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BeefPiano ,

Yeah, I can’t remember anything bad that happened in 2020.

YourPrivatHater ,

Ok but… Let’s be real trump didn’t cause it, he just made it worse.

mozz OP ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Infinitely worse. It’s hard to calculate, but there were countries where they literally had single digit covid numbers during the pre vaccine days, just because they gave the situation the gravity and strictness it deserved

I have a family member who’s in the hospital right now, in a part of the country where practically no one including the hospital staff is wearing a mask. It’s hard to even find them in the hospital to put one on. There are rooms clearly marked with mask and droplet precautions on the outside of the door, and the staff will take a mask from a box next to the door, go inside to deal with that person, and then when they’re done they take their mask back off and go back to walking around treating patients with no mask. What do the people in those rooms have? I don’t know but I can confidently say the hospital is fucking up in a fashion that is actively killing some number of patients and that politics are involved in that.

I am constantly worrying whether Trump’s bullshit will wind up adding my family member, individually and personally, to that 1.5 million surplus deaths

YourPrivatHater ,

The countries with single digit numbers (total) where pretty small and had no notable industry to keep running, you should measure on Europe and per 1000 or 100000 people.

And everyone fucked up, it was the first real global pandemic with this intensity. As said, Trump made it worse with his BS but it wasn’t Trump alone, and a big portion was out of his jurisdiction as well. I hate the guy but you don’t need to treat him as evil incarnate, this just makes it worse.

mozz OP ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Tell all that to my family member. Once he’s out of the hospital and not in danger of the exact procedures Trump pushed hard for giving him some kind of currently-life-threatening infection, we can rap about jurisdiction and industrial numbers.

Sure, it’s hard to be precise about the outcomes what some theoretical more competent administration might have done differently. But yes, Trump’s measures killed some number of people, and gave some number more disability that lasts to the present day. Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Like I say, once my family isn’t actively directly being endangered by the lasting after effects of his malicious policies, we can have a calm debate about it.

YourPrivatHater ,

I don’t need to argue on a emotional level, there have been many covid deaths everywhere and many people with long covid. And again, i said Trump made it worse, this doesn’t mean its Trumps fault, it was also the people around him and like half of the US population that did not listen. Trump is a asshole and a idiot, but politics don’t work alone, the senate also fucked up, the local governments fucked up, the people that protested to reopen the hairdressers and shit like that fucked up, the companys that shifted their entire production to China did… There where and are so many fuck ups its impossible to measure a single part of it. Oh and guess what! It will happen again.

mozz OP ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

It is not an emotional argument to point out that the MAGA bullshit of people wearing masks or getting vaccines making them the enemy is purely a Trump-world invention, with aftereffects continuing to and beyond the present day. Same goes for that stuff being of a totally different and explicitly malicious kind than the simple errors that some government body might commit that was trying to address the crisis, instead of using it simply as another way to pursue its overt policy of going to war with all sensible people everywhere, in any way they could find.

And it happens that I have an example directly and personally relevant to me, but there are plenty of families all across the country who have the same. Quite a lot of them have lost family members. I know some of those families with dead members. It's not just an anecdote.

I think I've spent as long as I need to on this. If you want to say that Trump didn't kill a fuck of a lot of people, as a direct result of prioritizing his culture-war bullshit over literally saving lives (or that that killing of people more or less on purpose is not a problem), I don't know what to say to you.

NoIWontPickAName ,

They never said that, they explicitly stated that trump made it worse, just that he wasn’t the only cause of it.

I seem to remember trump pushing vaccines, if for no other reason than that he could say he helped with their development

mozz OP ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Okay

I’m gonna channel all the anger I just felt in a productive direction

Trump did not “fuck up”. He succeeded at what he was trying to do, which goal was horrifying. “This doesn’t mean it’s Trump’s fault” is a load of horseshit, because a large part of the catastrophe was very much his fault. I feel like I’ve spent enough time breaking down why and how. If you want to pretend something else happened in the conversation, so you can keep a disagreement going with me for literally no reason at all, I have no plans to engage with it further.

Productive effort in a productive direction is incoming.

NoIWontPickAName ,

I’ll wait to see your productive effort in a productive direction then

mozz OP ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

I’ll let you know

NoIWontPickAName ,

So they are putting on a mask for the rooms that require it and then discarding once no longer necessary?

mozz OP ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

In what world is wearing a mask while walking around in a setting where there are guaranteed to be undetected COVID cases, and guaranteed to be people who will be vulnerable to exceptionally bad impacts if they catch COVID, during a COVID spike, no longer necessary?

I’m aware they are following the hospital’s guidelines. I am saying that those guidelines are killing people.

paddirn ,

It would take decades to undo all the damage from Trump’s tenure, some of it may even be irreversible. It’s mind-boggling that anybody who lived through four years of that could want to vote for four more years.

nolannice ,
@nolannice@lemmy.world avatar

Sometimes I think my memory is bad and getting worse, but hey at least I can remember an attempted coup 3.5 years ago

conditional_soup ,

Trump is a lot like Reagan in that a lot of his policy choices are time bombs. In forty years, someone’s going to be wondering “Jesus, why is this shit so dysfunctional? Oh, it’s Reagan Trump. Of course it’s Reagan Trump, it’s always Reagan Trump.”

nokturne213 ,

Some of it will not even take that long. Like the tax breaks trump gave out that expired during Biden’s term. I see that cited a lot about why Biden bad.

Socsa ,

“No we are definitely real communists not right wing trolls”

They aren’t even trying to hide it anymore.

jvw , (edited )

Kids in cages, kids taken from parents and put up for adoption

Outing of all undercover ops in Russia (who were then jailed or murdered)

Installing the most corrupt supreme court justice since the 19th century

Attempted violent overthrow of the government

Ivermectin, “inject a little bleach…”

And that’s just off the top of my head without coffee

cabron_offsets , (edited )

You need some covfefe, because you forgot the most important one:

  • attempted dismantlement of the post-ww2 world order at the explicit cost of America and her western allies (broadly construed to include Japan, Australia, Korea, NZ, etc.), for the explicit benefit of Russian hegemony under Putin, with the knock-on effect of empowering most significantly our greatest geopolitical rival, China, which hopes to promulgate its fascist hellscape throughout Asia.
jvw ,

Absolutely. Seems like a good thread to turn into a handy bookmarkable catalog of anti memory-hole of those nightmare years

TrickDacy ,

And how about packing the courts with right wing nutjobs? Roe vs Wade’s demise is far from the only consequence there

snooggums ,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

…kids taken from parents and put up for adoption

Literal kidnapping and trafficking of children.

5oap10116 , (edited )

Damage isn’t obvious. A lot of it is:

  • Declining/damaged trust from allies and such.
  • Financial decisions that don’t cause massive disruption but start to move things in the opposite direction from progress and toward greater wealth inequality.
  • General degradation of norms and values that our countries and allies rely on
  • Don’t get me started on national security issues with how easy it was to get in Trumps ear by sitting at mar a Lago, spending a bunch of $ at his properties, meetings where translator notes were destroyed, stolen documents…

All of this together makes it a lot easier for enemies to manipulate the populace and eventually cause some large scale disruption which would be probably under the opposing party (democrats) to continue to encourage trumpism and the politics that got us there.

Lastly, if you didn’t suffer from anything negative from Trumps presidency, you’re lucky or ignorant. Chances are it’s affecting you in ways you either don’t know/understand or don’t care about. Essentially all trump did for the white working man is give them a warm fuzzy feeling inside

RecursiveParadox ,
@RecursiveParadox@lemmy.world avatar

How is this not downvoted into oblivion - I know it’s a link to that instance, but still.

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