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Mr_Fish ,

There are four options for American voters: vote red, vote blue, vote third party, or don’t vote at all.

Voting red is just bad. I highly doubt that the Gaza situation would get any better if Trump gets in, but I know for a fact that a lot of things will get much worse.

Voting third party is a wasted effort. Sure, every sane person would prefer different people to run America, but the the shit fptp system means they’ll never get any traction. In another election voting third party could be worth it, since a third party might slowly get more support, but not this one.

Not voting is just pointless. That’s just choosing to not impact anything.

That only leaves voting blue. It’s not great, but it’s the only option left.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

This all hangs on the false assumption in the third statement.

Diplomjodler3 ,

Soll explain to us how voting for any third party would change anything for the better.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

They don’t support Genocide.

Explain how voting for Democrat would change anything for the better instead.

Diplomjodler3 ,

So preserving your imaginary moral superiority is your only goal. Right. Gotcha.

bamboo ,

Say you don’t know how the US electoral college works without saying you don’t know how the US electoral college works.

Cephalotrocity ,

This astute logic brought to you by a person that thinks insulting the people they need the support of is a good idea.

zeppo ,
@zeppo@lemmy.world avatar

It’s weird how we can try to explain this to people for months straight and they’re still posting stupid memes about it.

riodoro1 ,

It’s weird how you call your country a democracy but are forced to make choices you’re not at all comfortable with.

greedytacothief ,

Umm, I don’t. We’re a Republic, always have been.

UrPartnerInCrime ,

Weird how you generalize all people based on the propaganda you’ve seen

Tar_alcaran ,

Because they have a LOT of money riding on convincing people not to vote blue. Gee, I wonder who benefits from that most.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I highly doubt that the Gaza situation would get any better if Trump gets in, but I know for a fact that a lot of things will get much worse.

What would Trump do that the Dems are not already doing? Trump would be a genocidal monster, yes, but we have DNC goers literally mocking Pro-Palestinian protestors and covering their ears:

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/af1bd9c7-b470-4d56-9e58-7ae5c9186f34.jpeg

There are four options for American voters: vote red, vote blue, vote third party, or don’t vote at all.

Nope, there are an infinite number of options. If a math question is “what number is greater than 10?” And the Dems said 4 and the Reps said 2, that doesn’t mean the Dems are correct. Voting will not save us, so we must move outside the realm of electoralism. Join an org, build up dual power, replace the DNC and GOP by force.

danciestlobster ,

Maybe this is overly wishful thinking, but I do think there is enough data analysis on how people vote that it could be real: if a large body of people with a history of voting blue vote in this election and vote blue down the ballot but omit the president, or have a third party for the president instead, then that might actually send a message to the Democrats that they are fucking up their candidate selection badly, and make them at least marginally more likely to cater to the left when choosing candidates in the future.

That said I am not sure I can condone this tactic in good faith in this particular election given the alternative, but part of me feels like the right will perpetually have more and more abhorrent alternatives and there needs to be a line somewhere, and if it’s not at genocide then I honestly don’t know where it is.

No matter how you look at it all the options are bad. At least Tim being slightly left of Kamala shows Democrats slightly more willing to negotiate with disenfranchised left voters than chasing nebulous farther right independents. Not left enough to condemn genocide though so a very minor distinction

skvlp ,

This is a false choice fallacy done in bad faith. Nobody is voting in favour of the genocide by voting for the democrats.

pixeltree ,
@pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Yeah, time to filter lemmy.ml. ah well

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Do you disagree with the idea that the “lesser evil” has been getting steadily more evil?

skvlp ,

Yes, I do actually. There’s no denying that they have a long way to go, they at least seem to be trying to push in a better and more positive direction. And, yes, there are of course bad people among democrats as well. In an ideal world I’d rather have some other party to throw my support behind, but with the fptp duopoly the democrats are, by far, the best choice.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

How are they moving in a positive trend?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Kamala has promised to keep supplying weapons for the Genocide. There’s no denying it anymore.

skvlp ,

Which presidential candidate won’t?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Claudia De La Cruz

skvlp ,

She’s in the presidential election, but she’s not a presidential candidate when she’s on the ballot in 9 states.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

You can write her in, can’t you?

skvlp ,

In 3 states.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Increasing over time.

skvlp ,

In a better world it would be awesome to have her as a realistic candidate. But the shitty deal is that we probably have make it a better word first.

skvlp ,

First past the post with electoral college has to be replaced.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

How do you suggest we go about doing that?

skvlp ,

Republicans use every chance they get to change the system in their favour. Republican rule will make it harder for anybody but them to win an election - even more so for candidates from outside of the duopoly.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Strange you’re not saying Democrats to the same thing.

Cowbee , (edited )
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

You didn’t answer my question in any capacity. The Democrats don’t want to get rid of FPTP because they would lose.

Seems like you have no plan, you’re sleepwalking your way through and going to brunch.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

How do you suggest we make a better world?

Xatolos ,
@Xatolos@reddthat.com avatar

So did Trump.

Trump, who routinely touts his support of Israel more broadly, has reportedly said he supports Israel in its continued “war on terror” after the October 7 attack by Hamas.

This part always seems to be forgotten every time this comes up. Voting for Trump won’t suddenly stop it. He’ll either send just as much or more.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Look at the text on the bottom left of the meme

KoboldCoterie ,
@KoboldCoterie@pawb.social avatar

So, what course of action are you proposing? Vote Trump? Vote 3rd party? Don’t vote?

What’s your intended / expected outcome?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Voting 3rd party is a great idea. One that doesn’t support Genocide that is.

KoboldCoterie ,
@KoboldCoterie@pawb.social avatar

A normally blue voter voting 3rd party is indirectly helping Trump win the election. Do you think Trump’s Israel policy is going to be better than Harris’s?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Trump will be the same on israel. Are you going to reward the Democrats for 10 months of Genocide?

KoboldCoterie ,
@KoboldCoterie@pawb.social avatar

Well, I’m not a single-issue voter.

I’m not rewarding them for anything, but I accept that it’s possible to oppose one policy a politician has, even a very important one, and at the same time support a lot of other policies they have, while also vehemently opposing almost all policies that their opponent supports, and make my choice based on that information.

Based on this post, you seem to be a single-issue voter, though, so I’m trying to understand what you’re hoping the outcome is. You acknowledge that a vote that supports Trump, even indirectly, is not helping the people of Gaza, so why would you vote against your own self-interests? What’s your goal?

If your goal is to show opposition to what’s happening in Gaza, there’s much more effective ways to do that. Get out there and protest - the protests at the DNC are getting a lot of news coverage, that’s where your activism could actually make a difference. Not here.

tobogganablaze ,

The guys is just a trump/maga shill who exploits the suffering in Gaza to attack the democratic party. That’s all he every posts about. Don’t waste your time.

KoboldCoterie ,
@KoboldCoterie@pawb.social avatar

I don’t think it’s a waste of time. Even if I can’t convince him specifically, there are other people reading these posts. If someone came to this thread who was less sure, and I can change their mind, that’s good enough for me.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Would you be a single-issue voter if you were the victim of Genocide?

The outcome is the Democrats stop committing Genocide or they don’t get votes. “But Trump” isn’t even an argument.

KoboldCoterie , (edited )
@KoboldCoterie@pawb.social avatar

If I were the victim of genocide, I wouldn’t be a voter at all, because I’d be dead. However, that’s kind of irrelevant - are you the victim of genocide? I’m assuming not, if you’re voting in the US election. Even if you’re Palestinian, your people are the victim of genocide, but unless you’re in Palestine, you aren’t.

That said, if you are Palestinian, I feel for you, I honestly do, and it would explain your view somewhat.

I think we can both agree that there’s only two outcomes that’re possible in this election: Trump wins, or Harris wins. (If you don’t agree, I’d be happy to hear your third outcome.) If you truly believe there’s no difference between the two of them, you need to do some research on the topic, because there are a lot of differences, even if they don’t pertain to this issue specifically.

If, between the two of them, you hope Harris wins, a 3rd party vote is voting against your interests. If you hope Trump wins between the two of them, a 3rd party vote is still voting against your interests, because you’re effectively taking a vote away from your preferred candidate among the two who could possibly win.

Edit to respond to your edit:

The outcome is the Democrats stop committing Genocide or they don’t get votes. “But Trump” isn’t even an argument.

Unless you’re out there protesting, or writing letters, or making phone calls, or in some way letting them know that their policy is costing them your vote, it’s a useless gesture. Posting on Lemmy isn’t going to change any politician’s minds. It’s not even going to change anyone’s mind here, in all likelihood. If you actually want to make a difference, you need to make your voice heard by the people whose minds you’re actually trying to change.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Not every victim of Genocide is killed. Any person who was put in a concentration camp by Hitler, or even persecuted, was a victim of the Holocaust. Similarly any person in Gaza is the victim of a Genocide. And you don’t have to be a Palestinian to empathise with people.

Your scope of analysis is limited to 4 years. There’s no long term analysis. If people vote for Genocide it will cement that Democrats can get away with anything if they fearmonger hard enough.

When people threaten to withhold votes for a Genocide they have to follow through or all the leverage falls away. It’s a game of chicken now.

FutileRecipe ,

It’s a game of chicken now.

And if you’re not scared of a convicted felon who promises to be a dictator on day one and has the Supreme Court in his pocket who granted him immunity as well as a cult like following who stormed the Capitol to attempt an insurrection yet who also praises dictators and salutes their generals and has nothing to lose getting ahold of the Presidency then I don’t know what to tell ya. But sure, let’s play chicken with the saner and lesser of the two evils and help MAGA win.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

We’ve heard this one in 2016. The duopoly will not allow the facade to end. There will be elections in 2028.

FutileRecipe ,

We’ve heard this one in 2016.

He was a convicted felon who had the Supreme Court in his pocket who granted him immunity as well as an attempted insurrection in his honor and he saluted hostile generals?

I don’t remember if he promised to be a dictator on day one or had already praised dictators back then, so I’ll grant you that one out of…everything else he’s done since then which was not covered in 2016.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/3a5dfed0-47de-47f0-8df8-5da76dc1b24d.png

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/4c1e67a4-a6d9-42bc-994e-65d6c27db614.png

Trump was not just going to install a Fascist regime but commit a Genocide on all Mexicans and Arabs and start nuclear WW3. In the end he built a worthless border wall and a did Muslim ban that got overturned rather quickly.

Collective amnesia amongst Democrats appears to have wiped all the memories of previous Trump fearmongering away. There’s room for fresh new fearmongering again.

I don’t care about Trumps felony convictions of him bribing a porn star. Biden and Harris should face trial in the Hague for literal Genocide.

Cephalotrocity ,

Do you hear yourself? You even point out he implemented a Muslim ban. Clearly, the side you should be supporting. No reason to think otherwise. Nope.

shiftymccool ,

OK, I’ll bite. Trump wins. Give your “long term analysis”

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Democrats won’t do Genocide in 2028 if they win then because they have now learnt they can’t get away with literally anything by feamongering.

Democrats can’t just say they’re “not Trump”. They have to be “not Trump”.

shiftymccool , (edited )

4 years? That’s your idea of “long term”? You honestly think losing one election will teach anybody anything? How the fuck will they know what lesson to learn when they lose? As other commenters have said, their are other issues the two parties disagree on. How will they know what one to blame for losing?

On the other hand, pubs are learning that they can run a convicted felon that promises a dictatorship if he wins. Yeah, let’s set that precedent…

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Already proven. They dropped Biden because they knew they would get Hillary2016’d if they didn’t. Democrats only seem to learn their lesson the hard way.

Heard the dictator shtick in 2016 try something new.

shiftymccool ,

Ah yes, “proven”. It’s obvious to me by your use of “proven”, “their”, “dictator shtick”, etc… that you are one of the crazies. You’re not here to spread wisdom because you have none and you’re not here to gain wisdom because you’re incapable of hearing it. Please feel free to go fuck yourself with a red trucker hat.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

As usual when defeated resort to ad-hominems.

Rivalarrival ,

Your scope of analysis is limited to 4 years. There’s no long term analysis.

The long term analysis is that both Israel and Palestine have been more interested in conflict than peace for far longer than I have been alive.

The reality is that their little quarrel is pretty low on my list of priorities. I want representatives who share that opinion.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Both Sidesing a Genocide by lying about history, another brave approach.

Rivalarrival ,

Universal Healthcare ranks higher on my list of priorities than Palestine.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Because it affects you?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Massive Hitlerite opinion there. Free healthcare for you is more important than ceasing support for genocide?!

Diplomjodler3 ,

That’s complete nonsense. Trump is going to support Netanjahu going full fascist. The Democrats are going to offer at least some resistance. Not nearly enough obviously, but there is a clear difference nonetheless. A second Trump administration would be extremely damaging not just to the US but to the entire world. But that’s fine by you, isn’t it? People like you just want to see the world burn and all your ideas of how something better is somehow going to rise from the ashes are just bullshit.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

You can’t defend a Genocide by pretending the Demcrats haven’t already gone full Fascist. All of Netanyahu’s commands have been obeyed to perfection.

Diplomjodler3 ,

Ah, “The Jews” are controlling the American government. Yeah, sure.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

I know liberals are supporting a Holocaust but cool it with the antisemitism

zeppo ,
@zeppo@lemmy.world avatar

Are you going to reward Trump for his decade of insane douchebaggery and criminal behavior? Why would we do that?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Never did I say vote for Trump you’re just putting words in my mouth now. But you’re saying you consider Trumps record of being a scamming piece of trash worse than literal Genocide?

zeppo ,
@zeppo@lemmy.world avatar

You don’t seem to have read or followed any of the logic here. Why’s that?

Someone who would otherwise vote for Harris voting 3rd party would help Trump win. Pretty simple. Not sure what’s so hard to understand about that. And Trump would be just as bad on Gaza, worst likely, and worse on every other issue facing the country as well. Not sure how many times we have to say it.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

No voting third party helps third party win.

Voting for Harris is helping Genocide win.

Rivalarrival ,

We’ve tried “Not Genocide” for 80+ years, and it doesn’t seem to be improving the situation. What would you recommend?

dan1101 ,

If a massive number of voters would vote third party that would be great. But based on every presidential election ever that’s just wishful thinking. The reality is a vote for a third party is one less vote for the best chance to defeat Trump.

The reality here is we aren’t going to win with a non genocide candidate. The best we can do is go with the masses and vote the least bad candidate in.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Self-fulfilling prophecies are not an argument.

Rivalarrival ,

The laws of thermodynamics are sometimes summarized as

  • You can’t win
  • You can’t break even
  • You can’t quit

That summary applies to the Israel/Palestine conflict. Everyone is going to be pissed off no matter what we do, including if we do nothing.

Politically, the best way to deal with Israel/Palestine is “Hey, look, a squirrel”.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Doing mental gymnastics to ignore a Genocide is very convenient.

Rivalarrival ,

Climate Change is a much higher priority than Palestine.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Because it affects you personally?

skvlp ,

No. In his previous term he clearly favoured Israel more than what the current government is. Examples I remember are moving the embassy to contested/Palestinian territory, having his corrupt step son manage policy in the middle east and wasn’t Kushner and the kids involved in shady business dealings in the area as well.

Stopping the genocide is very important, but it’s also very important to stop the facist from taking power. EVERYTHING, including Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians will be a whole lot worse with the facist in power.

Trump will kiss up to Netanyahu because they are both demagogues.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

And the Democrats moved the embassy back right?

skvlp ,

Proving they are trying to improve the situation for the Palestinians by righting a wrong done by the other, and far worse, of the two candidates. Right?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar
  • Move the israeli embassy into Jerusalem
  • Literal mass Genocide on the Palestinians in Gaza

Which of these is worse?

AVincentInSpace ,

If Linkerbaan could hurry up and get his ass permabanned from all of Lemmy I would really appreciate it

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