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Blackmist ,

The main issue in the push for electric cars, is that we’re pretending that we can fix things with no lifestyle changes.

And for the richer people, that’s probably true. But there’s a big chunk of people for whom the electric car revolution means no more personal transport.

I accept that, but we need to invest in public transport exponentially more than we are doing. It needs subsidising up the wazoo so people outside the inner-city bubble can still get around. By just pretending that electric cars will reach affordable levels for the poorest, we’re inviting trouble further down the line when they can’t use their petrol cars any more.

Haui ,
@Haui@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Well, transportation is the biggest emitter. [www.epa.gov/…/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions#:~…](https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions#:~:text=Transportation%20(28%25%20of%202021%20greenhouse,ships%2C%20trains%2C%20and%20planes).

And personal cars as well as trucks are the largest emitters among those. www.cbo.gov/publication/58861

I do agree that there should be done a lot more to make this go faster. One of the most obvious things is immediately outlaw the production of gasoline suvs. They‘re inefficient and rather pricey so you wont hit anyone who‘s life depends on it. Then outlaw the production of any gasoline sportscars.

Obviously the expansion of public transport is still important but selling new v8 suvs demoralizes anyone trying to do the right thing.

OppositeOfOxymoron ,

My electric car was manufactured ONCE. It’s powered by 99% green power (hydroelectric). It burns no gas/diesel, requires no oil changes. I intend on keeping it for 15+ years (my last vehicle got to 16 years before the electrical system fried).

It is better by literally every measure short of walking everywhere.

andy_wijaya_med ,
@andy_wijaya_med@lemmy.world avatar

Hey how about bike man

Nobsi ,
@Nobsi@feddit.de avatar

How do i bike 30 miles each way? Even ignoring infrastructure needs and how bad most road surfaces are and how biking is death on a highway…

Poxlox ,

Remember, 100 companies are responsible for 71% of global emissions.

Blackmist ,
  • 100 companies providing fossil fuels to 99% of the human race.
rexxit , (edited )

I feel like this point is missing the big picture: people create the demand, and companies supply what the market demands. Like or hate “the free market”, this is essentially what it is. If there were magically 1/10th the number of humans on the planet, we would expect those companies to have 90% less emissions. It’s not that some of these companies aren’t bad actors, and have actions that are at times immoral, it’s that they are amoral actors in a market economy that is only responsive to consumer demand.

The example I like to give is that companies’ race to the bottom on quality. They’re responding to human behavior, where if an item on Amazon is $6, and another very similar item is 10 cents cheaper, the cheaper item will sell 100x more. This is a brutal, cutthroat example of human behavior and market forces. It leads to shitty products because consumers are more responsive to price and find it hard to distinguish quality, so the market supplies superficially-passable junk at the lowest possible price and (with robust competition) the lowest possible profit margin.

Kilamaos ,

I feel like YOU are missing the point. Even tho you say exactly why this matters the most.

Yes market respond to demand. Compa oes DGAF whether they pollute, only that people buy. That’s why the ONLY solution is that all these companies are regulated to pollute less. If everyone has to, then they are still equal and people won’t buy a cheaper alternative that happens to be more polluting.

Hell, I’d go as far as to say that it only matters if the top 5-10 countries do it. If China, USA, and India don’t do this, the entire world is fucked and there is nothing to be done by anyone else.

Omega_Haxors ,

I see you have made a systematic analysis, ha! Unfortunately you failed to consider one small thing: [reverb bass boosted] individual choices

Yoinkle ,

Source?

superfes ,

Well, the carbon footprint calculator I used may not be accurate, but for the same mileage on my car vs an electric car is about 1/2 the carbon… and I assume the electric car’s footprint decreases even more over time…

Certainly, electric cars aren’t solving all the problems, but reducing my carbon footprint by 1/2 over a 10 year period sounds like a pretty good start.

Cerbero ,

No one ever addresses the national security aspect either. OPEC can’t fuck with the economy as easily with electronic cars and trucks.

papertowels ,

Yup, as we’ve recently seen, the federal petroleum reserve really isn’t as plentiful as we’d like.

TrickDacy ,

This post is fucking idiotic. Without electric cars climate change CANNOT be addressed.

Nothing is ever as simple as a single solution. Mouth breathing OPs need to get that through their thick stupid skulls

Custoslibera OP ,

Oh I’m reasonably confident if we got rid of cars that’d be a good thing for the climate.

If there was plentiful mass transit the need for electric cars is reduced greatly.

Cars are terrible forms of mass transport and societies need to deprioritise them in city planning.

The idea that we can just keep doing what we’re doing and replace all ICEs with BEVs and it’ll solve climate change is not really the full story.

Now if you’ll excuse me I’ll go back to my mouth breathing.

TrickDacy ,

Yeah I want cars to die honestly but if I were stupid enough to think it’s going to happen, then … I’d be a moron.

WldFyre ,

Look into going vegan, it’s an even more impactful step that someone can personally make.

federatingIsTooHard ,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

Look into going vegan, it’s an even more impactful step

going vegan has no impact at all

WldFyre ,

Do you have any sources for that? Literally have no idea how you come to that conclusion

federatingIsTooHard ,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

can you tell me what year you went vegan? feel free to point to it on this chart.

ourworldindata.org/…/global-meat-production

WldFyre ,

I’m not sure what you think that proves. World population has grown and people eat more animal products than ever, which is part of my argument that we should be cutting back on animal products and eat more humane and more efficient food sources.

Thanks for linking to proof of my point.

federatingIsTooHard ,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

whatever your excuse is, being vegan hasn’t helped any animals

WldFyre ,

How do you figure? Genuinely don’t know how you could come to that conclusion.

Also, why are you arguing so aggressively about me being vegan? Sounds like denial or guilt for killing animals that you don’t have to tbh

federatingIsTooHard ,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t care if you are vegan, but don’t lie to yourself or others about whether it makes any difference

federatingIsTooHard ,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

How do you figure?

no fewer animals are killed than before you became vegan.

WldFyre ,

If everyone went vegan, do you think the number of animals killed would stay the same? This is like a blend of “voting doesn’t matter” and “abolitionists have no effect since the slave population has grown every year.”

federatingIsTooHard ,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

abolitionists free slaves. where are the animals you’ve saved?

Sunfoil ,

Without electric VEHICLES* climate change cannot be addressed. Expensive new electric cars are not the solution. Electric public transport, retrofitting old vehicles, making current vehicles last, and people adopting two wheeled electric solutions will be the solution. Cars like Teslas are awful and buying one shouldn’t be considered making a difference.

TrickDacy ,

Yeah the key is for people to understand that incremental improvements are the way.

I’m in no way saying we should run out and buy shit. I’m saying that shitting on electric cars is counterproductive

SkyNTP ,

The things you mentioned should absolutely happen in the areas that have the population density to make these solutions practical. Let’s also remember that this is not 100% of the planet.

Sunfoil ,

This is 100% of the planet. What about living rurally stops you from maintaining or retrofitting current vehicles, or going two wheels?

ThunderWhiskers ,
@ThunderWhiskers@lemmy.world avatar

What about living rurally stops you from

maintaining or retrofitting current vehicles

Cost, accessibility, and vehicles don’t last forever.

or going two wheels?

If you’re talking about motorcycles, they are basically death traps and many people aren’t comfortable on them. If you’re talking about bicycles, they are basically death traps and people don’t always want to exercise to get where they’re going and rural areas are by definition sparsely populated, bikes would take forever Neither of those offers options for families or bad weather.

Like it or not personal vehicles are a necessity in most of America.

ultra ,

Bikes are ok outside streets, but pretty dangerous on streets.

Motorcycles are way faster bikes that are mainly for streets. Truly death traps

Sunfoil ,

So if rural people aren’t maintaining their vehicles, what are they doing? Obviously they are and you’re being silly. There are cars that when correctly maintained, have kept running for the entire history that cars have existed.

Great to see you have such an informed take on two wheeled vehicles. The issue with two wheels isn’t engineering, it’s public perception, fuelled by dumb takes like yours. Obviously we have to change what people perceive as viable personal transport.

The solution of two wheels in the EV space is quickly obvious. Most car journeys are a single person. You don’t need a 2 ton box to carry one person places.

When solving for the limiting factors of electric drive systems, you need to minimize resistances. Two wheels is less rolling resistance, less weight, and adding an enclosure, less air resistance. Put the rider in a recumbent riding position and place the batteries underneath, you have an incredibly stable, low friction, light, personal EV that maximizes your effective range while being simple, cheap, accessible. The enclosed nature makes the rider as safe as they would be in a car in case of an accident, and you’re as weather resistant too. Obviously families, workmen etc still need 4 wheels but as I said most car journeys are for a single person. These could be made for two people also.

ThunderWhiskers ,
@ThunderWhiskers@lemmy.world avatar

So if rural people aren’t maintaining their vehicles, what are they doing? Obviously they are and you’re being silly.

So what the fuck are you talking about then? Either you’re implying that existing vehicle lifespans should be extended beyond what normal care allows through “maintenance” or it’s irrelevant to the conversation.

I won’t bother quoting the rest of your comment but the same question applies. What are you even talking about? Nobody said anything about engineering hurdles or the difficulties of an electric two wheeled vehicle.

You got so caught up in being “right” you forgot what the discussion was even about. I’ll break it down.

Two. Wheeled. Solutions. Are. Not. Universally. Practical. Quit trying to assume you know what’s best for everyone.

Sunfoil ,

Jesus, I’m not saying they’re universally practical, that’s why I have given a range of options. You’re missing the point that people buy new cars while their old car is perfectly good.

Most cars will run for hundreds of thousands of miles with standard maintenance, which people neglect to do. Retrofitting electric solutions to existing cars would further extend their life, as the low work-life components are all in the drivetrain.

I outlined what a two wheeled electric solution should be because you dismissed the entire sector as death traps, which is wrong and counter productive. A perception we need to overcome when the only economic option for a lot of people’s personal transport will be motorcycles of some description.

If there was a 25% adoption of motorcycles to commute with, traffic congestion could effectively disappear.

I do know what’s best for everyone. Its stopping climate change, removing our reliance of fossil fuels and switching to more economical forms of transport. Rural people do not need to ferry themselves around in a 2 tonne Ford F-150 doing 10 mpg with a v8 to run basic errands. Because you obviously missed it; OBVIOUSLY FAMILIES AND WORKMEN NEED MORE CARRYING CAPACITY. For those situations an electric van or low cc petrol engine could be used. However 60%+ car journeys are single occupancy errands and commuting. There is no excuse for not being on two wheels in that case.

ThunderWhiskers , (edited )
@ThunderWhiskers@lemmy.world avatar

You’re missing the point that people buy new cars while their old car is perfectly good.

Edit: I see now that you are saying people buy new cars to replace a perfectly good old car. This is true, and also not your decision to make for other people. I also don’t see what that has to do with anything beyond new vehicle production, which EVs don’t fix.

Most cars will run for hundreds of thousands of miles with standard maintenance, which people neglect to do.

Irrelevant.

Retrofitting electric solutions to existing cars would further extend their life, as the low work-life components are all in the drivetrain.

Do you know where to get this work done in your town? I don’t. I live in an enormous metropolitan area so the service is almost certainly available, but I wouldn’t even know how to start looking. And what about people in rural areas? You think it’s available there? Or if it is where it can be found? This would be the accessibility I was talking about earlier.

I outlined what a two wheeled electric solution should be because you dismissed the entire sector as death traps, which is wrong and counter productive.

A motorcyclist is 25-30 times more likely to die in a fatal accident. So you’re just wrong about that. And unless you’re an automotive designer your two wheeled electric solutions are just pipe-dreams until someone actually commercializes one.

I feel like I’m coming off as being against EV when I am very much not. In fact I wish that mass transit was actually a practical solution everywhere, but it isn’t. I wish that we could just leave combustions in the past but we aren’t quite there yet.

I know for certain that you’re coming off as an asshole who thinks he has all the answers but clearly you don’t because I don’t see your two-wheeled ev wonder car being advertised.

When people like you show up and start saying things like “the solution to climate change is for everyone else to ride bikes and use technology that doesn’t exist yet”, the only thing you’re really doing is making the rest of the movement look more radical than it has to.

Sunfoil ,

I never said I had all the answers I’m saying these are the areas people should be putting in effort to future proofing transportation. Just because you’re ignorant of things doesn’t make them impossible Sci Fi pipe dreams. Electrom, Velomobiles, Transition One. 3 examples of MANY of commercial enterprises successfully making the technology I’m discussing. We’ve had electric recumbent two wheel transport since at least the 90s. The solution is there; awareness and understanding is what is lacking, as I’ve said it’s an issue of perception and PR with the general public, as you’re elegantly displaying.

People’s buying habits aren’t my decision but they are all of our problems. The reason why it’s relevant is because a Tesla is an incredibly environmentally damaging product to produce, and Smaller, lighter EVs that make more use of less batteries are a more environmentally efficient prospect.

People not maintaining what they have is not irrelevant it’s one facet of this massive issue of waste and environmental damage in transport. Maximizing the work-life of their vehicles is one of many things people can be doing to help environmentally.

A motorcyclist is more likely to die on a traditional motorcycle, which while better than cars environmentally, isn’t what I’m talking about, as I’ve said, these solutions are enclosed the crash protection is vastly superior than a normal motorcycle; two wheel transport aren’t just motorcycles. I would also say the chances of a car driver dying in a fatal accident are incredibly low, and even 25 times that is still incredibly unlikely. And also the cause of motorcycle accidents are in a massive majority the fault of car drivers. Less cars, less accidents, less pollution, less traffic.

Climate Change is a serious issue. We genuinely are fucked if we don’t make massive changes. The fact you think what I’m suggesting is radical is wild. Sadly we have all of these solutions that people could be adopting, thereby limiting ICE usage massively, but no one cares. We’re fucked.

Techranger ,

I went two wheels! My moto gets excellent fuel economy without the use of exotic metals like a hybrid or EV does. It was also way cheaper to buy than a car. Sometimes my parking is less of an impact, too because I can park in the landscaping islands in some parking lots if it’s busy and I’m sneaky about it. One must be a very diligent and defensive rider and wear protective gear when riding. Having a different perspective about traffic flow helps with safety as well. Going slow for a bit after a stop while everyone else rushes ahead is a great way to keep traffic away from oneself. Also, having all the lights has helped everyone see me. No more cars pulling in front anymore. Don’t be an arse, be extremely vigilant, and respect the machine. These rules have helped me so far. Many motorcyclists don’t do that and have really skewed statistics and perception, I think.

Bytemeister ,

2 things here.

First, motorcycles have a better fuel economy than cars, but they also produce more harmful emissions than a car because their smaller engines burn fuel less completely/efficiently, and there are fewer (if any) laws mandating tailpipe emissions standards for motorcycles.

Second, with all the entitled morons on the road who consider a few seconds of inconvenience more important than your life, who can’t put down their fucking cell phone, check their mirrors or use their turn signals, I consider it only a matter of time until a car accident happens. Motorcyclists lose every time they tangle with cars, and car drivers are a lot less aware of motorcycles, and more likely to get in an accident with them than other cars. Good luck.

johnyma22 ,

Fun fact: In the UK there is no ability (DVSA/DVLA[requirement to legally taxing/insuring a car]) for legally driving a converted ICE to Electric car. This is due to the MOT test having a test for CO2 and if the test returns null or “out of bounds” the car fails it’s MOT and therefore is illegal to drive.

Such a wonderful country.

Sunfoil ,

Yep, it’s a general theme with governments and companies not enabling the repairability and freedom we need for EVs. Just one look at the repairability of a Tesla should show people it’s not the answer, yet. There is still hope on the continent with companies like Transition One in France forging ahead with conversion kits. Hopefully the UK follows suit once these are viable products being sold. I would recommend a letter to your MP if you haven’t already I suppose.

johnyma22 ,

FWIW; this is not a practical problem, it’s a political one. Conversion kits don’t get a pass/by from the law, they are subject to the same laws just like home brew conversions.

ThunderWhiskers ,
@ThunderWhiskers@lemmy.world avatar

Afraid you’re wasting your breath. OP appears to be a member of fuckcars, which feels like it’s coming from a good place but is mostly just short-sighted and infantile. I live in DFW and not having a vehicle is not an option, but these folk would classify me alongside the devil because I dare to use a combustion engine. If I could realistically use an electric vehicle I would.

I’m sure that in OPs mind everyone should just abandon their cars tomorrow and that will immediately solve all of the climate change as if private vehicle owners are the ones actually causing the problem in the first place.

rexxit , (edited )

Fuckcars is made up of people with little life experience who think they have all the answers, and people who fetishize city living and think it’s normal or healthy for humans to live at a density like NYC (and fuck you if you disagree). They’re oversimplifying to the point of meaninglessness, and handwaving away the problems.

Strawberry ,

I’ve lived in places far less dense than NYC with robust public transit far better than NYC. Owning a car would’ve just been a burden 99% of the time. And it was certainly healthier than living in car-centric suburbs, both physically and mentally. Not everywhere is America where we can’t fathom anything but cars and McMansions

rexxit ,

What’s far less dense with better public transit than NYC? The most popular example of no-car city design I see is Amsterdam, which is 1/2 the density of NYC, but still 15x the density of where I’m from (not even close to a rural area). I think robust public transit at 1/15th the density of Amsterdam and 1/30th the density of NYC is a pipe dream.

In these lower density places, maybe you luck out and you’re walking or biking distance to work. If you change jobs do you have to move instead of hopping in the car and commuting a bit further? In circumstances like these, transit can’t possibly serve every origin and destination efficiently, and personal vehicles can offer efficient point to point.

Strawberry ,

I lived in Heidelberg, with a population density of 1500/km², so about 4x the density of your place. There was a robust bus system, tram system, commuter train system, and then of course Germany’s regional and intercity train systems. There were also plenty of public rental bikes and bike lanes. I could go anywhere in or around the city quite easily and quickly, as well as any other city in Germany (or the EU, for that matter). Trams had a frequency of about 10-15 minutes, rapid buses about the same, the bus stops by my house had a frequency of 20 minutes. There were suburbs up the river which also had phenomenal bus and commuter train access directly to the city and elsewhere.

The American town I live in now has a density of 900/km² and about ⅓ the population of Heidelberg. We just got our first bus last year and it runs in a loop once per hour. The train station was demolished decades ago.

I also lived in Sejong, with a population density of about 750/km², so about 2x your place. In addition to dedicated bike lanes on every major road and very large sidewalks, there was a extensive bus system and a very efficient rapid bus loop system as well. The rapid buses had a frequency of about 10 minutes and could take me to the other side of the city in about 15 minutes. The smaller buses also had a high frequency of about 15-20 minutes, depending on the bus. The train station in sejong is still under construction but it was a ~30 min rapid bus line ride to either of two train stations in neighboring cities to take me anywhere in South Korea.

Some of the other Korean cities with densities somewhat higher than Sejong, like Daejon which is about 2700/km², have really incredible subway/metro systems too.

In Germany, the nearby cities of Stuttgart (3000/km²) and Frankfurt (3100/km²) also had great subway systems, in addition to the buses, trams, bike lanes, and commuter trains.

The commuter and regional trains serve also the purpose of connecting much smaller towns and villages, which are far less dense but still served by good bus systems and such.

I do agree that America has sprawled so much as to make the transition more difficult. But great density-appropriate public transit is possible at low density.

Ranger ,

You should keep an eye on Edison Motors, they’re developing practical hybrid heavy vocational trucks & have a side project for a pickup retrofit kit that I’m waiting for.

TranscendentalEmpire ,

This post is fucking idiotic. Without electric cars climate change CANNOT be addressed

I mean, that’s not true at all… America would just have to build actual public transportation. We just attach a feeling of personal freedom to cars that’s so prevalent that Americans cannot fathom the idea of expanding public transportation.

And yes, of course public transportation isn’t going to reach everyone in rural America. However, if a significant portion of the urban/suburban population switched to electric rail, it would curb climate change faster than everyone slowly replacing their personal vehicles.

TrickDacy ,

I’m just being realistic. I actually hate cars but I’m under no illusion they’ll go away any time soon. We have to make progress in many forms and car reduction is one of them

TranscendentalEmpire ,

I’m just being realistic. I actually hate cars but I’m under no illusion they’ll go away any time soon.

I honestly don’t know which idea is honestly more “realistic”. I think either halting climate change in time is probably a long shot, but which is actually feasible…

The largest problem with electric cars is that we more than likely aren’t going to be able to force people to stop driving with gas. Which means we will still be reliant on a fossil fuel industry, and when there is demand, there will be supply. Unless we quickly curb demand to a significant degree, fossil fuel companies will do anything they can to keep those cars on the road.

The second largest problem with EVs is that they have a much larger production carbon footprint than traditional vehicles. This gap in the carbon footprint is closed within a year or two of driving, which normally would be fine… but with the time constraints of climate change, that initial production carbon is a pretty big hurdle.

And I agree that we have to make progress in several forms, but some of those forms are just going to be a fossil fuel company’s attempt to preserve their profit model disguised with a green sashe.

Kit ,

Crawl -> Walk -> Run.

We’re in the crawl phase. Let’s leverage less-harmful technology to reduce our impact on the environment while simultaneously investing in ideal solutions like public transportion and walkable/bikeable cities. It will be a slow transition and we need to embrace every step in the process.

TrickDacy ,

Which is what I’m saying.

Kit ,

Yes, I was agreeing with you. That was the point of my reply.

tigerhawkvok ,

This is questionably accurate.

It’s not just a matter of building the rail, it’s also redesigning the urban sprawl. That’s a LOT of new construction of buildings needed, too. That comes with new utilities, etc. And cement is a huge carbon source.

There is a time scale over which that’s more carbon efficient than replacing all personal vehicles and their replacement lifecycles, but it’s very unclear if that’s actually faster with regards to climate change timelines.

BeMoreCareful ,

Honestly, cars are polluters, but they’re not our big polluters.

There are way more effective ways to address climate change.

Cars are probably one of the more effective things that are accessible to single users.

Colour_me_triggered ,

In countries that generate almost all of their electricity from renewables, they are better tbh. Although more environmentally damaging to produce.

Trashcan ,

Its always more costly and less efficient to produce new things in smaller quantity than large numbers. So electric car manufacturers at this point in time costs more to produce from an environment perspective. As the number of electric cars go up, my understanding is that this will compare to fossil fuel car production.

Imo you cannot compare these two as its impossible to be as efficient as a large scale manufacturer until you become one yourself.

ReakDuck ,

It has nothing to do with quantity.

Electric cars have batteries that need cobalt and other stuff that is hard to get which a normal gas car would never need.

RaoulDook ,

At the moment they do with the Lithium batteries but better and cheaper batteries are already on the market that have solved that rare minerals problem. Sodium ion batteries have most of the capacity by weight of Lithium type batteries, but they do not require any of the rare minerals, in fact they can be made with minerals that are cheap and abundant in the USA. They are also non-flammable, much safer than lithium.

malhelo ,

Fossil fuel cars do use cobalt though, significantly less though. But they also need fossil fuels which are hard to come by (in an environmentally friendly way.

InputZero ,

Yeah economies of scale are absolutely a thing, but what the average person is coming around to is the idea that the personal vehicle is environmentally unfeasible. Tyre wear alone has a significant environmental impact and electric vehicles are only going to make that problem work. That’s just one factor of countless factors. Transportation is a necessity, personal transportation isn’t (not entirely true, some places have such terrible transportation infrastructure that a personal vehicle is a necessity). Electric car manufacturers are never going to tell you not to buy their car regardless of the fact that their products significantly contribute to climate change.

Discombobulated_Back ,

The problem is more like that cars that use fossil fuels have a very much lower efficiency rate than electric cars. So theoretical if you use the same amount of FF for the energy production and use that for electric cars it would be more efficient. But that shouldnt be the solution.

thepiguy ,

Recently my parents got a car for emergency situations (like dropping my sister to school when busses are cancelled and she can’t bike because of rain). And when I did the research for a car with them, I realised just how good cars with sub 1L engines are (3-4l per 100km in the city). Sure, they are not gonna be fast, but they are still faster than the speed limit of 120km/h on our highways here. I am personally hoping to buy a rx8 or a na miata soon for enthusiast reasons. Modern transport should be 100% public.

Edit: grammar and spelling

KpntAutismus ,

if public transport is a valid alternative (cheaper, less crowded, more comfortable) i will use it. but currenly it is not. so i will drive my 1st gen yaris 1.0. besides 70€ of gas a month, there ate no other operation costs.

Discombobulated_Back ,

You fotgot taxes, repair and insurance costs…

yetAnotherUser ,

You don’t factor in:

  • tires
  • oil changes
  • repairing broken parts
  • insurance
  • the loss of value over time
KpntAutismus ,

fair points, a 1 litre car like this which is considered very safe basically costs nothing to ensure. i mainly forgot because it’s technically part of a company fleet of a family member, and they just pay the minescule bill.

it is a toyota. there are no broken parts.

i am not planning to sell it, it was already worth less than 1500€

oil doesn’t really cost much either, especially because i change it myself.

tires last really long and if you buy slightly used ones from someone who sold their car you can save a lot of money.

yetAnotherUser ,

Well, then there’s also a bunch of other stuff I didn’t mention:

  • cleaning the car costs a little every now and thrn because you mustn’t do it in your driveway
  • speeding tickets and other violations occur depending on how well you abide by the rules
  • TÜV et al. cost a little every few years
  • some parts may break due to bad luck - even Toyota cannot prevent stone chips on your windshield

There are a lot of small hidden costs which all add up, even on cheap cars.

KpntAutismus ,

which is all true. and that is the cost i’m willing to pay to drive my car. if you think you can not afford to drive a car, don’t.

PeriodicallyPedantic ,

We will never consumer our way of of a problem capitalism created. And public transit is nearly always a better solution to spending on car infrastructure.

… but… If you’re gonna buy a new car anyway, they have the potential to cause less climate impact (although they’re still environmentally devastating in other ways). As power generation becomes cleaner, so too do the cars. ICE cars are already about as environmentally friendly as they’re gonna get, but EVs still have a lot of potential improvement (both in emissions and in things like material mining).

Although the tire microplastics is gonna get worse.

GenesisJones ,

They already do cause less of an impact than ICE powered cars. Anyone can Google the information that shows that even though battery production is unclean, fossil fuel production over the life of a car is worse.

If the EV last for more than about 5 years, it was worth it.

ArcaneSlime ,

…except not, how rich are you that buying a new car every 5yr is viable?! I need longer than “about 5yr!”

I know that’s not what you meant but it made me chuckle.

Gasandthefuhrerious ,

Some people are also forced by their job to lease a new car every 4 years.

It so bad that I cant even lease a 400km old car from 2022 … No I had to have a new one and if I dont want a car I need to find i different job.

Shit’s fucking dumb.

ArcaneSlime ,

Jeez, buncha moneybags around here that don’t like a joke, huh?

What job forces people to lease new cars? Sounds like the job should be providing them if it’s gonna be like that, like they do with cell phones they require you to use as “work phones.”

Gasandthefuhrerious ,

It is like that, it isnt so much a personal issue as I can run the car as much as I want.

Its more of a “we want to be good for the environment… But everyone needs a new car. And its mandatory”

Saganastic ,

I don't understand it either, but still, there is a very active used car market these days. It's not like those 5 year old cars are getting thrown in the dump.

But like you said, it's not what the original poster meant. That's just the cutoff for when it is less environmentally harmful than an ICE car.

GenesisJones ,

That’s the break even point for the environmental benefits to overtake production negatives for evs…what the fuck are you talking about? Of course they last longer then that that’s my fucking point you dipshit

ArcaneSlime , (edited )

If the EV last for more than about 5 years, it was worth it.

This is the crux of the joke, the joke being that I am too poor to afford a car every five years, which subverts the expectation of “what you were actually talking about.”

I even said “I know that isn’t what you meant but it made me chuckle.” You really didn’t get the joke?

That says more about you being a dipshit than it does me, frankly, considering I literally told you it was a joke.

Also you’re rude.

Toadiwithaneye ,

5 Years… This is part of the problem… What happens to this car after 5 years, it gets “recycled”. The metal does and the rest goes into a landfill to gas off. Micro plastics are just part of it, the gasses are a major polluter too. The reason you can own and keep your old car is that they were built to last, our current disposable society is the problem. Electric cars are dirty! Let go dig massive hole in the desert, lets separate the wanted materials out with lovely chemicals, then we can throw it all away. So clean… Right to repair, build to last, and strong public transport is the way to go.

Pandemanium ,

No one is recycling still-working cars after only 5 years. Unless you’re talking about insurance deciding to salvage a vehicle after a wreck, which is a different story. Even those don’t always get destroyed, some are parted out and some are probably shipped overseas to get a second life.

Toadiwithaneye ,

New cars are cheaply made, with parts that sold in modules (parts attached to other parts) and are by far more expensive then their older counterparts. They also have been engineered to be a pain for mechanics to work on, they are no longer built to last or be repair friendly. Many parts are engineered with fasteners that break when you remove them, not making them friendly to being parted out. As for EV’s they are a dirty bandaid to a dirty problem, the batteries alone are, made with rare earth metals lithium, manganese and cobalt. These are all pulled out of the earth using chemicals to separate the materials, these mining areas may never fully recover the impact is huge. We still do not have the technology to recycle them, they just like plastics are not fully recyclable. We could build an affordable, repair friendly car that would be a great trade in for Dads old beater, but that wouldn’t get you into a New Ford Crapbox Deluxe.

GenesisJones ,

You need help with reading comprehension and deductive reasoning

Toadiwithaneye ,

So cars are not cheaply made, nor are they unfriendly to repair. The experiences that my family members and I, who have worked on repairing cars is a mass delusion. Not to mention those delusional mechanics that have shared their stories. Everything is recyclable, mines are clean and beautiful. Is that better. Lets be happy!

MrSqueezles ,

Phew! My electric car made it five years, right to the theoretical break even point with a gas car. What will I do now? Keep driving it? No, I have a better idea. Drive it off of a cliff and go buy a new one. Yep, I love throwing money away for no reason.

Toadiwithaneye ,

That is not what I said, but good job taking care of you toy car.

KaleDaddy ,

A well worded nuanced take on Lemmy? Where am I?

bob ,

Yeah but by the time some of that potential is realised, your brand new EV is now a few years old and almost worthless cos the batteries are next to useless.

SuperIce ,

Modern EV batteries last for over a decade and still retain most of their original capacity even after a few hundred thousand miles.

mvirts ,

Yeah but they’re way more fun to drive

tdawg ,

God damn these comments

Custoslibera OP ,

Which ones?

Gormadt ,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Honestly didn’t take too long to find a lot of people taking this take in the least generous way possible.

And who can forget the “I commute 50 miles each way I can’t use any alternatives” folks as well who seem to think that the better future means absolutely no cars.

It means better alternatives to everyone having to own a car and take a car everywhere.

ArcaneSlime ,

Tbh that should be expected. It’s always easier to convince someone to use an option that already exists and is observably better than their current situation than it is to convince them to support a theoretical change that will take place in the future if we inconvenience them now. That’s just how “humans” work.

Custoslibera OP ,

It’s to be expected I suppose.

Too many people think upgrading their car to electric is ‘doing their part’ but when they are replacing a vehicle less than 5 years old with an electric car they also intend to replace within 5 years, they haven’t helped anything.

Also people don’t want to feel like the action they took is actually unhelpful.

They like greenwashing and want to feel good about their choices. Applying critical analysis to a complex problem like climate change is hard compared to buying a Tesla.

Gormadt ,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Straight up my car is 16 years old at this point and I plan to drive it until the wheels fall off

Do I want a different car with different features? Yup.

Will I buy a new car? Fuck no, I’ll buy a used car and do the same: drive it until the wheels falls off.

Saganastic ,

I sort of agree with you, but at the same time the wealthy are always the earliest adopters for expensive new technology. Them buying overpriced luxury cars helps subsidize the development of the tech for the rest of us. And when they switch to a new car in 5 years it adds more stock to the used car market for people that can't afford the cutting edge but still want to own an EV.

Meowoem ,

It’s an interesting one, a lot of people really do seem to be arguing cars shouldn’t exist which is absolutely insane, likewise there are people who have the equally hairbrained idea that cars are the only option for any journey.

There is no doubt at all that fleet managed self-driving electric cars are at some point going to be a vital part of all transport networks, the efficiency and utility is far higher than any other potential option. Lithium batteries can be recycled endlessly and the construction process can be powered from renewables so long term we’re going to get to a point where the ecological impact is negligible.

Of course we should be using other options where appropriate but we don’t have a magic wand so we need the utility of small personal transport, if we’re going to start switching off oil production systems then we’re going to need those vehicles to run on electric - the more we shift to electric the better the support and industrial infrastructure gets and the more refined the technology becomes.

saigot ,

If the better future has cars then those cars should be electric (or hydrogen ig)

hoshikarakitaridia ,

Well it’s a two start program.

  • All of the citizens buy an electric vehicle
  • The government produces clean energy

So it shifts the responsibility onto the government.

ErwinLottemann ,

where are you from that your government produces your electricity?

Meowoem ,

I mean I lot of countries have national owned power generation, it’s certainly upto the government what gets built where.

FARTYSHARTBLAST ,
@FARTYSHARTBLAST@kbin.social avatar

laughs in bicycle

Custoslibera OP ,

The bicycle is one of humans greatest achievements.

thepiguy ,

Certified best transport in the world!! Combining it with public bikes and busses/trams/trains allows me to go anywhere I want to.

Zealousideal_Fox900 ,

Hell yeah! Ride to the tram, park and then come back and ride home. Awesome.

RaoulDook ,

Except when it rains or snows

Peddlephile ,

Rain is no problem for me. It feels kind of liberating.

Snow… I’ve never ridden in snow. I propose dog sledding as a substitute.

FARTYSHARTBLAST ,
@FARTYSHARTBLAST@kbin.social avatar

Bikes work just fine in rain or snow, you just need to be prepared for the weather.

RaoulDook ,

Haha you can keep that for yourself, I will pass on that.

I have rain gear to wear on my motorcycle too. It is capable of driving in the rain and snow, but I always prefer not to since I have a car.

EvolvedTurtle ,

I think electric cars address climate change Once we stop using coal and gas powerplants

Cause then all we are doing is shifting it

AngryMulbear ,

Only if we go balls deep on Nuclear

southsamurai ,
@southsamurai@sh.itjust.works avatar

Mmmm, spicy sexy times indeed.

Crashumbc ,

Looks at state of world…

Oh we’re going balls deep in Nuclear my friend. Just not the kind you’re talking about.

ChaoticNeutralCzech ,

That’s not a huge problem. Chernobyl and Five Kilometer Island were old reactor designs, and Fukushima mostly sustained an earthquake+tsunami (it would fully succeed under better corporation oversight)

baggachipz ,

Not true. Large-scale power plants are WAY more efficient at turning fossil fuels into work than internal combustion engines. Even if all electric car power was generated by coal (it’s not, almost half of electricity generation now is nuclear + renewables), electric cars would still have net emissions that are half of gas cars.

Meowoem ,

It’s a process that is absolutely underway and making great progress, even the USA now generatea more from solar than from coal, many countries like Scotland are already producing over 90% of their electrical use from renewables with only 2% from fossil fuels.

It’s worth noting too that these numbers are only grid based usage and a lot of solar is direct use, often being stored in an electric car rather than sold to the grid - with rooftop solar at home and at work it would be possible to use a car without requiring any of the oil extraction, transport and refining faculties. I don’t know how many people it would take using solar cars before a single oil well goes untapped but I do know if we get to a point where no one is using gas stations then that’ll be an awfull lot of horrible polluting infrastructure we don’t need, just carrying the fuel through wires instead of in tanker lorries is a huge saving alone.

eltimablo ,

Oh look, another anti-car meme from someone who clearly doesn't understand cars. Keep it up, Lemmy. One day your relentless negativity will achieve something, and I'll laugh all the way to my grave because it'll be the exact opposite of what y'all wanted.

Custoslibera OP ,

Hmmm what future do I want?

eltimablo ,

Whatever it is, being smug, sour, and ignorant about it is going to get people to oppose you on principle alone.

Custoslibera OP ,

Sounds like a lot of assumptions on your part about what I think.

eltimablo ,

I'm referring to the meme you posted, but ok. My statement also applies regardless of topic, so I don't know what to tell you.

Meowoem ,

I’m guessing a weird and impossible one if you don’t accept the obvious benefits of electric cars

thepiguy ,

But you understand cars right? Pray tell, what is wrong about this post. We all obviously need your divine knowledge, ofc which I presume will also have cited sources right.

eltimablo ,

Bike 45 miles each way to work and tell me it's still a viable solution for everyone, everywhere.

Try to build a rail network that adequately covers 3.8 million square miles without driving your country into blinding debt.

Tell me that I need to haul a cello that I value more than my own life in the rain.

Squeeze enough groceries for a family of four to eat for a week into bicycle saddlebags.

But as I mentioned elsewhere, the more smug and sour you act, the more the average person is going to oppose you simply because you're an absolutely insufferable asshole. Then again, if you had social skills, you probably wouldn't be here in the first place because you'd have friends (and maybe a fucking clue).

Go eat uranium, you smug piece of shit.

thepiguy ,
  1. 72km is indeed a long distance, but by using bike for travel does not mean using bike to go from your house to your destination unlike how a lot of people think. My usual route (30km) is bike 1km to a bus station where I get on my bus, it takes me almost all the way to my destination. From there, I either get off at a stop which is a 12 minute walk to my destination, if I have plans to travel with my friends who live in the area, or I go to the city center where I take a bus. I do know someone who has to travel 115KM (71 miles) to work, but they just take one train and it brings them within walking distance of their work. And if its raining, I can just walk with an umbrella, get on a tram, and go on from there. By the way, my travel is usually around €150 per month, which is a fixed cost as I have a monthly subscription for the travel. It would be around €500 I think for my friend.
  2. Assuming you are from USA because of miles. A rail network does not need to be placed on every inch of your land. Public transport follows a hierarchy, same as your roads. You don’t have your interstate network taking you to every little corner now do you? Trains are similar. Trains connect major cities. Metro connects up the suburbs and all the distant yet important areas and busses and trams and bikes are for local transport. As for the cost, according to reports from 2016, the total infrastructure costs for rail networks in the EU were €80 billion, while the same for road networks was about €184 billion. Source Am I saying these numbers are conclusive? Absolutely not, European countries in general have prioritised better public transport infrastructure for a long time, and fixing existing infrastructure is a huge undertaking, one which requires a lot of manpower and expert engineers.
  3. And how are you getting this cello in your car? Also, renting a van to use when moving is pretty cheap if you didn’t know! No need to pay quarterly taxes and if the person before you was kind enough, you don’t even need to pay for fuel (although you should leave rented cars with the fuel you got it with). Don’t tell me you trust 16 year olds who just got their license to not hit your car when you are transporting something worth more than your life in the rain.
  4. Actually, most families in the Netherlands already do that. We use bakfiets here.
  5. Maybe you should go talk to your friends or something, have a beer maybe. Walk to the local pub and- oh wait, my bad, I forgot that walking to someplace probably will be lethal where you come from with all those cars. Try to be a bit more positive. And you did not answer my question either, just started insulting me, which was very uncalled for I should say. Its like shooting a man because he stole a $5 sandwich from your store. Anyways, I hope this answer clears your doubts regarding my views on your questions, and I do hope to actually get my question answered instead of getting more stupid questions and insults.
spauldo ,

Guess I’ll keep pouring lead additive into my '65 Galaxie, then. Woo! 10 miles per gallon!

Custoslibera OP ,

If you can, use public transport and ride a bike.

If you can’t, using the same private vehicle for a long time, while not ideal, is acceptable.

Buying a brand new electric car to replace a relatively new ICE is not a great solution.

cerevant ,

No doubt your logic is based on the carbon footprint of two cars - the old ice and the new BEV.

Where that logic falls down is the old ICE becomes a more affordable efficient used car that can replace an older ICE that it blowing blue smoke. Further, new BEV become used BEV in a few years. Used BEV are becoming quite affordable and cost effective. They are also far outlasting their projected battery life.

Finally, demand for BEV increases R&D on more efficient storage technologies that are cheaper and have a smaller environmental footprint.

Yes, more and better public transport should be a thing. But the US is just too big - and in many cases too empty - for ubiquitous public transport to be cost or environmentally efficient.

Custoslibera OP ,

I disagree strongly about the US not being suitable for public transport.

There are large cities that could introduce effective metro services and that would be a vast improvement.

Rural areas can remain ICE/BEV.

TigrisMorte ,

Show me one State, just a single one, where the majority of Cities have functional mass transit across the entire City which does not take five or six times what a personal vehicle going straight there takes. I'll wait.

Custoslibera OP ,

The fact that the implementation of public transport is poor is not a criticism of public transport.

JustAManOnAToilet ,

After the pandemic you want me to share a big box with a load of strangers? Nope.

TigrisMorte ,

No it is an explanation of why the suggestion that it was an option is untenable. Which of course is why at no point did I criticize it.

Nobsi ,
@Nobsi@feddit.de avatar

In the US everything is rural. Did you ever see a map of it?

HeartyBeast ,
@HeartyBeast@kbin.social avatar

Buying a brand new electric car to replace a relatively new ICE is not a great solution.

That is absolutely sound.

However and if the cartoon said that, it would be fine

Custoslibera OP ,

I stand by what I said.

We should have less private transport regardless of if it’s electric or ICE.

Arguably action on climate change warrants a significant reduction in car use generally to stop our extinction.

eltimablo ,

Bikes count as private transport. You wanna take those away too?

Custoslibera OP ,

No I don’t.

In that context private transport meant cars.

HeartyBeast ,
@HeartyBeast@kbin.social avatar

I'm in London. I cycle to work and use the tube network and bus network whenever I can. I also have a private car which I use for trips where public transport or my bike is impractical. It's a 2016 model, I expect that it may need replacing in 5 years time. If I took the cartoon at face value, I might think it makes no difference from a climate chang perspective whether I choose petrol or electric - and this is clearly wrong.

eltimablo ,

If I took the cartoon at face value, I might think it makes no difference from a climate chang perspective whether I choose petrol or electric - and this is clearly wrong.

That's ok, OP will just block you for making a valid point that doesn't align with whatever is written on the inside of his colon.

Custoslibera OP ,

It really depends on the new model of car you choose to replace your outgoing one.

This was the website that I have been thinking of:

www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore

You can see some electric cars are far worse than a hybrid as an example.

ErwinLottemann ,

you can also see that there are only a few hybrid vehicles a bit better than bev, and bev are overall ‘better’ in this diagram?

in fact - if you filter by vehicle class you see that bev are always ‘better’ in their respective class than hybrid or ice. you can’t compare a bev suv with a midsize hybrid.

Nobsi ,
@Nobsi@feddit.de avatar

Do you also see the amount of carbon to the left? That isnt total. Its per mile. You cannot even read the diagram and then you claim switching to evs is bad…

southsamurai ,
@southsamurai@sh.itjust.works avatar

The problem for us country fuckers is that cars take a beating. Then you run into a lack of parts to keep a good car that’s just old going in good trim. My car is a 2007, and I’m already running into trouble with some parts. Well, that and the fact that I let my dad drive it, and he seems to attract idiot drivers that want to hit him, so even new parts won’t always fit, which is double frustrating.

And it isn’t like we have reliable public transport as an alternative. We do have a bus line, if you don’t mind taking two hours just to get to a grocery store, standing around in southern humidity and heat, and then walking a quarter mile from the stop to the store. Which, if you’re also disabled, good luck on that last part along a crappy road with a nasty ditch. Don’t even try that in a wheelchair lol. My buddy, spider, had to get his scooter hauled out of that ditch when he tried to save gas money by using the bus.

But, yeah, the whole idea of cars as disposable to a degree has gotta stop. They’re tools, not ego extensions.

eltimablo ,

That would require OP being capable of nuance.

HeartyBeast ,
@HeartyBeast@kbin.social avatar

Indeed.

TigrisMorte ,

Reality is very few People can afford to replace their car every few Years.

TigrisMorte ,

Public transport takes 3.5 hours for my daily commute each way. Personal vehicle is 45 minutes.

A bike is going to get you killed in numerous parts of the Country. Here the massive pick ups that have never hauled more than a sack of groceries take sharing the road with bicycles as a very personal insult.

Depends upon the old one, (huge difference between 12-18 MPG and an EV), and what is done with the it after doesn't it?

I suspect you swallowed a lot of Corpo propaganda to believe the issue is the common individual's actions.
https://theconversation.com/the-carbon-footprint-was-co-opted-by-fossil-fuel-companies-to-shift-climate-blame-heres-how-it-can-serve-us-again-183566
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-mobils-messaging-shifted-blame-for-warming-to-consumers/
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220504-why-the-wrong-people-are-blamed-for-climate-change
just a few to get your deprogramming started.

saigot ,

If you can’t, using the same private vehicle for a long time, while not ideal, is acceptable.

The typical breakeven point for an ev (when carbon emissions saved overtake emissions produced by its production) is around 30k kilometers. That’s excluding potential downstream emissions saved by the old ice being sold second hand. I don’t think even very wealthy people are getting rid of their cars so soon.

Nobsi ,
@Nobsi@feddit.de avatar

My brother in christ are you dense? No. Parking the 65 Galaxy and buying a new ev is most definitely better than driving it. 10 miles to the gallon is horrendous.

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