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sxan ,
@sxan@midwest.social avatar

Wait wait… I know nothing about the GWoC. Are they wrong about the direction the defenses facing, and the side the stairs are on? Of they aren’t, why is this “insane Facebook?”

I’m totally ignorant about the Wall, or about the famous sections of it.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Part of the problem is that the pictures they’re showing were of part of the wall that was built in the middle ages during the Ming Dynasty, but other parts of the wall were nearly 1000 years old when that part was being built.

Edit: Here is a much older section of wall-

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/108d1389-9b2c-4f2b-81d3-f24fc5132e36.png

sxan ,
@sxan@midwest.social avatar

I did see that there’s not one Great Wall, but there is the “famous” section that all tourists seem to visit and walk, and which generates the most photos. This is the section in the Facebook post, yah? Are they right about the directions, and if so, what’s the explanation for it?

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

That I could not tell you, sorry.

DragonTypeWyvern , (edited )

Apparently it’s part of a myth pushed by Russian nationalists.

reddit.com/…/tartaria_the_supposed_megaempire_of_…

There are also some inward-facing fortifications, because portions of the wall were built on the assumption that raiding parties would also be trying to leave, and they knew they couldn’t block off literally the entire border.

Edit: in case you don’t buy that, look at Hadrian’s Wall. Both fortifications are actually built on a similar premise with similar principles.

Klear , (edited )

Or maybe Hadrian’s Wall was actually built by a secret mega-empire to defend against Rome…

pixeltree ,
@pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I’d say, because making the leap to “the mongol hordes built the wall” is pretty insane, when there’s many much simpler explanations? Because the idea of keeping “who actually made this incredibly long wall” a secret is nutty? Because if they were going to spend a ton of time and effort to try and pass it off as them making it, to the point there’s no records or even tales to the contrary, you would think they would have done something as obvious as moving the stairs to their side of the wall. There’s like no level at which this makes any sense. Good on you for being skeptical though

sxan ,
@sxan@midwest.social avatar

No, wait… so the access stairs are on the outside (facing away from China)? And the defense turrets do face inwards toward China?

Why the hell would the Chinese design defenses like that?

MindTraveller ,

Maybe the Chinese engineers just really sucked at their jobs

ivanafterall ,
@ivanafterall@lemmy.world avatar

Back in my day, we fired our defenses at ourselves and we were grateful for the opportunity.

pixeltree ,
@pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I don’t know whether they are or not, I’d imagine given how large it is and the variation in how old it is there might be older sections that protected one part of china from another during times when it was broken up and is “facing” the other way. The point is, it doesn’t matter. The series of conclusions they leap to is nuts, even if the thing they’re leaping off of is actually true

Tar_alcaran ,

No, wait… so the access stairs are on the outside (facing away from China)?

No, but to be fair, there weren’t many stairs out in the open air anyway. Access is mostly through defended and barred towers and gatehouses not open stairs. And those towers all open towards China.

And the defense turrets do face inwards toward China?

Well, sort-of-yes, they face both ways.

Why the hell would the Chinese design defenses like that?

Because a wall like this serves multiple purposes. It’s not just a wall, it’s also a highway, patrol route, tax-collection point, propaganda piece and military base. But much more importantly: The parts of the wall in those pictures are later restorations and there is basically zero evidence they looked like this a thousand years ago.

Now, some super basic realities when you’re designing a wall like this:

  • Towers are wider than walls. You want them to stick out to both sides of the wall for more room, and so you can shoot the people on the wall from more than one side. So they stick out to both sides by basic design.
  • They would march whole armies over these walls, and drive carts and wagons over them. You REALLY want something of a guardrail if you’re doing that, and unless you like the idea of not being able to see what’s on your side, you need crenellations in your side of the guardrail too. And sometimes, you might want to shoot at people on your side, for example when the enemy gets through. So you end up with a “double” wall. This is pretty common in European castles too.
  • You want to keep an eye on people trying dodge taxes, break laws and do lots of other things you don’t like to your side of the wall too.
  • The wall and the towers served as a military base. And as any soldier in the history of soldiering will tell you, being on a military base in the middle of nowhere fucking sucks, and sneaking out is a timeless international passtime.
sxan ,
@sxan@midwest.social avatar

Excellent response! Thank you for taking time to answer my questions.

Tar_alcaran ,

Castle/fortification design is kind of my niche interest, glad it finally comes in handy.

HappycamperNZ ,

Im sorry, 21 thousand kilometers?

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

That’s actually true, although there is no THE Great Wall of China. There are a lot of walls which are loosely connected. The famous stone part was built in the middle ages, but some of it stretches all the way back to the Qin dynasty in the 200s BCE and that was made of pounded earth.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b7391573-422d-4ad9-a434-37409936cd9e.png

HappycamperNZ ,

Thats just shy of double earths diameter (~12.5 thousand km).

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Sure, but as you can see on that map, we’re not talking about one continuous straight line. And more walls get discovered all the time.

HappycamperNZ ,

Oh, im not disagreeing. It just… damn…

ivanafterall ,
@ivanafterall@lemmy.world avatar

It’s like the “Build the Wall” people were given carte blanche.

Klear ,

That layout looks kinda similar to what I always ended up building in Age of Mythology.

Tar_alcaran ,

Mongolian steppe nomads, famous for their stonework.

EleventhHour ,
@EleventhHour@lemmy.world avatar

It’s the scale of their industry that impresses me the most, really

ivanafterall ,
@ivanafterall@lemmy.world avatar

Their stonework skills enabled them to build the steppes.

Tar_alcaran ,

steppes, steps, same thing right?

Assman ,
@Assman@sh.itjust.works avatar

The “Guy” had me laughing

some_guy ,

Social media will go down as the single factor most responsible for the stupidizing of society.

thesporkeffect ,

If the main comment were lifted word for word and uploaded to a shitposting community, it would fit right in

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