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Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Genuinely, though. You describe democratic worker councils, large public programs, criticize Capitalism, even point out Imperialism, and everyone agrees with you and what you want, as long as you don’t call yourself a Marxist.

I see this a ton on Lemmy, if I describe what I want and how I want to get there, very few people openly disagree unless I add that this is Marxism. So, I’ve stopped trying to hide that these ideas are Marxist and instead focus on correcting misconceptions about Marxism, like thinking Communism would have no government.

polonius-rex ,

mild the last of us tv season 1 spoilers

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Indeed, as soon as you mention Marxism then the whole conversation becomes about that. Simply discussing the concepts with people without using trigger words tends to be a lot more productive. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what people want to call it, as long as they can understand what course of action is desirable.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I do think it’s useful to dispel the veil, though. People simply agreeing with concepts doesn’t mean they will pursue action, it’s important that people actually understand Marxism, at least in my opinion. Agitprop is good.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

For sure, I agree that chipping away at the propaganda has its own value, hence the meme. :)

candyman337 ,

People conflate Marxism with extreme left beliefs, most people don’t even actually know what Marxism is

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I mean, Marxism is extreme left belief.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Would you care to elaborate on what aspects of these beliefs you find to be extreme. Is it the idea that workers should own the fruits of their labor, or perhaps the idea that the purpose of work should be for common benefit?

SnotFlickerman ,
@SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Lots of people promote eugenics until you point out that they’re promoting eugenics.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Thanks for providing an example of an opposite.

polonius-rex ,

how is that an opposite?

an opposite would be something everybody thinks is a bad idea until you name it

unless you're saying people disagree with the concepts and goals of eugenics until you say "but that's just eugenics" at which point they're fully on board?

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Most people think that Eugenics are a bad idea even if you don’t name it, which is the opposite of people actually agreeing with the ideas behind Marxism without knowing its Marxism.

polonius-rex ,

but that's not what the comment said?

Lots of people promote eugenics

people sometimes end up accidentally talking themselves into eugenics and promoting eugenics before somebody points out that they're talking about eugenics

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

But it is what the comment said. It’s saying that people promote eugenics without realizing it. They do so by talking about the mechanics of eugenics without naming them.

polonius-rex ,

i'm baffled as to what's going on here

  • if you describe the mechanics of eugenics, people like the idea
  • if you label the mechanics of eugenics as eugenics, people do not like the idea

versus

  • if you describe the mechanics of marxism, people like the idea
  • if you label the mechanics of marxism as marxism, people do not like the idea
yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Your confusion comes from the fact that you assume most people like the mechanics of eugenics. If that’s the sort of crowd you hang out with, then you may be associating with fascists.

polonius-rex , (edited )

but that's literally what the comment's saying? and you're saying "that's an example of the opposite?

e.g., there's a pretty good argument that pre-natal screening is a form of eugenics

if you describe the mechanics of pre-natal screening to somebody, i suspect most would be in support of that, but wouldn't be if you described it using the term "eugenics"

like, if you were to notice that completing tertiary education makes it more difficult for people to have children, and you decided to create some form of government aid to offset that, then oopsie daisy you just did a eugenics, but you could absolutely package that idea in a way that most people would instinctively go "yeah that sounds okay"

also to preempt pls nobody do the intellectually dishonest thing of pretending me following this line of argument means im in love with eugenics and am here to argue for more eugenics or that i just dont think eugenics is such a bad thing after all thnk u

Nachorella ,

This is all just semantics and how the word ‘opposite’ can be applied in different ways. I wouldn’t spend too much time on this.

polonius-rex ,

if you want to use the sentiment expressed in this post as an argument for marxism being good, which seems pretty transparent in this case, then that same sentiment being used to justify eugenics isn't a good thing for said argument

i'm not that concerned with the precise definition of "opposite", but i am concerned with whether or not the post's logic is sound

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

i’m not that concerned with the precise definition of “opposite”, but i am concerned with whether or not the post’s logic is sound

The problem is that your argument relies on the idea that “most people support eugenics until you say what it actually is,” which is false in my experience while the post is correct.

polonius-rex ,

i've given two examples where i think the average person would come down on the side of "let's do some eugenics" until being told "haha you just agreed to do some eugenics"

the problem with the post is that if you boil it down, it becomes "things that sound good on the surface are automatically good", which doesn't hold

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

It doesn’t say they are automatically good, just that people have a negative connotation to the word Marxism even if the ideas are sound and good.

polonius-rex ,

"people have a negative connotation to the word Marxism" absolutely has baked-in implications, and an argument left unsaid, even in total isolation

if i say to you "people think the word nazi has negative connotations", then even with no other context then obviously you'd conclude that i'm a nazi freak

the post doesn't make any justification for the ideas being sound and good, it says they sound good

i don't think this post's subtext is as simple as the interpretation you're providing

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

if i say to you “people think the word nazi has negative connotations”, then even with no other context then obviously you’d conclude that i’m a nazi freak

Good thing Nazism isn’t sound, nor does it sound good, even without the label.

the post doesn’t make any justification for the ideas being sound and good, it says they sound good

It does, actually. Marxism is popular and easily understood, yet red scare propaganda and anticommunism has given it a negative connotation. Eugenics and Nazism are not popular, and have bad connotations because they are bad ideas in general, not to mention Nazism being based on pure evil extermination.

You’re not cooking here.

polonius-rex ,

Good thing Nazism isn't sound, nor does it sound good, even without the label.

it was brought up to explain why "it's just saying it has negative connotations" doesn't make something neutral

Marxism is popular and easily understood, yet red scare propaganda and anticommunism has given it a negative connotation

you're kind of just imagining a different post at this point?

"it does, actually"? you're going to have to clarify what you mean by "this post makes a justification as to why the concepts behind marxism are sound and good", unless you mean that "people thinking the ideas sound good" is your justification, which you just argued a second ago wasn't what the post was doing, and which is exactly what i'm saying is a junk justification

"Marxism is popular" this post very specifically makes the point that marxism isn't popular, but its ideas are. that's like the whole point of the post

also, "easily understood" what? we haven't even defined what sort of marxism we're talking about here

it says nothing about the reasons for negative connotations; you're adding that yourself

Eugenics [is] not popular

again, i've given two examples where the average person would probably support eugenics-in-description-only

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

it was brought up to explain why “it’s just saying it has negative connotations” doesn’t make something neutral

No, it was brought up to draw equivalence to Marxism, don’t play coy.

you’re kind of just imagining a different post at this point?

this post very specifically makes the point that marxism isn’t popular, but its ideas are. that’s like the whole point of the post

No, Marxism is popular, it’s just sold as different names. Big difference.

also, “easily understood” what? we haven’t even defined what sort of marxism we’re talking about here

Is there some other kind we need to worry about here that’s hard to understand?

again, i’ve given two examples where the average person would probably support eugenics-in-description-only

No, you pretended the average person would.

Nachorella ,

Actually I think I get what you’re saying now and I think you have a point. I am not sure the two can be directly compared that way, though. There are different reasons for why people think each is bad once they hear the name and I don’t think the meme is actually saying that this is an argument for or against anything. Just a funny observation.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Except that doesn’t follow logically, but it’s pretty clear that you’re determined to work hard not to understand that.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

this one drives me up walls omg.

how did they manage to demonize something thats so common sense.

refurbishedrefurbisher ,

Propaganda is a powerful drug

dessalines ,

Pervasive cradle-to-grave anti-communist indoctrination programming, affecting nearly every western institution from media, education, law, political structures, etc.

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/c34db194-21ca-42da-a8e4-e36185a665b0.jpeg

10_0 ,

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