Lemmy votes ARE public, should they be anonymous?

Cephalotrocity , 7 hours ago

The more I spend time on Lemmy, the more I think it is in a lot of trouble. There are many serious issues that need to be addressed and I don’t see how most of them can be.

Federation is touted as a Good, but has many drawbacks. Privacy (as listed in this post for example) for one, instead of algorithm curated/focused content federated servers each enforce (subconsciously or overtly) a theme, rampant user generation off multiple servers rendering moderation pointless, and so on.

Then there is the rampant issue of moderation abuse. It seems that the only reason to be a moderator is to not be annoyed at other people forcing their opinions on you. This reminder that admins/mods get yet another way to subject the users to their biases is the nail in the coffin IMO. “You vote this way? Banned because my feelings matter more”.

Privacy is important for a lot of people and that is impossible to get on Lemmy unless something drastically changes, but it doesn’t sound like this is will ever happen. The people that can see your data is not under your control at all and I think this fact alone will never allow Lemmy to grow to a place we can be happy with.

If admins can see data without limits, everyone should be able to. All 5 of us once that realization sinks in.

;tldr I don’t think even admins should see peoples data but that seems impossible so…

snek , 44 minutes ago

There is enough drama as it is. This will just open the door to shadowbanning and stalking and other horrors we have escaped by leaving reddit. It’s enough that it’s party available on kbin.

MagicShel , 6 hours ago

I’ve been thinking about this for several hours since I first became aware of the debate.

I don’t care that much in theory if anyone sees my votes. They aren’t anything I’m particularly private about. I care about conversation way more than up/down votes.

However, some people get a little upset about being downvoted. I think it will result in retaliatory downvotes. You already see that when two folks are arguing. I don’t normally waste my time downvoting a post I’m writing a rebuttal to, but when they are downvoting me I tend to do it back. I think if everyone had easy access, they would hunt down their down voters posts and retaliate regardless of the quality of the comments.

Lastly, I wonder if this will give rise to a client that lets you use one account to post/comment and a different one to vote. And if it does, will that be better all around? Then no one will be able to associate votes with a user. But it seems unnecessarily wasteful to create a whole account that does nothing but vote. It seems like it would deny mods (and everyone) a useful tool for identifying bad actors.

Technically, anyone could get access to the voters identity if they try hard enough but 99% of the users won’t put in that much effort. And technically someone could already use different accounts for different activities, but without reason to create a client to support that it’s too much of a pain to be worth the effort.

So I really think I’m on team status quo here.

rglullis , 4 hours ago

I don’t normally waste my time downvoting a post I’m writing a rebuttal to, but when they are downvoting me I tend to do it back. I think if everyone had easy access, they would hunt down their down voters posts and retaliate regardless of the quality of the comments

That would stop as soon as people start reporting this behavior to mods who felt enabled to ban users based on unjustified downvoting.

MagicShel , 3 hours ago (edited 6 minutes ago)

I’m really skeptical about that. Either that they would do it or that such “justified” downvoting would be a clear cut or fair decision. Most people don’t vote the right way. How many people downvote content they agree with or find funny but doesn’t add to the discussion? How many people upvote content they disagree with that does add to the discussion?

And am I really going to take up a mod’s time because someone got mad at me and downvoted—the most accessible and innocuous way to express displeasure with someone? How many more complaints about downvote bullying are mods going to have to field?

I don’t know. You could be right, but I’d want to see it successful in a small scale, if possible, before deploying it everywhere. Maybe the folks suggesting it should be up to the server admin are right. That would be another differentiator and people could go to communities on servers that have their preferred visibility policy. That would serve as an A/B test and let people vote with their feet.

rglullis , 3 hours ago

How many people downvote content they agree with or find funny but doesn’t add to the discussion?

Again, this is only a problem because we have lost this sense of shared culture. If we really want to have an established “community”, these guidelines will have to be one way or another be restored and enforced.

How many more complaints about downvote bullying are mods going to have to field?

Here is an idea: instead of trying to remove power from people, let’s give more of it. Hiding votes is hard, but creating a finer-grained permission system for moderation is not. Let’s build a system where mods can assign other mods for specific types of reports. Then, we can have few mods who would be “all powerful” like they are now and we could have a bunch of “issue-specific” trusted users who could access/triage specific reports.

We shouldn’t need mods to figure out what is “basic” spam and we shouldn’t need powerful mods to say “user A is reporting that B has downvoted their last 5 posts in different conversations. This is a violation of the community rules and therefore should be banned.”

kenkenken , 7 hours ago

Yes, they should ideally. But it's hard to properly implement them in a way that will guarantee anonymity and be sybil-resistant at the same time.

Th4tGuyII , 4 hours ago

Votes should absolutely be public. They were on KBin, and it made people more civil for it because you could be shamed if you were dislike trolling or liking all of your own posts/comments to make them look better (which is something you actively have to do on here, unlike Reddit).

Given this place is pseudo-anonymous anyways, and people comment far more personal and identifiable info here anyways (which tbf you should be careful about), I think public votes would do much more good than harm.

Tudsamfa , 37 minutes ago

Always in favor of taking power from mods that they can abuse and simply do not need.

The 1 “You think you can come into MY instance, and downvote ME?” post I read was 1 too many.

null , 20 minutes ago

Sounds like opinions are pretty mixed. Maybe we should put it to a vote.

But then how do we decide if that vote should be public or not…

mihnt , 33 minutes ago

They should just stay mostly hidden as they are now. I was harassed 3 times while using kbin for my voting habits. When I brought it up to ernest, him and mostly everyone else defended it, even though at the time I was actively being annoyed by someone.

It’ll make less people vote in the long run and will scare people off.

Nothing worse than hopping on something I do for leisure to realize that thread I voted on a week ago has now come back to bite me in the ass because the OP decided to go on a crusade and harass everyone that downvoted them.

Lemminary , 7 hours ago

Make the author of the comment/post see who voted for them.

half_built_pyramids , 16 minutes ago

I will always downvote ai shit. Brigade 100%. I’m fact this reminds me I need to get through all the ai subs and downvote everything again.

ItsComplicated , 32 minutes ago

Overall my opinion is irrelevant, however, I think there is a huge difference in knowing a person votes vs how a person votes. The how should not be public, imo.

rottingleaf , 3 hours ago

The users right now may fall into a false sense of privacy when voting because the votes are hidden from Lemmy users.

Why would you even want anonymous votes but not anonymous comments?

The former is as good\bad as the latter.

I know they were already technically public. I think they should be shown.

ada , 7 hours ago

Sure, if and when we get the ability to ignore federated votes

ZILtoid1991 , 11 minutes ago

I can see that in some circumstances, votes might need to be public due to protocol, otherwise public votes have their own uses, and so are private ones.

reksas , 3 hours ago

One way to anonymize voting, if desired, could be just make a mess out of who voted what in the logs. I vote something, some other random user’s name is logged. Or maybe that could be used to deter scrapers and make the incorrect logging reverseable somehow that requires actual human interaction that cant be automated.