For me efficiency and less eye strain is important. I want my eyes to be at the center of the screen for the majority of my session. Gnome is my goto for that reason but any tiling windows manager would do as welll.
KDE and the windows start bar lookalikes constantly have your eyes going to the corner or sides to open and find apps.
Usage data is important for developers to know how people use their software, so I’m okay with it. But given Red Hat’s recent direction, I’m not sure I trust them to slowly increase the data being collected.
But I don’t use Fedora and I’ve already moved off Red Hat/CentOS, so I don’t have a horse in this race ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Telemetry is important for desktop developers, you can negate it but it’s a fact
I’m going to assume you know what the subject and object of that sentence are. Here’s the thing about how language works on my planet: through the magic of a radical new concept called “context”, we can accurately discern both meaning and normative statements from what people say and how they phrase it. In other words, “It’s a fact that telemetry is important for desktop developers” is an ostensibly descriptive statement that also creates a normative statement in the same way that standing in the sun casts a shadow: it has to, it isn’t optional. It’s “Desktop developers who don’t use telemetry are ignoring something that it’s factual to say is important they not ignore”. Please tell me you get it now, and that you don’t need the rest spoonfed to you.
If this gets implemented, I’ll certainly be switching distros. That opt-out telemetry is even a serious proposal is potentially enough for me to switch, as it indicates where the Fedora team’s heads are. I’ve been using and recommending Fedora for over a decade, but this is crosses a line.
Please read the thing properly. It is nothing more than a proposal currently, which is being actively discussed with the community to make sure that users (including you) are satisfied with the result if it is implemented, or to make sure it is not implemented at all.
Reading through the post it looks like the project leads (Fedora council members) are arguing in favour of “opt-out” and the larger community is arguing in favour or either opt-in or a middle ground where the user has to select an option with no default.
Honestly it seems like the Fedora team is arguing that there are only two options: opt-out, or nothing at all. This isn’t true and people are commenting with more reasonable alternatives.
I am actually european… I live in greece… It is just that when i picture the map, i picture europe middle-west so i go with middle. Unless what we mean is the culture which by convention, you are correct… Damn… Now i actually feel like the nerd with the glasses… Not in the good way…
I think it only uses western dependencies if they are open source. Even if linux somehow got weaponised against China (hard to imagine this as it goes against the very basics of Open Source), they could still use the older kernel releases and fork from that.
Linux kernel isn’t western or finnish, because you don’t need to trust westerners of finns to use it. Wherever you live, linux kernel is yours
GNU/Linux technologies were founded in the west, but are contributed to by people all over the world. I also feel like the ideology and philosophy behind them are in stark contrast to the “western” ideologies of capitalism and imperialism.
Here is a related question - when I was writing random or zeros to the raw device (/dev/sda) I was getting speeds of 1.7 or so mb / s now I am getting 25 mb/s writing to a file in the partition.
I totally agree. It’s a shame, Fedora really is an awesome distro. Adding telemetry was to be expected since IBM is the parent company of Red hat and almost anything IBM touches turns to crap.
fedora is my first experience with linux and i thought i made a good choice and i never had to mess around anymore but now i am seriously considering it :/
Who said anything about “preference” to an IBM distro? I used Linux mint, Ubuntu, manjaro, arch, opensuse in the past, so there’s definitely no preference to IBM.
This. I always opt in BECAUSE it’s opt in. Ask and ye shall receive and all that; but if you’re gonna try to force my hand, well…no, I don’t think I will.
No, this is not “ruining your beautiful Fedora”, this is a proposal that both hus users and the developers can pitch in to develop telemtry in a way that does not abuse its users.
And about the opt-in/opt-out nature of it, feel free to join the follow-up discussion about it on the forum:
i get the importance of telemetry and maybe i worded my inital reply a bit harshly. but you probably will agree that this really does not paint a good picture of red hat with the whole rhel controversy as well
Highly disagree. Although I’m not content with RH’s decisions during the last few months (especially when it comes to their layoffs), this one shouldn’t even be a controversy at all. It’s just a proposal for a community project. There will be no RedHat threats or higher-up decisions without the consent of the community. That’s the main difference between Fedora (which does have deep ties with RedHat but is through and through a community project) and RedHat (the downstream entreprise).
Telemetry should not exist in the first place. If it exists, it should completely be opt-in and self-contained in one single package that is not installed by default.
The problem with opt-in telemetry is that it messes with the scope of the research.
If you want to understand something about most users (and not just the ones that are active enough in the project to participate in opt-in) you need this, otherwise your results only tell the needs of this subset of your userbase and this sometimes can go completely against the needs of the majority of users.
The problem with telemetry isn’t the telemetry itself, is how it is used, and the way the proposal is worded makes me very optimistic. They are trying 200% hard to make sure we understand that it will never be used in violation of the users’ privacy.
And once again, it isn’t “without consent”, it just means that the default state of the checkbox is on. Users will still be presented with a confirm option before any data is sent.
In other words, unbiased telemetry is not possible to do ethically.
Say that to the opentelemetry and Plausible folks, who have been on the vanguard of doing exactly that for years now.
Wrong again, the “switch” only sets the setting itself, but before finishing the setup process the user would be provided with a confirmation detailing the data that would be sent and provided with the option to send it or not. The process would have user consent.
It’s not mistaken for context, you’re just missing the point. The switch is just part of it, the user would still have to consent to send their data before it is sent and the proposal proposes to have it detailing the data that is going to be sent and explaining the process.
Having it as a default guarantees it doesn’t scare non-power users away from it. It’s not about just having people clicking next and accepting it without consent.
Disagree, no matter the level of detail, having “yes” automatically selected is an assumption. What purpose would it have other than hoping people will just select the defaults and ignore it?
Having it as a default guarantees it doesn’t scare non-power users away from it. It’s not about just having people clicking next and accepting it without consent.
Scare away from what? Data collection? I mean even in that wording you are saying there is something to be scared of. It should be up the user. If you are saying “non-power users won’t fully understand what is being collected and might get scared away if it isn’t the default option” then that is even worse TBH. Preying on people not fully understanding what’s going on.
Having the default box being “on” is only for the purpose of hoping people click through without realizing.
There is literally no other argument here. “Consent” is: “Hey do you want this, yes or no?”. Not “We are assuming yes unless you explicitly tell us otherwise”.
if the average person doesnt consent to fill a questionnaire, or an interview, how do you collect data about the average person. but then again, how do you know the average person doesnt want to fill a questionnaire? did you spread a questionnaire that had the question ‘do you fill questionnaire?’ in it
It does feel like there’s been a shift, especially in organisations that use the work of others for their own benefit (e.g. open source, community produced content, etc). It seems like there’s been a real move to have their cake and eat it.
Oracle has just made an aggressive move with regards to Java licensing too, they’re now charging as much as $15/month/employee to use their Java runtime on the desktop/server. Their FAQ even points you to OpenJDK if you don’t want to pay, which is strange - it makes me think the relationship between Oracle and the OpenJDK will be ending sometime in the not-so-distant future. There are several Java projects I’ve done where that would just become non-viable as it was a project for a single department in a large company.
Software developers are one of the most altruistic groups of people - it’s amazing just how much time and effort they put into things that they get no financial return on, only the love of actually doing it. And people that dedicate their time and effort to online communities, education, and so on are equally amazing.
But I think it’s time to stop being so naive and realise that many large corporate entities are abusing this relationship for their own gain.
That’s a good point. Perhaps FSF has got the message and GPL v.4 will give FOSS developers the option to ensure that all derivatives of our code will remain publicly available and not placed behind paywalls.
A good thing in general, maybe this will help improve compatibility with old stuff and its old bugs, cause it’ll be simpler to emulate those bugs with cleaner code.
BTW, has anyone managed to run Rogue Squadron 3D under Wine? I’m just interested, I’m having that menu input bug not allowing to do anything.
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