One little question nobody here has asked himself:
How do YOU know that that’s true? Can you verify this information for youself? Could the source have any incentive to lie? Have you read any response about this from the other side?
I think you have a point in that it’s very possible government sources are exaggerating about this - I’m not too invested in what the invaders have to say about it though.
Because it’s the internet, and different communities exist in different places. I watched Reddit deteriorate into a far-left cesspool like many others, and hoped this would be a place where talking to other people and having discussions is encouraged. More so, I thought this would be a place where delegating your political opposition as ‘subhumans’ would be countered the way it should be.
Reddit is a right wing cesspool owned and operated by a right wing ghoul. I have no idea what you’re talking about. Some righties might get banned for saying “WE MUST KILL THE N*****S!”; the rest get banned for saying we have to defend ourselves against those people.
I assume you don’t use it then. I still do, but I’m trying to get away from it. What you just said is completely inaccurate, but that’s understandable if you don’t frequent the site. I have only seen that kind of language used on 4chan.
I’m not a fan of referring to fellow humans who have fallen victim to the endless tirade of conservative propaganda sub-human. It’s very blatantly dehumanizing and promotes division along party lines instead of proletariat unity. We should be focusing on the shitheads pushing that propaganda in the first place. I know that Elon is one of them, but calling all conservatives sub-human because of him is just wrong.
We should instead call all conservatives subhuman because the tenets of whatever the fuck passes for conservative these days are senselessly antagonistic and cruel to the vulnerable among us
One can very easily be both a victim and a perpetrator. If someone is indoctrinated into a cult at a young age and goes on to recruit others, they are both a perpetrator of suffering inflicted on others and a victim of the circumstances imposed on them.
I don’t disagree with you, but at some point, most of these folks are grown ass adults with full cognitive capacity and the same access to information as the rest of us.
It’s a commitment and dedication to wilfull ignorance that is a conscious decision. They make the choice to ignore new information and ignore their own values and hypocrisy. They are 100% responsible for their own actions and treating them as victims invalidates their responsibilities and denies them personal accountability.
I don’t know that I’d call them subhuman, but they are hurting, killing, and oppressing people in active worship to the God of ignorance. These are bad people, and they don’t deserve your defense.
There was a time when you would have been right, but at this point, they are a part of the problem, not a symptom of it.
They are actively voting in and supporting people who are disrupting attempts to mitigate the actual issues. For example, every American should be against gerrymandering, as it is expressly anti-democratic, yet here we are voting in toxic people who are running interference on any effort to combat it.
This should be a bipartisan issue. I lived in Maryland for a long time and my district looked like an electrocuted spider, in favor of the Dems. Republicans should be against this, but here we are slamming our hand into the car door every time we try to make progress.
The people pulling the strings should be held accountable, no question. Pretending that these folks aren’t the problem is nice for diplomacy, but it’s no longer the case.
Trump became the president in 2016 despite losing the election. The system is rotten to its core. Conservatives are definitely not helping and their behavior should be shamed, but it’s crucial not to lose sight of the fact that the ideology they follow was deliberately created and propagated by the 0.001%.
We can hold them responsible for their actions and still recognize that they are victims of indoctrination. However, this would require the same intellectual honesty you chastise them for not having.
Straight to the personal attacks? Not really a great argument, particularly when the rest of it amounts to “NUH UH!!”.
I’m gonna need more than that. @aerolemming and I were having a pretty civil discussion, and I appreciate his points, though I personally disagree with them.
I’m sorry my comment didn’t meet your standards. I’m tired of reading the same intellectually vapid nonsense every day. “Why can’t these evil/ignorant/despicable fools just see the world the way I see it!?” You treat them the same way they treat us and expect them to have some kind of coming-to-jesus moment as a result. IMO, thinking this way requires the same level of cognitive dissonance as being a Trumpster. You need to read the room and see that your method doesn’t solve the problem you want it to solve. It exacerbates it. Instead of crying out to the world, wishing everyone else would do the hard work of expanding their understanding of political theory, history, and philosophy, maybe do that work yourself first.
Can you look beyond the harshness in the tone of my paragraph and take the constructive criticism I’m offering? This is what you’re asking them to do.
It’s weird. You’re asking me to accept constructive criticism, but a) you’re not offering any and b) you’re continuing with the ad hominem, and failing to offer an actual position despite it being very constructive feedback to your argument. You’re calling it “intellectually vapid nonsense” but you’re only offering logical fallacies. You’re just noise and hypocrisy.
My “understanding of political theory, history and philosophy” is backed by a career in the DC and NYC political sphere, including the White House, several campaigns, and extensive work with NPOs/NGOs. I’ve met and worked with 5 US Presidents, and more than 230 congresscritters on both sides of the aisle, and have personal commendations from the CEO, COO, and CTO of the USA so I feel pretty confident that I’ve got a well developed perspective. You’ve seen my work. So please enlighten me.
If you’ll notice in the previous postings, I was able to disagree with others while accepting their positions and without belittling them. Every assertion you’re making now is disproved before you even typed it, so I’m not sure why you’re rattling your cage. If you want to be a part of the discussion, and wish to bring about new information, I’m amenable to change my position, but your post is really just finger wagging and more of “NUH UH!!”.
I’m sorry my comment didn’t meet your standards. I’m tired of reading the same intellectually vapid nonsense every day.
Did you seriously type this passive aggressive nonsense and put it into the world? Do you hear yourself? Do better.
It’s actually not something I really knew about before, the WH gig, but these are actual positions that help to advise the President on specific matters related to their specialties. en.wikipedia.org/…/Chief_Technology_Officer_of_th… (I can’t seem to find the others right now, but if I do, I’ll post them). I did some work on the Open Data Initiative that took it from policy to practical, and received some official recognition for it.
I considered myself a libertarian before I saw how the people on the right reacted to same-sex marriage being legalized. Their collective reaction broke the lie that they were the party of freedom/equality. I spent years deprogramming/re-educating myself. Now I’m very progressive and much more sensitive to biased info sources, but… I’m dating a “conservative”. He’s questioning his political beliefs now due to the right’s resurgence of anti-lgbtq and the conversations we’ve had surrounding that.
Thing is, all humans attach their beliefs/values/principles to the narrative they sell themselves about who they are. We settle into these narratives as we come of age, and constantly reinforce them through our perceptions of our lived experiences. For someone to be able to withstand the process of unraveling and reconstructing who they are on a fundamental level, an extreme event is necessary. Something that shocks them with enough force to break one of the core beliefs of whatever system they’re beholden to.
YOUR PROBLEM is that you lack understanding in this area of human nature. That lack of understanding leads to frustration, resentment, and ultimately the same tribalism you see in the people you choose to hate. You see them as sub-human, automatically elevating yourself above them because your confirmation bias tells you that your version of truth is the only real truth, but you’re too heavily steeped in your own soup to realize that you’re engaging with politics the exact same way they are.
Be better. Hate the swindlers, not the swindled. Don’t tolerate intolerance either. Just gently point out when they’re being intolerant and let them (hopefully) stubble into their own epiphanies.
TL:DR; Confirmation bias is a helluva drug. Your willful ignorance of your own confirmation bias is blinding you and limiting your ability to understand basic human nature. I hope this stimulates a little more thought, with a little more intellectual honesty on your part. Cheers.
I’m a gay progressive that lives in Texas. I’ve lived my entire life surrounded by conservatives and I’m currently dating one. I know exactly what I’m talking about. Learn to examine the beliefs you hold before you criticize others for their inability to do the same.
Those “victims” will gleefully watch you suffer and die. They will smile as your existence becomes illegal. Those “victims” will proudly facilitate your death and, in many cases, will physically participate in committing that murder.
Nearly every act of domestic terrorism in U.S. history has been committed by conservatives. Nearly every act of racism, bigotry, misogyny, xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia and antisemitism in our country is committed by conservafives. They are not the victims, they are the victimizers.
Conservatives have the entirety of the world’s knowledge at their fingertips and access to the world’s foremost experts. Yet, they choose to follow hateful ideologies. They choose to be opposed to education. They choose to condemn scientists and doctors as liars and traitors. Conservatives are not the victims. They are not victims of anything at all.
Have you interacted with conservatives in the real world? Most of them just don’t pay that much attention to politics and don’t realize what they’re voting for. Some of them are fucking insane, sure, but the majority are just disinformed.
To be fair, my interactions with conservatives are mostly limited to people with only moderately conservative opinions.
I was born and raised in the south in a conservative household. I recently retired from a profession completely infested with conservatives. I know conservatism very well, unfortunately.
They know they are voting for bigots. They know they are voting for misogynists. They know they are voting for white nationalists. If they are able to consume media well enough to know what days to vote and where to vote, then they know what these candidates are.
The people you are describing often refer to themselves as “centrists” so they can pretend they aren’t racist, bigoted misogynists like the people they vote for. That is deception. They are deceiving you so you don’t disown them for being vile garbage.
I would add that dehumanizing rhetoric of any kind can become a gateway drug to justifying atrocity. No matter what side you stand on. It can contribute to the radicalization of any group. Nobody is immune to becoming a monster.
Not everyone is willing to do what’s necessary to cure the disease. I am willing. If that makes me a monster, then I am the monster they themselves created.
Conservatism is a plague of oppression and death. It always has been. History has proven time after time that pacifism cannot stop conservatives. We must be willing to do difficult things to survive this kind of deadly infection. Preaching peace is unfortunately not helpful. It placates those who are better served by understanding the danger we are all in and what needs to happen to stop that threat.
I am not arguing in favor of pacifism. I fully recognize the need to defend against harmful ideologies that infect people’s minds with bad ideas. And if those who harbor bad ideas threaten violence then it may be necessary to react in kind. I accept that.
I’m simply saying that it matters what kind of language we use when we talk about it. Calling conservatives, or any opposing side perceived as a violent threat, subhuman creates the misconception that your own side could not ever be in the wrong. In so doing, it is possible that the we too could become infected with the bad idea that “All (insert opposing threat here) must die.” I don’t ever in my life time want to see anything like the Holocaust happen because people couldn’t stop and think that at some point the killing needs to stop, because it’s reached a point where we are no longer defending and only killing out of pure and base fear that the threat will rise up again. There is a point where self defense goes too far and gives rise to genocide. That possibility scares the hell out of me.
You’re still relying on old information. He clarified this. Starlink was never active over crimea. He was asked to activate it and said no as that was part of the restrictions on the deployment and would have been breaking the terms that clarified it as an act of war from the west.
He didn’t shut them off. Access was never active in that region.
Over Ukrainian territory. For defensive purposes. Where it was originally agreed for. Crimea hasn’t been Ukraine for years (even though it should be). Offensives into Russia were not part of any operational original deals.
The individual base station (or whatever) has its service deactivated when it goes to Crimea, which is internationally recognized as Ukrainian territory.
No one but Russian bootlickers think Crimea is part of Russia.
Right. The individual base stations always have had a service region. It’s why I can’t use starlink over international waters and the same thing happens from a fishing boat or anything. There’s no purposeful deactivations. Just boundaries of service already established.
It’s literally part of the service when you sign up.
You’re right that technically he could provide coverage anywhere in the world. There’s lots of reasons he doesn’t. But that’s always been part of the service.
18 UNcountries recognize it as Russian territory. Some of them large superpowers or economic hubs. Including one that’s expected to launch starlink soon. (Though all generally shitty countries.)
But aside from that. The rules for supplying things to Ukraine were spelled out very clearly. It’s why none of the Western supplies hsve been used in Russian territory attacks. Doing so Russia claimed it would retaliate.
The articles are claiming that he intentionally turned it off when it was originally on and that’s not the case. It was never active there.
Look if you want to play semantics, fine. The most finite definition is that starlink satellites deactivate every time they pass over Crimea. He actively contributes to russias strike capabilities on a daily basis. It’s far worse than the story, not better.
Won’t matter when Ukraine creates their own capabilities, but fuck musk just the same.
Musk is beholden to various international laws when providing this coverage. Like it or not Russia considers crimea their territory and would not respond kindly to musk allowing it’s use over their territory.
Like I love how everyone just expects this dude to just as a civilian piss off a nation who can shoot his satellites down or consider it an act of war on his own.
Yes. However Russia has claimed it years before this conflict and threatened retaliation if westerners interfere. It’s why all of the supplies we give are only used in Ukraine. The attacks on Russian soil are not with Western supplies intentionally and this would be no different.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding please correct me. Crimea was annexed by Russia in 2014 no? The current crisis started much later than that no? (Even though technically many consider them connected for obvious reasons.)
Missiles and satellite arrays have no similarities in the way they technologically function. So this argument doesn’t actually hold any water. Elon musk is the operator of the starlink. Ukraine does not operate starlink satellites. Ukraine operates the missiles we GIVE to them. Meaning the baton of ownership has been passed off from the united states to Ukraine. The Ukrainian operators then have the autonomy to do with that as they see fit. This is why we give Ukraine guns and bullets but we dont give them the human soldier to fire them. Because this implicates direct US involvement in an offensive strike against Russia. In June 2023 starlink won contract with the pentagon. Meaning elon musk and starlink are acting as agents of the united states government and as such as bound by very similar rules of engagement that the normal US military is. The difference between giving them missiles and starlink is that we can’t just say “here are your very own satellites that you have the keys and drivers wheel to and they belong to you now”
You do realize starlink has always had regional and location based activation for multitudes of reasons. Including laws of said countries.
Yes. It’s deactivated over crimea. It always was.
Similar to how it stopped functioning if you tried to use it in international waters.
If you get starlink location of use is included in the setup. Which is why you can’t just slap it onto a boat or something. (though they do now sell a starlink with that functionality)
This is a really misleading title if it’s just grouping places where people were imprisoned with places people were actually tortured. There’s obviously a massive difference. This seems like the original article in Ukrainian: mvs.gov.ua/…/pid-cas-zustrici-iz-specialnoiu-dopo…
Are they actually saying people were definitely tortured in all 80 places there? (Also kind of funny, Google Translate seems to do a better job than the link in OP but it’s still not clear to me exactly what they meant.)
I would be extremely careful about these claims from Ukrainian officials. They showed before that they are capable of anything to have attention of mainstream press and western countries. It’s propaganda on both ends - Russian and Ukrainian.
Both propagandas are bad. They obviously want to make themselves look better than the other and the other as bad as it gets. This kind of information war is a basic instrument in wars since Americans invented it.
To your question that both are bad… Russian are killing people which is bad but to say that Ukrainian soldiers are good and that Ukrainians were saint nation before the war is a false statement as well.
From my point of view Ukraine is just a victim of global politics. To blame only Russia for this development is not fair cause Americans pushed them to this.
When USA attacked Iraq everyone was praising them and not placing sanctions against them even though that all reasons they provided to attack were intentionally falsified. And millions of civilians died and were tortured. But it’s middle east so why would west care, right?!
Russia and the US are trying to do the exact same thing to Eastern Europe right now. Just because the US claims “this is for democracy” doesn’t make it better. Also, the US recognizes Taiwan as an island beloning to China, they just hold informal agreements for the sake of military and tech, like chips or manufacturing.
Propaganda is “bad” but that does not mean everything is of equal weight. Killing people is bad but that doesn’t mean killing unprovoked is equal to killing in self defense. That doesn’t mean they’re even similar.
You’re the type of idiot that would be living in Africa during the 1910s holding arguments about whether Germany or the US is better, while refusing to let anyone speak up about them both being awful.
And that is why I am against forcing Ukraine to accept lost territory. If you let russia keep territory it has currently occupied, they will get away with all the torture, killing and abduction of civilians.
Russians have a history of doing this. And russians also have a history of having useful stooges spreading "both-sides-ism" and similar nonsense. What are you?
I thought I replied to nostradiel above who was stating "I would be extremely careful about these claims from Ukrainian officials. They showed before that they are capable of anything to have attention of mainstream press and western countries. It’s propaganda on both ends - Russian and Ukrainian."
For some reason my reply ended up under Quacksalber, which is not what I intended. I thought I was careful before, but maybe I did not pay enough attention to where I replied to. I am not willing to call this a kbin bug yet, maybe I did not pay attention.
One thing I’ve noticed (at least in the Jerboa app) is when a comment is removed or deleted it’s replies get displayed on another comment. Seemingly consistently the same wrong comment even on refreshing the page, it’s weird.
Given what happened in Bucha and the constant shelling and targeted attacks on civilians, this is entirely believable. Whether this story is true or not is another matter and it should be verified, but it wouldn’t be surprising.
ukrinform.net
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