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umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

democratic is a bit of a stretch though

jaybone ,

What kind of ship?

Noodle07 ,

Hardship most likely

muad_dibber ,
@muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml avatar

I need to make a bot to post this any time fascism gets mentioned.

The western left’s use of the term fascism, is borderline white-supremacist at this point. Fascism was a form of colonialism that died by the 1940s, and is only allowed to be demonized in public discourse, because it was a form of colonialism directed also against white europeans. It was defeated, and Germany / Italy / Japan reverted to the more stable form of government for colonialism (practiced by the US, UK, France, the Netherlands, Australia, etc): bourgeois parliamentarism.

British, european, and now US colonizers were doing the exact same thing, and killing far more people for hundreds of years in the global south, yet you don’t hear ppl scared of their countries potentially "adopting parliamentary democracy”. They haven’t changed, and their wealth is still propped up by surplus value theft from the super-exploitation of hundreds of millions of low-paid global south proletarians.

This is why you have new leftists terrified that the UK or US or europe “might turn fascist!!”, betraying that the atrocities propagated by those empires against the global south was and is completely acceptable.

Make no mistake about it: parliamentary / bourgeois democracy is not only a more stable form of government, it’s also far more effective at carrying out colonialism, and killing millions of innocent people.

flying_sheep ,
@flying_sheep@lemmy.ml avatar

Fascism is a pretty specific ideology. If you want to learn more, Umberto Eco made a list.

I get where you’re getting at: the role of past and ongoing colonialism is still being downplayed. But you’re wrong. There are very good reasons why we should fear fascism in particular.

muad_dibber ,
@muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml avatar

The USA genocided an entire continent under it’s current form of government, and committed and is still committing countless other atrocities. Look at what Europe did to Africa and Asia under that same form.

Bourgeois parliamentarism is a much more stable shell for colonialism than any other form of government has proven to be. Demonizing a dead form of colonialism (fascism) lets them off the hook, and never forces them to look at what their own governments are currently doing. They get to keep their chauvinist / supremacist myth about “liberal democracy” being the superior form of government, without challenging it.

flying_sheep ,
@flying_sheep@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes, that’s why I wrote the part after “I see what you’re getting at”

muad_dibber , (edited )
@muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml avatar

I’d also like to add that hitler was very specific about his desire to emulate the US model of colonialism: and do to eastern europe, what the US had already done to its native peoples.

The only difference between lebensraum and manifest destiny, is that bourgeois democracy was far more effective at indigenous genocide than fascism was.

slate.com/…/nazi-germanys-american-dream-hitler-m…

flying_sheep ,
@flying_sheep@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah, the Nazis weren’t really subtle. If you instead maintain a civil front inward for public support, you can wreak havoc more effectively.

That’s why fascism is a different kind of danger. It wouldn’t leech off of other places for centuries, it would explosively and directly attack internal and external enemies.

Neither of these things can be risked.

GarbageShoot ,

Eco is not a definitive authority and his little checklist is extremely ahistorical.

flying_sheep ,
@flying_sheep@lemmy.ml avatar

Source?

GarbageShoot ,

Literally just read the list. It’s not ahistorical because it gets history wrong, it’s ahistorical because it has nothing to do with history. It has no ability to explain how and why fascism emerged when it did rather than sooner or later and thereby has very little understanding of what it actually is. It’s like defining a disease by a very loose checklist of symptoms, the fundamental causality is completely absent, so there is very little you can even do with it besides make a shaky diagnosis.

Incidentally, Trump isn’t a fascist. He flirts with being a fascist and in many ways has lit the way [something something tiki torches] for future fascists, but fundamentally, he’s just doing fascist-like rhetoric as a way to sell people on relatively normal neoliberal policy. Probably the most strange thing he did was bomb Qasem Soleimani, something that Democrats didn’t even really oppose on any grounds other than it being rash, despite Soleimani being a leader in the fight against ISIS. If I had to pick a second thing, it was probably lowering military funding to South Korea, which was just him being stupid and accidentally a clearly good thing to do. He’s not harder on immigrants than Democrats, he’s not harder on China or Russia, he’s just a normal rightist wrt to queers, he likes giving tax cuts to rich people, and he’s fussy in diplomatic meetings. He had very few policies that Biden didn’t immediately perpetuate. If you want to call the whole neoliberal edifice fascist, fine, whatever, but he’s not special in anything but aesthetics.

TheDoctor ,
@TheDoctor@hexbear.net avatar

Umberto Eco completely ignores the material basis for fascism, which is usually the downwardly mobile petit bourgeoisie. Fascism takes advantage of superstructural elements, which is why Eco’s list contains the elements it does in a kind of grab bag fashion. But it still has a material basis, itself being a response to a crisis within capitalism. Would highly recommend The Jakarta Method for further reading on what people are discussing in your replies and in this thread.

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

Umberto Eco completely ignores the material basis for fascism, which is usually the downwardly mobile petit bourgeoisie.

The Nation, 2017: Trumpism: It’s Coming From the Suburbs

But scapegoating poor whites keeps the conversation away from fascism’s real base: the petite bourgeoisie. This is a piece of jargon used mostly by Marxists to denote small-property owners, whose nearest equivalents these days may be the “upper middle class” or “small-business owners.” FiveThirtyEight reported last May that “the median household income of a Trump voter so far in the primaries is about $72,000,” or roughly 130 percent of the national median. Trump’s real base, the actual backbone of fascism, isn’t poor and working-class voters, but middle-class and affluent whites. Often self-employed, possessed of a retirement account and a home as a nest egg, this is the stratum taken in by Horatio Alger stories. They can envision playing the market well enough to become the next Trump. They haven’t won “big-league,” but they’ve won enough to be invested in the hierarchy they aspire to climb. If only America were made great again, they could become the haute bourgeoisie—the storied “1 percent.”

TheDoctor ,
@TheDoctor@hexbear.net avatar

Yes, that’s what I’m talking about. Funny how Trump is a fascist no matter what definition you use.

flying_sheep ,
@flying_sheep@lemmy.ml avatar

Almost as if he is one and the definitions agree for a reason.

Barx ,

Trump isn’t a fascist. In action he is actually a pretty standard reactionary liberal. You will notice that Biden has continued the salient policies that made liberals call him a fascist, such as extreme and horrible border policies (Dems actually outflanked the GOP on this from the right), anti-China policy, and extending militarism (like maximum pressure on Russia via Ukraine).

He’s mostly just openly racist whereas the political class usually wraps itself in polite jargon bullshit before it fucks with a bunch of brown people.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

another good read on the subject www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/…/620151/

flying_sheep ,
@flying_sheep@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s not perfect, but it’s good introductory material for people who fell for the right-wing propaganda of “everybody’s called a fascist now, there isn’t even a definition”.

Yes, suckers, there are people with an understanding of what fascism is, and they agree for a reason about the dangers of things like calling people vermin, casting doubt on election integrity, and strong man rhetoric.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

A much better read on how fascism inevitably arises out of liberal capitalism …wordpress.com/…/liberalism-the-two-faced-tyranny…

PrivateNoob ,

I think calling everyone a fascist would just water down the impact of the fascist world just like the far right- or far left-wing words which nowadays are just used on more left/right parties but are kinda not close on their agenda like the 20th century parties were where these definitons came from.

But educate me if some of these countries have parties which really apply most general aspects of the fascism movement

Loulou ,

Many are populist parties, with the feeling that fascism is just waiting behind a hidden corner.

flying_sheep ,
@flying_sheep@lemmy.ml avatar

Not even slightly hidden

tranarchist OP ,
@tranarchist@lemmy.ml avatar

the guy running for chancellor in Austria (Herbert Kickl) is calling himself “Volkskanzler”, guess who also called himself that? fucking Hitler. so no, I don’t think I’m over reacting

30p87 ,

I’m calling myself human - you know who did that too? Fucking Ted.

tranarchist OP ,
@tranarchist@lemmy.ml avatar

everyone calls themself human, not everyone calls themself Führer, Reichskanzler, Volkskanzler, etc.

30p87 , (edited )

Now what is a Volkskanzler? In itself it should be a Kanzler, so a part of a democratic government, for the Volk, so the people. And I never actually heard about Hitler calling himself that, only that he was the Reichskanzler, Führer etc.

Edit:

After the end of the dictatorship, the original meaning was transferred both directly and indirectly to well-known democratic state politicians such as Ludwig Erhard and Bruno Kreisky.

So those democratic politicians are Hitlers too now?

tranarchist OP ,
@tranarchist@lemmy.ml avatar

no, they aren’t, because they were leftists trying to reclaim the word so they obviosly weren’t nazis, the people using it nowdays are far right, so it’s not really obvios wether they are nazis or not.

PrivateNoob ,

Wow dayum that definitely seem really sus.

Samvega ,

There is no careful use of language that can stop people from preferring hatred. Humans are machines for making the world worse, and they will continue to do so, and while they do it they will rationalise doing it, and while people get hurt (including themselves) they will blame the victims.

“It’s not fascism!” they complain as minorities are scapegoated and children die. Just get used to the fact that anything that is pointed entirely towards harming people for fun and profit is going to attract a range of derogatory words, and maybe think about how to stop humans from hurting humans instead.

PrivateNoob ,

Agreed, actions to save the weak and oppressed should be more important, I just worry that such words like fascist could lose it’s punching weight whenever someone could be truly a fascist. It wouldn’t have as such a backlash for that certain target.

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

Humans are machines for making the world worse

This sounds like fatalistic capitalist/imperialist realism.

Samvega ,

I will wait for humans to decide to feed hungry children.

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

Secretary General of the United Nations, 2019: Helping 800 Million People Escape Poverty Was Greatest Such Effort in History, Says Secretary-General, on Seventieth Anniversary of China’s Founding

Sop ,

Wanting to ban mosques, the quran and muslim clothing like niqabs sounds pretty fascist to me (that’s what the biggest political party in The Netherlands wants). Thinking the European far right (that is rapidly gaining grounds) isn’t fascist or fascist leaning is a wild take.

flamingo_pinyata ,

Unfortunately most leftist parties in Europe suffer from the paradox of tolerance. And rightists are hypocritical in opposing Islam but supporting Christianity. There’s nobody anti-islamic who’s not a fascist, which is ironic since in some ways they are quite similar, and both are harmful to humanity.

(And to make it clear before you accuse me of being fascist, I oppose the currently dominant version of Islam which is not separable from politics, and which insists on actual belief in god and quran. Once it becomes a weakly held cultural category like Christianity in most of Europe I’ll be fine with it)

HenriVolney ,

“There’s nobody anti-islamic who’s not a fascis”

I’m sorry but you can be violently anti-religion without being a fascist. Considering religions for what they are - a way to dominate the people by fear anddesinformation - does not mean that you are going to prevent people from practicing their religion. You are just making damn sure they don’t advocate them in public schools, hospitals and administrations.

flamingo_pinyata , (edited )

I’m sorry but you can be violently anti-religion without being a fascist.

Yes, that was exactly my point. I’m complaining that in the current political scene there are no parties that separate those ideas.
And yes, banning the public display will only make it go underground and become stronger, this is why it’s so important to separate anti-religion from fascism.

supertrucker ,

Actually, no you can’t. What you are doing is substituting your political beliefs for your religious ones, and that at its core is what separates a facist from any other political belief system

HenriVolney ,

Not if you don’t infringe on people’s right to practice

Sop ,

Where in Europe do you consider islam to be more than a ‘cultural category like Christianity’? Most European countries have large Christian conservative political parties that are preventing trans people from getting the medical care they need and women from having ownership of their bodies when they’re pregnant.

As a trans person fundamentalist Christians are a much bigger threat to me than fundamentalist muslims. I experience solidarity from muslims who know what it’s like to be marginalised and discriminated against. There are muslim people who would like to restrict my determination over my own body, but there are way more Christians in my country who would like to do the same and they pose and actual threat to me.

PrivateNoob ,

Well it could be a fascist, but nevertheless on which category they are really in, it’s really awful for doing this

IndianaJones ,

An example, a Dutch minister for the biggest party (PVV, in my opinion (very close to being) a facist party) was an active member on an internet forum called Stormfront which is known to be a forum for neo-nazis

PrivateNoob ,

Jesus Christ, didn’t he resign from his role after the backlash?

IndianaJones ,

Nope, it became public news somewhere in June iirc and she (Fleur Agema) is now Deputy Prime Minister.

Fucking awesome 👍

PrivateNoob ,

Even the Netherlands is affected by non-consequence scenarios. Please west EU, don’t turn into Hungary, I need to escape to a decent country please.

knatschus ,

A few of the AFD highlights

Member of the Bundestag suggested to shoot every migrant at the border.

Another one claimed not every SS member was a bad person. Which lost them the support of French and Italian fascist.

Leader of the party in Thüringen, a history teacher, used a slogan of the SA.

There is many more…

pimeys ,

Yeah. Scary stuff. I live in central Berlin, and it’s pretty relaxed here. Did the Mauerlauf last weekend and immediately when you cross the Brandenburg border to some of these villages, they’re full of AfD advertisement. Berlin is definitely the Portland of Germany :D

PrivateNoob ,

You’ve won. Certified fascistmaxxers there.

jaybone ,

This started with “the war on terror.” And then any time there was anything someone didn’t like, it was “terrorism.”

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

if calling it what it is waters it down so be it

rbesfe ,

“if using a word improperly muddies it’s definition, so be it”

Are you anti dictionary or something?

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

the fact you are in denial doesnt make the latest fascist wave any less fascist.

Draedron ,

Germany definitely counts. The AfD is above 20%, in some states they might even govern alone. They probably will be part of the next government after the next election and they definitely are fascist.

PrivateNoob ,

It’s mind boggling how a suspiciously nazi friendly party can get so many votes. Doesn’t Germany have some serious anti-nazi laws written into it’s constitution, or is that treated like a joke too like in Hungary?

HairyHarry ,

Where’s italy?

EherNicht ,

Italy should actually be in the front

alcoholicorn ,

Milei, Meloni, and Orban already ran by the cameraman.

tranarchist OP ,
@tranarchist@lemmy.ml avatar

they already are fascist, so no reason for them to run towards it, also they’re included in the EU

Viking_Hippie ,

also they’re included in the EU

So’s Germany, France, and Latvia Austria. AKA everyone pictured except the US.

tranarchist OP ,
@tranarchist@lemmy.ml avatar

tbh I was just too lazy to insert every european flag, so I just put the EU one there and the countries I know some politicsl shit about

Viking_Hippie ,

That’s fair 😁

gnutrino ,

Italy’s taking the picture

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