it? It’s a form of dominance, same as other things we’ve discussed. Stand with with oppressed, support their liberation and directly act to fight alongside them if you’re able to.

And I’m not that knowledgeable on cults, I’m sure someone out there has thought about it but that’s not me. Again, they exist now and we’re not doing anything about them. When the state steps in, they’ve gone disastrously. Jonestown comes to mind. Attempts to bring people out of them are by and large grassroots movements and non-profits. Both of those systems would thrive in a libertarian model and they would have a lot less red tape to contend with in order to liberate the cult members.

What checks to cults do we currently have? The LDS church, Jehovah’s witnesses, and scientologists are absolutely massive cults that (with the exception of the Jehovah’s witnesses) have infiltrated every level of government. Why hasn’t the state eliminated cults if they’re so capable?

cogman , 9 months ago

The decision to kill would an act of defense. Organized sex trafficking preys on members of a community. If you see it happen, stop it. If that means killing the perpetrator, you’d need to justify it to your community, but you don’t have to kill them to stop it.

The argument you use there is the same argument used for genocide “We had to defend ourselves from X who are corrupting our society and way of life!”. The appeal to community only works if the community doesn’t hold prejudices against others.

But further, not how sex trafficking/child porn works. It’s not this secret cabal of kidnappers stealing babies in the night. Sex trafficking is almost always perpetrated by a trusted individual. Where this gets real bad is cults like the Oneida cult which pushed for free love of children. And this gets back to my original point, how does the community address a problem when the community IS the problem?

Both of those systems would thrive in a libertarian model and they would have a lot less red tape to contend with in order to liberate the cult members.

Red tape is not what stops people from addressing cults. It’s actually funny you mention Jonestown and mormons because both movements famously relocated their members to escape government control and interference. So you are saying that a libertarian model with even less government control would somehow end cults faster? I really suggest you read up on how cults function and move because quiet literally they are hoping and looking for libertarian areas to setup shop. Cults LOVE to pick and take over small remote locations precisely to escape the pesky government red tape and oversight. (see: Rajneeshpuram as an example).

What checks to cults do we currently have?

Not enough, but more than you’d expect. You can leave a cult, sue it if they start tracking you. Cults that abuse children (such as the FLDS) can be dismantled and their leaders arrested. Cults that physically harm or imprison their members can be subjected to legal actions (which is why scientologists put their member prison in international waters). Certainly the current system isn’t perfect, slow evolution is the nature of centralized governments. However, that slow evolution also (usually) prevents overreaction.

Why hasn’t the state eliminated cults if they’re so capable?

It’s not a question of elimination. You can’t eliminate cults anymore than you could eliminate religion itself. (and, in fact, it’s likely easier to eliminate religion as there are non-religious cults). The question is one of harm reduction to citizens. One of checks and balances to make sure the state isn’t overreaching while simultaneously penalizing organizations that do. It’s a game of cat and mouse, ultimately. The issue is these are things only fixed by regulation. Take away all the regulation and you are basically just saying “Well, hopefully that cult will sort itself out”.

Jonestown is a really good example of why just leaving them alone is a bad idea. Jonestown happened because the leader of that movement became so paranoid that when a senator visited the community, that was enough to have him push for mass suicide.

Just for your future arguments, ruby ridge is a much better example of centralized government absolutely doing the wrong thing.

BarrelAgedBoredom , 9 months ago

I’m honestly not that interested in making further arguments in defense of libertarian socialism. You seem to be more interested in pedantic nit picking about highly speculative models for an ideal society. A lot of this is relying on the idea that society is structured in a similar way, that material conditions that lead to the formation of these things will exist in their current form and that people inherently have ill intentions. You think people will more or less be the same post revolution, or even decades down the line.

I’m not sure what ideology you personally hold, but I’d encourage you to ask the same questions and turn that critical lens inward. You won’t like the answers. You may even find some of those base deficiencies indefensible. You have seemingly thought about libertarian socialism a fair bit, but you’re clearly lacking in theory and the ability to think within the framework. Your criticism falls flat because of that. If you’d like all the theory and no filler without reading a bunch of books I’ll link Anark’s A Modern Anarchism series on YouTube. It’s a synthesis of many libertarian schoolsof thought into an ideological framework that takes into account many developments over the decade. You’re so convinced that you know what’s right for the world, why not hear the other sides reasoning?

Fwiw I don’t think you’re a dick or anything, perhaps a little frustrating but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I’ve enjoyed this but I just don’t have the energy for it anymore. I hope you have a good rest of your day and that you give those videos a listen, it’s.good stuff. If you don’t mind me asking, where are you coming from and do you have any suggestions for theory that would allow me to better understand where you’re coming from? Books, videos, podcasts, whatever. I’m always looking to better understand other people’s world view

intensely_human , 9 months ago

I’m a libertarian and I’m not opposed to a strong central government. I think government only works when it has the power to militarily dominate any competing force.

I just think government should be simple, to minimize the number of ways it can break down and end up becoming a tool of the powerful to oppress the weak.

We currently have a set of laws that’s like twenty feet long when you print it out, bind it, and put it on the shelves.

That’s a lot of complexity for malicious code to hide in. A lot of places for petty tyrants to set up shop and spend their life hurting little people under a government seal of authority.

cogman , 9 months ago

We currently have a set of laws that’s like twenty feet long when you print it out, bind it, and put it on the shelves.

Turns out, life is complex. It’s either this or you end up having “rules for me but not for thee”.

But to this point, what would you have your central government in charge of? I’m certainly for axing parts of the central gov and expanding others (For example, I’d nationalize healthcare and drug production and abolish ICE and the DEA). That is, I’d push for a government more concerned with taking care of citizens and less concerned with penalizing inconsequential things like not being born here.

The reason for the miles long laws is because when you don’t have them, a capitalist society will work around them. A recent behind the bastards episode on the hawks nest tunnel ( podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/…/id1373812661?i=10… ) is a perfect example of how these sorts of regulations get created and grow.

PsychedSy , 9 months ago

Some of us are kinda both. Not many, though.

intensely_human , 9 months ago

I agree. Those fuckin anarchists are out of control

LinkOpensChest_wav , 9 months ago

What’s wrong with anarchists? I’ve never seen anarchists defending pedophilia. Anarchism doesn’t mean you just freely cause harm to others; quite the contrary.

nixcamic , 9 months ago

Oh most anarchists I know are nice people, they just completely fail to understand that not everyone else is. They don’t want to oppress, steal, rape, or murder, and so systems to prevent those things aren’t necessary.

LinkOpensChest_wav , 9 months ago

You misunderstand when you say “systems to prevent those things aren’t necessary.” These things are absolutely addressed by anarchists. We’re not foolish enough to rely on the goodness of human nature to carry us through. There is no state, there are no hierarchies, but people causing harm absolutely can experience consequences under anarchism. Diffuse sanctions, for example. At worst, they can be removed from the community or group entirely.

But more than anything else, it’s important to recognize that mutual aid is just as much a part of human nature as things like rape and murder, and the rate at which rape and murder occur are greatly exacerbated by hierarchies. For example, things like masculinity have to go, and we need to stop putting people in positions of power over others and creating such hierarchies.

And this brings me back to the topic at hand. I cannot conceive of an anarchist who would in any way approve of sexually abusing someone young enough to be considered a minor. Above all, anarchists aim to remove hierarchies, and having a grown adult in a relationship with a young teenager – this would create such a power differential that I can’t imagine any anarchist approving of it or hand-waving it away. The anarchists I know very strongly disapprove of such a thing.

The people we colloquially call “libertarians”(1) on the other hand still seem to support the state as well as hierarchies such as those created under capitalism. In fact, most self-described libertarians I know want to do nothing to address the things you mentioned, as well as nothing to address other harmful things such as the social and systemic discrimination against groups like LGBT+ people, BIPOC, women, and others.

(1)yes, a bit of a misnomer since it would make more sense to call anarchists “libertarians,” though no one does, unless we append it with “libertarian left,” though even this seems like a silly term for anarchism

Tankiedesantski , 9 months ago

Yeah, libertarians acknowledge that 12 year olds are children, they just also want to fuck children.

intensely_human , 9 months ago

Can you link to a libertarian saying that?

cogman , 9 months ago

Perhaps some facets of libertarianism are really fucked up?

Slavery and child porn are debated by libertarians because the only way to address both is centralized government. However, since most (though not all) libertarians are opposed to any central government, they end up justifying with “well if you want to sell yourself as a slave, why should anyone stop you?”.

But yeah, obviously it’s us that are aware of this who are the fucked up ones.

explodicle , 9 months ago

Can be addressed with assassination politics aimed at slavers and child abusers.

Jazard23 , 9 months ago

We can solve [crime against humanity] by [commiting crime against humanity]

PsychedSy , 9 months ago

That’s literally just a government lol

explodicle , 9 months ago

But without the monopoly on killing slavers and child abusers.

PsychedSy , 9 months ago

Yeah, you gotta take some risks. There’s no magical fix to bad shit. We just do our best and try to do better.

explodicle , 9 months ago

You think it’s a crime against humanity to kill a slaver?

RedAggroBest , 9 months ago

“assassination” is the crime against humanity, although pretty sure it’s “only just” a war crime. Although when not carried out by a govt agent, since we’re talking a hypothetical libertarian society and solution, IDK if 8t can be called that.

explodicle , 9 months ago

Why do you believe that killing (or whatever we call it) a slaver is either a crime against humanity or a war crime?

Jazard23 , 9 months ago

It is a crime against humanity to willingly take a life, no matter how vile the person

explodicle , 9 months ago

No it’s not.

Jazard23 , 9 months ago

Very nice of you to link that, I don’t see how this disproves my opinion, as murder is still mentioned on multiple occasions

explodicle , 9 months ago

Those mentions are of systemic state-run murder. That doesn’t make every murder a crime against humanity, especially vigilante justice against literal slavers.

Killercat103 , 9 months ago

I’d argue pedophilia can be to some degree be addressed with proper mental healthcare.

Asafum , 9 months ago

I’m curious what the downvotes are for… Are they saying there’s no helping them or even the thought of helping them is bad?

Of literally all the kinds of people in the world with all the kinds of mental issues they could have, I’ve never seen more vicious hatred of a group than pedophiles. Not to defend them, but it could be as simple as having a sexual attraction but literally never acting on it, yet still I see “kill them, drag them by their genitals, let dogs eat them alive and pee on them” etc… that kind of absolute dehumanizing hatred. Even the sociopaths that are literally destroying the world get by with less violent hatred.

Again, not defending pedophiles, I just think that if it’s an issue of mental help then they should be helped, not hunted.

half_built_pyramids , 9 months ago

The implication of sexual attraction being a mental health issue is fraught.

Before you let someone drag you down that slope it’s important include consent. Someone underage can’t consent to you dipping your balls in their mouth. Same for peanut butter and your pet.

Folks like to conflate pedo and by extension homo and trans as a mental health issue. Then they try to make an argument about how a trans teen can’t consent to gender care because they’re underage. As if fucking a kid is the same as a kid saying they need help.

The “pedo and mental health” comment smells like this kind of bait. It doesn’t look exactly like a Nazi, but it kinda smells like one.

Asafum , 9 months ago

I definitely understand what you’re saying, but there have to be people who find children attractive but don’t act on it so consent isn’t really the issue there, but we still have the problem of how society sees those people and the possibility of the mental anguish those people must feel. I can’t imagine what it must feel like to be “the worst human trash in the history of the world” while also not behaving in that way. :(

I guess it’s more of a “them” problem as they aren’t acting on their attractions, maybe society shouldn’t be involved in that one? I don’t know… It just bothers me when I see that kind of hatred when there’s no way 100% of pedophiles actually act on their attractions.

half_built_pyramids , 9 months ago

Quick reminder of the thread so far.

Dark humor shitpost about liberts and idf saying 12 yr olds aren’t kids.

Mild honest defense of libertarianism that either misunderstood or is gleefully playing straight in a shit post about dead kids.

A dog whistle about pedo healthcare.

Your thoughtful question.

Me honestly answering it with a dash of pissposting.

You asking about the hypothetical ideal innocent pedo and now I’m wondering if you’re shitposting too and I fell for it.

Asafum , 9 months ago

No definitely not shit posting lol sorry if it seemed that way.

I didn’t want to really reveal anything, but this is a personal thing as I know someone who is in this situation. And no I’m not reporting them, that’s not only a literal death sentence for them but I’ve known this person long enough to know they’d never hurt anyone. They opened up about seeing pictures when we were drunk a long time ago and so it bothers me when I see the hatred because I think of my friend so I’m just getting a feel for what people think.

half_built_pyramids , 9 months ago

Then this sounds like an actual mental health thing and not a dog whistle. I don’t actually have any answers. Just years of experience reading useless internet comments.

Seek a professional if you can. I don’t even know if you’re in a nation where just looking for help wouldn’t get you or your friend killed. Good luck.

Asafum , 9 months ago

Thanks! That’s kind of how I feel too, it’s a really difficult topic because of what was mentioned before as far as connecting mental health to attraction, but there definitely seems to be some forms of attraction that are problematic.

From what I remember at the time, I believe he said he can’t go get help because they have a duty to report him if he were to bring it up. Anyway, thanks for the time!

intensely_human , 9 months ago

Imagine my own shame and horror at discovering I’m only sexually attracted to drunk people.

intensely_human , 9 months ago

This is a textbook case of ideological reasoning.

Instead of reasoning that X is true or false based on evidence that it’s true or false, one reasons that X must be false because if it were true it might encourage thinking Y, where Y is unacceptable.

Literally the definition of ideologically-motivated reasoning.

half_built_pyramids , 9 months ago

I like that we’re getting into debate and philosophy in a shitpost.

There’s this idea that valuable discourse only belongs at universities and in lofty state office. I say it’s here in the shit that we’re shaping tomorrow’s culture.

intensely_human , 9 months ago

I’m a civil engineer. My primary value to society is my ability to handle shit.

Killercat103 , 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

I’m classifing pedophilia as a mental illness yes but transexuality and homosexuality is of course not. When I stated pedophillia I meant the sole attraction to children alone not actions that’s immoral and a crime. I want pedophiles to be able to address this early on and be able to seek treatment.

Also, what does my comment have to do with nazism at all? I am lib-left. “Smells like one”? For suggesting pedophiles should get mental help? Forgive me but is this a serious accusation or a joke that went past my head entirely?

intensely_human , 9 months ago

Pretty sure the libertarian stance on slavery is that it is wrong, given the lack of liberty that slaves have. And the fact you can use a government to ensure nobody gets enslaved demonstrates the difference between a libertarian and an anarchist.

The maximum amount of personal liberty does not come from zero government. It comes from having enough government to prevent people from enslaving other people.

cogman , 9 months ago

Pretty sure the libertarian stance on slavery is that it is wrong

Libertarians are VERY individualistic (shocker) which means no 2 libertarians define libertarianism the same way.

HOWEVER, you literally just have to search for “slavery libertarian” in the google box to find all sorts of fairly high profile libertarians arguing about how slavery can actually be a good thing that we should allow.

For example, from Walter Block: www.kspjournals.org/index.php/JEST/article/…/346

huge_clock , 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

You didn’t read the article you linked. In it Walter Block states that slavery violates the non-aggression-principle and is not permissible under libertarianism.

cogman , 9 months ago

Let us now double down. Previously (Block 2005; 2013) wrote that slavery, in the absence of violence, compulsion, NAP violation was ―not so bad.‖ That was a poor choice of words. It was an inaccurate understatement. The truth of the matter is that under these conditions ―slavery‖ would be a positive good. There, I said it. I will say it again: ―Slavery‖ would be a positive good, under these conditions. Make of that what you will, New York Times and other enemies of freedom and logic. But note that when I assert that ―slavery‖ would be a benefit, two things occurred. First, I placed quote marks (―‖) around the word ―slavery‖ and second I mentioned that under these conditions it would be beneficial. I did not say, and I entirely reject the notion that slavery as actually practiced was anything other than a disgrace, a stark horrid evil. It is my view that the movies ―Django Unchained,‖ ―Twelve Years a Slave,‖ and the television series ―Roots‖ are roughly accurate depictions of this monstrous practice

intensely_human , 9 months ago

The only slavery I can think of without compulsion would be some kind of BDSM relationship, so he’s technically correct it’s no problem in that scenario.

Aside from any kind of roleplay, slavery involves compulsion. Slavery without compulsion is like an apple without fruit.

huge_clock , 9 months ago

What do you think he’s saying here?

huge_clock , 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

This is not at all a debate in libertarianism. Libertarians recognize the role of a limited small government to protect individual rights. Like please pull up one example of this debate going on in a libertarian space.

Libertarians don’t believe murder should be legal and crazy shit like that. Libertarians believe in a guaranteed freedoms like freedom of speech, economic liberalism and are often social progressives who believe in gay marriage and drug legalization.

The bill of rights was brought to you by libertarians.

NotErisma , 9 months ago

Nathan Larson was a libertarian- no need to spin up narratives when it sets itself up, nice try though.

PsychedSy , 9 months ago

To be fair, we make fun of ourselves in this regard.

PelicanPersuader , 9 months ago

Found the libertarian.

dangblingus , 9 months ago

I mean, if libertarians didn’t openly discuss the age of consent and the differences between pedophilia and ephebephilia, maybe people wouldn’t think they’re all a bunch of pedos.

Pinklink , 9 months ago

There’s one more group that would make this argument……

BennyHill500 , 9 months ago

Liberals in a worker shortage

Ghyste , 9 months ago

What fantasy world are you living in? So dumb…

yogthos , 9 months ago

www.epi.org/…/child-labor-laws-under-attack/

Ghyste , 9 months ago

Red states. What part of that isn’t clear?

yogthos , 9 months ago

Ah yes, red states like Minnesota and New Jersey. 🤡

pingveno , 9 months ago

Any legislator can introduce a bill, so “blue” and “red” don’t really indicate much. You have to look at who is sponsoring the bill. In Minnesota, that is Republicans and it’s going nowhere. In New Jersey, that’s Democrats and it got into law.

Lesrid , 9 months ago

You’re replying to a hexbear user. When they use the label “Liberals” it includes the folks you immediately think of but it also includes conservatives., as in economic liberalism.

yogthos , 9 months ago

no, I mean mean US democrat liberals and the link I provided shows that child labor restrictions are being loosened in both red and blue states

Lesrid , 9 months ago

Yes they’re all liberals. That’s what I said. The guy was like ‘where blue states I thought you said libral’ and so I had to clarify that in this context the word applies to both not just blue.

yogthos , 9 months ago

You’re right, ultimately both sects are fundamentally rooted in liberal ideology. I just wanted to clarify that I was talking about the blue liberals specifically in my reply.

Graylitic , 9 months ago

This happens in red and blue states. Additionally, conservative ideology is based in liberalism, with added brushes with fascism as compared to blue states.

Strawberry , 9 months ago

This dude don’t know bout liberals

hedgehogging_the_bed , 9 months ago

Only one? I’m stuck between the US court system and Mormons looking for a wife but I guess Republican Congressmen’s Dating Pool is also a possibility.

jannis , 9 months ago

What about the Catholics? The age of consent is 12 years in Vatican City

IAmHisBiggestSpoon , 9 months ago

So easy to Google that it’s 18…

Rayspekt , 9 months ago

Fuck, marry, kill: Degen edition

ZILtoid1991 , 9 months ago

Libertarians
Fascists
The IDF

danc4498 , 9 months ago

Libertarians are fascists…

coffee_poops , 9 months ago

So are the IDF…

bingbong , 9 months ago

I think you’re on to something boys

c0mbatbag3l , 9 months ago

Libertarians are morons in their own right but the core philosophy of libertarianism (in the political compass sense) is the opposite of authoritarianism, which is where fascism stems from. A group that doesn’t want centralized government can’t also want a centralized government that enforces sociopolitical ideology.

The more you throw around the word “fascist” to mean “anything right of me that I don’t like” the more the word loses meaning and becomes like the “communist” rallying cry of the boomers.

danc4498 , 9 months ago

Libertarians are also hypocrites that don’t follow their own ideologies.

c0mbatbag3l , 9 months ago

True, but are they actual libertarians, then? Wouldn’t they just be conservatives? You can call yourself whatever you want, actions are what define you.

danc4498 , 9 months ago

Yeah, I was just being super cynical. The elected libertarians never seem like actual libertarians.

intensely_human , 9 months ago

Right. So much overlap between those political philosophies 🙄

Gorilladrums , 9 months ago

“everything I don’t like is fascism”