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Is The United State Fighting A Proxy War?

As an American, the US participation in the Ukrainian conflict as well as the Palestinian genocide are beyond reproach. Many describe them as proxy wars, but I’m not there yet.

During the Cold War, there was the Afghanistan, Vietnam, South America, Cuba, etc. These were proxy wars because there was a clear adversary on the other side. The Soviet Union.

Now, who is that? Russia? China? Who is “our enemy”? I see it was war is good for business and projection of power.

Am I wrong?

The_Che_Banana ,

Ugh, my take is the US is supporting Ukraine because Putin’s a cunt and is trying to destabilize the west.

And because Ukraine started kicking their asses the moment they invaded, which is amazing given the lukewarm response the west had at the beginning of the invasion.

jewbacca117 ,

Interesting take on Ukraine and Palestine. Russia invades Ukraine, and the US supplies the defender. Israel invades Palestine and the US supplies the attacker. I am curious how you find both beyond reproach.

LarkinDePark ,

Ukraine was attacking its own citizens for years before Russia invaded, after it was threatening to join NATO and install nukes etc.

Xiisadaddy ,
@Xiisadaddy@lemmygrad.ml avatar

The US is the common enemy. Your just looking at it from the other side.

wuphysics87 OP ,

That’s a very good point

LarkinDePark ,

Yes Russia and China and any other states that disobey.

Vendetta9076 ,
@Vendetta9076@sh.itjust.works avatar

The only people who equate Ukraine to Palestine are Vatnik bots. To do so is morally bankrupt and only possible if one is entirely ignorant of reality. Don’t be a vatnik OP.

monobot ,

I don’t see it as OP equated Ukraine to Palestine, just theoretizes that there is common other side in those conflicts and that reasons for those wars are not what we think they are.

Interesting idea, but I don’t see it.

Vendetta9076 ,
@Vendetta9076@sh.itjust.works avatar

Its about as “interesting” as being an anti-vaxxer. Questioning reality for the sake of it as opposed to any actual solid reason. The reasons behind the Ukraine war are clear as day.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Ukraine is a proxy war against Russia.

Supporting Israel is the point, it’s not a proxy.

They need Israel to control North Africa, the Arab Peninsula, and much of West Asia. They need Israel to control the movement of goods and people from Africa into Asia and Europe. They need Israel to control the Red Sea and help project power into the lower Mediterranean. They need Israel as their laboratory for surveillance technology and oppressive systems of control. Israel is the unsinkable aircraft carrier, the most valuable asset the US has. Israel is more important than most US states tbh

sonori ,
@sonori@beehaw.org avatar

I mean Saudi Arabia also does all those things, most of them far better than Israel ever could due to geography, and at a far lower cost. If Isreal snapped out of existence tomorrow, between Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Greece European and North American power projection in the Middle East and North Africa remains almost entirely unchanged.

Honestly the military benefits of supporting Isreal while real are definitely not as important as the domestic political benefits to the US, which is to say that the conservatives like Isreal because it provides a nice place to deport all the Jews to while also maintaining precedent for an enthnostate with race based citizenship, and the Democrats like it because they get a lot of gifts, friends, and in their minds potential voters, all for doing exactly what the conservatives want them to do.

redrumBot ,
@redrumBot@lemmy.ml avatar

Israel has been a key USA asset for destabilizing the region from, at leat, the times of Kissinger as secretary of state and to stop socialist panarab projects like then ones of Nasser or the Ba’aths parties.

sonori ,
@sonori@beehaw.org avatar

Yes, but it’s presence in the region being a destabilizing force is a very different thing to being primarily an unsinkable aircraft carrier as the commenter I responded to described it.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Saudi Arabia is kept in line by Israel’s presence in the region. OPEC was once a thorn in the US’s side and now they’re under control, and Israel was key for that.

sonori ,
@sonori@beehaw.org avatar

I think the US becoming the largest oil producer in the world might have had more to do with the decline in OPEC’s influence on the US but what do I know?

Carrolade ,

This betrays a startling lack of awareness of just how extensive US partnerships are across the globe. The US has sent tens of billions of dollars in military and economic aid to Egypt. Close ties with Saudi Arabia. Close ties with Morocco. Most Mediterranean countries are in NATO, actually. This isn’t even to speak of our own military bases littered throughout both Africa and the Middle East.

Does anything going from Asia to Africa even go through Israel? I’d think they’d usually take sea routes through the Indian Ocean. Do we really need some unsinkable aircraft carrier anymore when we have literally dozens of our own airstrips all over the region?

That said, I do agree with your first two points. Ukraine is a proxy war, and supporting Israel is the point. Not sure it’s actually more important than any actual US territory though.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Saudi Arabia actually had consequences after the assassination of Jamal Koshogshi. Minor ones, but still.

Israel will never have consequences. It is just vastly more important - in fact, Israel is a tool to control Egypt and Saudi Arabia in the first place!

Carrolade ,

If Israel was that useful as a tool to control Egypt, sure would like those billions of dollars back…

And I have a feeling they’ll have some consequences. We may not all see the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict the same way, I have a feeling you’re not aware of any of the Arab atrocities from the early 20th century, before Israel was ever a nation. But this time they’ve lost a lot of support in the US for the first time in our history, and that will likely have an impact on future political calculations.

plinky ,
@plinky@hexbear.net avatar

Ukraine is a proxy war (for usa interests), israel is a genocidal ally (as it’s acting in its own interests). Both would fold without USA support, but I think they are somewhat different. Ukraine wouldn’t dare to shit on usa, or do something against usa word, and they perform their politics completely dependent on usa. Israel acts and behaves with much more impunity, and its alignment with usa interests is very meh

redrumBot ,
@redrumBot@lemmy.ml avatar

In Ukraine, yes. The US is fighting a proxy war against Russia. The last 30 years of NATO expansion and USA animosity against Russia are enough evidence in my opinion.

In Palestine, no. Israel and the USA are committing a Genocide against the Palestinians, or at least, is a USA backed Genocide.

nooneescapesthelaw ,

Watr in Ukraine is proxy war

The reality is that NATO and the United States, are now, without question, in a proxy war with Russia," former CIA director and US defense secretary Leon Panetta told the ABC.

"Maybe it’s not a direct war, but it certainly is a proxy war, in terms of their efforts to make Putin pay a price.

rusticus ,

Dude, Russia IS the enemy. If you let Ukraine fall, the Baltic states and Poland are next. Russia ADMITTED as much. And China looks at Taiwan. Do you not understand the idea of democracy and deterrence?

ShimmeringKoi ,
@ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net avatar

Does a bear proxy shit in the woods?

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