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TheReturnOfPEB ,

Federalist Paper 29

The founding fathers thought that standing armies make any leader a tyrant.

xor ,

The issue, from what I can tell, is that the question you’ve asked here doesn’t match the argument you just had in comments of a post about about the Ukraine war. The argument you were trying to make is not “war bad”, but specifically that Ukraine’s counteroffensive is bad. You were additionally arguing that it is morally reprehensible for other countries to provide economic support to Ukraine rather than leaving them to “defend themselves”.

There’s a few important details that such an argument (intentionally) ignores.

  • This invasion was not a choice between war or no war. It was simply a decision between locations that battles take place. It is entirely legitimate for Ukraine to pursue a counteroffensive strategy into russian territory if it believes it to be a more effective military strategy than defensive attritional warfare within their own borders.
  • The fact that combat is taking place in Russian territory doesn’t change the fact that the war itself is a defensive war against an aggressor with overtly territorial/imperialist goals.
  • As far as I am aware, the units involved in the counteroffensive are exclusively non-drafted volunteer units.
  • Cessation of funding to Ukraine would lead to their imminent loss. The fact that they have been able to innovate cheaper strategies like domestic drone usage doesn’t change the fact that war is extremely expensive and technology dependent, and their economy is dwarfed by that of Russia’s.

The combination of your proposals that Ukraine should not proactively fight back, and that they should lose access to the resources that would allow them to continue to defend their territory end us meaning that Ukraine would not be able to effectively defend itself.

From reading your comments alongside this post, it seems that the title should actually be “how do you make someone understand that rolling over and dying is good”, to which the answer is “oh fuck off mate”

Kalkaline ,
@Kalkaline@leminal.space avatar

War is horrific. If we deem a military is necessary to a peaceful society to protect from threats both domestic and foreign, then we should have a draft of ALL able adults, not just the poor and underprivileged. Rich folks, political folks, and otherwise connected individuals should be subject to be put on the front lines right next to the rest of us. What that means is we might rethink, as a nation, any military action. An all volunteer military would be the next most preferable one that is paid equal or greater to the national average income with full lifetime benefits including healthcare for the whole body including mind, teeth, eyes, etc., pension, free education including masters and doctorate level education, housing, as well as meeting other basic needs of life.

Anything less than that should be unacceptable.

OneCardboardBox ,

Not that I was ever interested in being military, but I was at a lunch with two older lifelong army retirees. They kept talking about how military service broke their bodies and politicians won’t cover their medical costs. These injuries were independent of any combat: It’s just expected that you sell every part of yourself when you sign up.

Who wants to be 45 years old with a limp, be unable to hear a quiet conversation, and have horrible back problems.

bstix ,

You can’t make anyone understand anything.

You can however question their belief and motivate them to consider other options.

I know you’re looking for arguments specifically for your opinion, but you should really try to avoid using arguments at all. If you set an argument, they will attack the argument and use this to dig into their existing belief on whatever is the actual topic of disagreement instead of addressing the actual topic. If you “attack” them, they will “defend”. This does not change their opinion.

It’s better to question them, so they have to think about why they believe in what they do. By questioning, you also show that you do not understand or agree with their opinion.

It also keeps the discussion about something that exists on their side. As soon as you introduce an argument, the discussion turns to being about something that you introduced, and that’s not at all what you intended to discuss or change. Be careful with that. They will attempt to make you present arguments. Don’t let them do that. It’s about what they believe.

Ithral ,
@Ithral@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

So, veteran here. I’ve tried to talk people out of joining the military or at least trying to avoid jobs with high probability of seeing combat. Usually the result is they just start prying about what combat is like and make statements about how much they want to experience it.

Another tack I haven’t tried but it might be more effective, is to describe how miserable it is to have the stench of a burn pit wafting over you, always wondering if the distant gunfire will move in your direction, being stuck manning a 24/7 watch where if even one person who can do that job dies or is otherwise incapacitated you will be stuck doing 12hr shifts instead of 8. Then you get back home and have to fight tooth and nail for benefits from the country that fucked your life up in the first place.

War is hell, coming home is hell, forcing that on someone can only be justified if they are literally at home fighting off an invading force.

sunzu2 ,

forcing that on someone can only be justified if they are literally at home fighting off an invading force.

Empire propaganda must be real good if this commenter has to say this out loud

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

It’s not the propaganda that’s good, SunZu.

It’s the poverty. Tens of millions of young people in this country have no other way out of debt or to move upward economically.

TheMandalorian ,
@TheMandalorian@sffa.community avatar

If you want someone to understand that being forcibly drafted and ordered to invade another country isn’t just a bad idea but a downright tragedy, let’s put it in perspective. Imagine you’re just living your life—going to school, working a job, or raising a family—and suddenly, you’re yanked out of that and thrown into a warzone. You’re given no choice, no say, just a rifle, and a command to invade a place you know nothing about, all for reasons that have nothing to do with you.

This isn’t about defending freedom; it’s about being a pawn in a game played by U.S. politicians who are more interested in buying their next yacht than in the lives of the people they send to die. These are the same folks who might be snorting heroin in one breath, chasing it down with a hit of DMT or PCP in the next, all while contemplating their next political move. And let’s not forget Hunter Biden, probably somewhere in the mix, lighting up a crack pipe while surrounded by the latest scandal.

They’re far removed from the battlefield, making decisions that will never impact them directly. They’re too busy floating on their luxury yachts, possibly fueled by the profits of their next arms deal, to care about the human cost. These decisions aren’t just made in some sterile boardroom; they’re made in a haze of substance-fueled excess, where the life of a drafted soldier is nothing more than a means to an end, another dollar in their pocket.

So, when you’re forced into that situation, it’s not about honor or patriotism—it’s about serving the interests of those who are more concerned with their next high or their next luxury purchase than with your life. It’s about being used, discarded, and forgotten, all so a few people can continue living their lives in obscene excess.

Dagwood222 ,

Hunter Thompson opined that the US draft was better than the alternative.

Under the draft everyone, rich and poor, was expected to serve. With a ‘volunteer army’ only the poor need to go.

Another drafted vet said that draftees are more likely to speak up if civilians are targeted because the soldiers know that they are eventually going home. Lifers will obey all orders.

sunzu2 ,

Under the draft everyone, rich and poor, was expected to serve.

You can't expect shit from the parasitic rich... In practice poors went anyway.

Bone spurs bitch

And when they went, they chilled at some air force base like Bush Jr

Good point on war crimes but if war crimes are part of the order, peasants will have to do it and that's how these things happens mostly anyway IMHO ie it was the order, then once they are caught it is always the "intern's" fault

Mathazzar ,

Systemic racism in the US ment an inproportionate number of drafted service personnel were black as white draftees were able to get college deferments in higher numbers.

This boiled back down to the poorer economic situation of black peoples in the Civil rights era fighting for basic equality.

The draft also caused friction that increased fraggings as this racist treatment by educated white officers or NCOs were dealt with locally. Fragging was furthered by a disconnect between draftees who wanted to just survive and glory hounds who saw military service and War as some great adventure.

linearchaos ,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

In most cases, The people have been indoctrinated by propaganda and it’s been reinforced by their friends family neighbors local government officials. They’re seeing this as good versus evil. Be it forced draft or abortion bans. You can’t talk somebody out of brainwashing. In most cases they will never change their minds until they find themselves on the s***** end of the stick. When their children get drafted or die in the military, or the wife gets raped and impregnated, they say this is horrible and you go wait weren’t you telling us you felt the other way? And they go I just didn’t know. But they did know people told them they just refused to believe it. You’re basically trying to fight religion with reason, and you can’t do that.

HubertManne ,

Its a tough one. A pro draft stance I have only seen with the extremes. Usually with the right its nationalism related, real x should be eager beavers when their time comes to serve. On the left its hey the sons of the leaders and the leaders themselves should have representation in the ware zones. I sorta get the last one as we have an all "volunteer" force that has benefits for signup akin to if you coutry had somewhat decent social safety nets along with training and decent pay. So it has no real draw for the well to do. Thing is that when there was a draft the kept their cowardly progency out with things like bone spurs or such. So they had docs make up medical excuses while they called the ones who were plucked to go die suckers and losers.

That_Devil_Girl ,
@That_Devil_Girl@lemmy.ml avatar

I don’t have anything specific, but generally speaking those who idolize war have never seen the horrors of war. Speaking with veterans who have actually seen real combat is a good place to start.

JohnDClay ,

I didn’t think it’s wrong universally, for example, Ukraines current offensive into Russia.

sunzu2 ,

Ukraine is using special forces for this, who are well paid professionals with strong ideological under pinnings. Those guys are into that shit.

OP is about Russian consript who got deployed in Ukraine "by mistake"

JohnDClay ,

But I’d be okay with Ukraine deploying conscripts to that front.

a_new_sad_me ,

Disclosure: I’m Israeli, I’m anti war and anti occupation. I was drafted more than 20 years ago (it’s sort of mandatory here).

I think you paint it in a too much simple colours. In the war between israel and Gaza now, both armies fight for what they believe is the safety of their home, and in both armies there are high numbers if drafted (by force people). Also, in both sides, there is a level of truth that without the auctions of their army their home will be at risk. So you end up in a situation where there is an army that you don’t fully agree with and you serve in it since the alternative is even worse.

It boils down to the fact that your political leaders are not having your well-being at the top of their priorities. I believe that your discussion with that someone should be about that. Not about do/don’t draft but how to promote a world where there will be no need for drafting.

(I believe that the same goes to Ukrain and Russia war).

mozz , (edited )
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

without the auctions of their army their home will be at risk

Without Hamas’s recent actions, the home of the Palestinians would be at risk?

I think you gotta recheck your math on that one

And of course the same thing applies to Israel; without the IDF and settlers’ actions in Palestine, there wouldn’t have been an October 7th in the first place.

a_new_sad_me ,

Simply reverse the picture of what you said you’ll see we are saying the same thing. From Hammas /Palestinians perspective Israel and the settlements are the same and their agenda is to drive away all Palestinians (and to be fair, some of the MKs here say that openly, even before October 7th). From Israel perspective, Hammas’s declared agenda is to kill Israel/all the Jews (I mean, it is in their charter). From both perspective, there is a good drive to join the army in order to protect their loved ones.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

I don’t disagree with any of that… the only part I was taking issue with was saying “there is a level of truth” that the armed forces of both sides are working for safety of both sides.

If the IDF stopped killing innocent people, it would dramatically increase the level of safety in the future for the loved ones of the soldiers. And likewise for Hamas.

I mean obviously having 0 Israeli military isn’t gonna work; I do get what you’re saying. But put it this way; if Hamas had disappeared entirely on October 6th, everyone on all sides would be a hell of a lot safer today.

Ziggurat ,

Issue is that “old people” had to spend their time in the army, sometimes even in a foreign land (Good old time of the colonial war), so kids these day feel so privileged

I mean, we can blame the boomer for a lot of thing, but in the 60’s and sometimes 70’s (In many countries) young men had no option but do a military service which way involved going to fight to keep the colonies.

_bcron ,

If someone’s romanticizing war to the point that they’re thinking being drafted isn’t a bad thing then no amount of sources or stats would convince them otherwise. I mean, best case scenario they get randomly yanked away from their life, family, and friends and get to burn barrels of shit in the middle of nowhere. How fun.

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