Genuinely, though. You describe democratic worker councils, large public programs, criticize Capitalism, even point out Imperialism, and everyone agrees with you and what you want, as long as you don’t call yourself a Marxist.
I see this a ton on Lemmy, if I describe what I want and how I want to get there, very few people openly disagree unless I add that this is Marxism. So, I’ve stopped trying to hide that these ideas are Marxist and instead focus on correcting misconceptions about Marxism, like thinking Communism would have no government.
Indeed, as soon as you mention Marxism then the whole conversation becomes about that. Simply discussing the concepts with people without using trigger words tends to be a lot more productive. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what people want to call it, as long as they can understand what course of action is desirable.
I do think it’s useful to dispel the veil, though. People simply agreeing with concepts doesn’t mean they will pursue action, it’s important that people actually understand Marxism, at least in my opinion. Agitprop is good.
Would you care to elaborate on what aspects of these beliefs you find to be extreme. Is it the idea that workers should own the fruits of their labor, or perhaps the idea that the purpose of work should be for common benefit?
Pervasive cradle-to-grave anti-communist indoctrination programming, affecting nearly every western institution from media, education, law, political structures, etc.
an opposite would be something everybody thinks is a bad idea until you name it
unless you're saying people disagree with the concepts and goals of eugenics until you say "but that's just eugenics" at which point they're fully on board?
Most people think that Eugenics are a bad idea even if you don’t name it, which is the opposite of people actually agreeing with the ideas behind Marxism without knowing its Marxism.
people sometimes end up accidentally talking themselves into eugenics and promoting eugenics before somebody points out that they're talking about eugenics
But it is what the comment said. It’s saying that people promote eugenics without realizing it. They do so by talking about the mechanics of eugenics without naming them.
Your confusion comes from the fact that you assume most people like the mechanics of eugenics. If that’s the sort of crowd you hang out with, then you may be associating with fascists.
but that's literally what the comment's saying? and you're saying "that's an example of the opposite?
e.g., there's a pretty good argument that pre-natal screening is a form of eugenics
if you describe the mechanics of pre-natal screening to somebody, i suspect most would be in support of that, but wouldn't be if you described it using the term "eugenics"
like, if you were to notice that completing tertiary education makes it more difficult for people to have children, and you decided to create some form of government aid to offset that, then oopsie daisy you just did a eugenics, but you could absolutely package that idea in a way that most people would instinctively go "yeah that sounds okay"
also to preempt pls nobody do the intellectually dishonest thing of pretending me following this line of argument means im in love with eugenics and am here to argue for more eugenics or that i just dont think eugenics is such a bad thing after all thnk u
if you want to use the sentiment expressed in this post as an argument for marxism being good, which seems pretty transparent in this case, then that same sentiment being used to justify eugenics isn't a good thing for said argument
i'm not that concerned with the precise definition of "opposite", but i am concerned with whether or not the post's logic is sound
i’m not that concerned with the precise definition of “opposite”, but i am concerned with whether or not the post’s logic is sound
The problem is that your argument relies on the idea that “most people support eugenics until you say what it actually is,” which is false in my experience while the post is correct.
i've given two examples where i think the average person would come down on the side of "let's do some eugenics" until being told "haha you just agreed to do some eugenics"
the problem with the post is that if you boil it down, it becomes "things that sound good on the surface are automatically good", which doesn't hold
"people have a negative connotation to the word Marxism" absolutely has baked-in implications, and an argument left unsaid, even in total isolation
if i say to you "people think the word nazi has negative connotations", then even with no other context then obviously you'd conclude that i'm a nazi freak
the post doesn't make any justification for the ideas being sound and good, it says they sound good
i don't think this post's subtext is as simple as the interpretation you're providing
if i say to you “people think the word nazi has negative connotations”, then even with no other context then obviously you’d conclude that i’m a nazi freak
Good thing Nazism isn’t sound, nor does it sound good, even without the label.
the post doesn’t make any justification for the ideas being sound and good, it says they sound good
It does, actually. Marxism is popular and easily understood, yet red scare propaganda and anticommunism has given it a negative connotation. Eugenics and Nazism are not popular, and have bad connotations because they are bad ideas in general, not to mention Nazism being based on pure evil extermination.
Good thing Nazism isn't sound, nor does it sound good, even without the label.
it was brought up to explain why "it's just saying it has negative connotations" doesn't make something neutral
Marxism is popular and easily understood, yet red scare propaganda and anticommunism has given it a negative connotation
you're kind of just imagining a different post at this point?
"it does, actually"? you're going to have to clarify what you mean by "this post makes a justification as to why the concepts behind marxism are sound and good", unless you mean that "people thinking the ideas sound good" is your justification, which you just argued a second ago wasn't what the post was doing, and which is exactly what i'm saying is a junk justification
"Marxism is popular" this post very specifically makes the point that marxism isn't popular, but its ideas are. that's like the whole point of the post
also, "easily understood" what? we haven't even defined what sort of marxism we're talking about here
it says nothing about the reasons for negative connotations; you're adding that yourself
Eugenics [is] not popular
again, i've given two examples where the average person would probably support eugenics-in-description-only
No, it was brought up to draw equivalence to Marxism, don't play coy.
cool ur jets buddy
it wasn't, and doesn't even really make sense when read through that lens
No, Marxism is popular, it's just sold as different names.
that's describing the same sentiment i just expressed using different words
Is there some other kind we need to worry about here that's hard to understand?
honestly the term "marxism" is nebulous enough that just deciding on what counts as "in-scope" is kind of non-trivial
are we talking about the economic theory? marxist communism? the whole body of marx's work?
what definition are you using?
No, you pretended the average person would.
i'm fairly confused what you're trying to say here
are you saying that that, for those two concepts, you don't think you could pitch the basic ideas behind them in a way such that the average person would agree?
Actually I think I get what you’re saying now and I think you have a point. I am not sure the two can be directly compared that way, though. There are different reasons for why people think each is bad once they hear the name and I don’t think the meme is actually saying that this is an argument for or against anything. Just a funny observation.