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FundMECFSResearch , to world in IDF destroys Hamas arms production plant, launchers found in humanitarian areas

Would be nice to see this reported from a source impartial in the conflict.

I’m guessing it’s what the IDF says. But I don’t trust what the IDF says much more than I trust what Hamas says.

catloaf ,

I clicked so you don’t have to. It’s all “the IDF said”. No independent verification.

Actually, it’s almost funny, they repeat all the stuff the IDF is saying, and the only thing they label as “cannot be independently verified” is the Palestinian death toll.

MediaBiasFactChecker Bot , to world in US slams Smotrich for opposing Gaza ceasefire deal: 'Jeopardizing' the hostages

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Gsus4 , to world in Amid global criticism, Israel names 19 it says it killed in terror HQ at Gaza school
@Gsus4@mander.xyz avatar

How many HQs does hamas have?

Blue0x ,

How many schools, hospitals, and refugee camps are there in Gaza?

jonne ,

If it’s got walls and a roof it’s a Hamas HQ.

Threeme2189 OP ,

One less

mozz , to world in Amid global criticism, Israel names 19 it says it killed in terror HQ at Gaza school
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

raises hand

Question

Does that mean that if Likud has a headquarters near some civilian installation, that it's okay to blow it up and the civilians along with it?

(Not that I necessarily believe that Hamas had a command center next to all of the children, but even if they did, I don't think that automatically means that blowing up all the children in the school becomes okay)

count_dongulus ,

That’s…Hamas doctrine. They use civilians as human shields to avoid western attacks. Israel is notably different in their approach where they have basically decided to ignore human shield attempts in order to more effectively counter Hamas. Arguably, if it never works and Hamas fighters get killed anyway, Hamas might stop doing it because being amongst civilians means there are a lot of people who can inform on where Hamas militants are and what they’re doing. I suspect most civilians there support Hamas though, so it probably won’t change Hamas doctrine.

In Afghanistan by contrast, the US worked with various tribal elders who didn’t support al-Qaeda. This information allowed US forces to counter human shield tactics in those areas and fighters increasingly moved out to the remote regions so civilians couldn’t inform the US where they were.

small44 ,

It’s israel who’s been using palestinian as humanshield with videos to prove it

count_dongulus ,

Well, Hamas kidnapped several hundred civilians from a music festival to use as hostages before Israel militarily invaded Gaza. Or is that fake news?

SuckMyWang ,

That not helpful to the narrative that Hamas who are made up of Palestinians and supported by Palestinian people are pure and innocent

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Like that didn’t have historical context. Genocide already occurring next to a damn music festival.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Two whole groups of people can be bad at the same time

Hamas is horrifying villains, and Israel’s government and military are horrifying villains. There is room for all

small44 ,

The west bank is illegally occupied that mean every single west banker arrested by israel was kidnapped. We also know how palestinian prisoners are treated.

sirboozebum ,

You can tell this guy would rape Palestinian prisoners if he could.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

The one time the UN looked in detail into this theory, it turned out it was crap. Hamas and civilians are sometimes next to each other just because they all live in Palestine, but the claimed thing where they would deliberately gather up some civilians and have them stand next to their installation, as if this would deter the Israelis or as if there was any shortage of non-artificial civilian casualties and so it was useful on any level to create some artificially, was it turned out a bunch of hooey.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar

The Israeli army has used Palestinian civilians as human shields, deliberately putting them in strategic places and in front of military targets, in an attempt to prevent attacks, fortify its forces in the Gaza Strip, facilitate its military operations and obstruct corresponding military operations. When conducting ground incursions and military attacks, the Israeli army purposefully used Palestinian civilians to guard its forces’ assembly points. It also made them step in front of military vehicles when it stormed homes and buildings it thought were booby-trapped.

reliefweb.int/…/israeli-armys-use-palestinian-civ…

Israel are a terrorist state.

Doorbook ,

You are gross because you repeat the same broken record. Hamas is using human shield, which is not true, and even then justifying murdering of children and deflecting the reality that the goal is a genocide of Palestinian youth !

jonne ,

If you want to apply the same ratios the IDF uses when it comes to civilian casualties, Hamas comes out way better on Oct 7. The majority of the hostages and victims were IDF personnel.

Threeme2189 OP ,

Where did you get that information?

theacharnian , (edited )
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

Wikipedia: 1,180 killed[18][c][d] 797 civilians,[e] including 36 children[f] 379 security forces[19]

For sources cited (they are legit), see …wikipedia.org/…/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel

Basically, the unacceptable and disgusting Hamas terror attack had a 32% legitimate targets to total hits ratio

Edit:

Or you can say that for every 1 legitimate target they also killed 2 illegitimate ones.

That of course does not mean that killing of legitimate targets cannot be a war crime (eg when they surrender).

But for the IDF to not be comparable to an abominable terror group, the ratios should be much different. And if we are to accept the “most moral army” thing, the ratio should be radically different (angel vs devil comparison).

Is it?

Threeme2189 OP ,

The Likud isn’t a military organization, that’s the IDF job. So… No.

BNE ,
@BNE@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Neither were the churches. Or the hospitals. Or the UN facilities. Or the Schools. Or the desalination plant. Or the tents filled with refugees. Or the graves of Australian soldiers. Or Palestinian civilians. Or the greenhouses.

Do you understand?

FlyingSquid , to world in Amid global criticism, Israel names 19 it says it killed in terror HQ at Gaza school
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Well that makes up for the other 81 dead.

Oh wait, no it doesn’t at all.

jonne ,

I think their AI targeting machine was programmed to accept a 1 to 100 ratio of Hamas vs civilians. I guess stuff like that makes them the most moral army in the world.

BeatTakeshi ,
@BeatTakeshi@lemmy.world avatar

Which is expected from the only democracy in this barbaric part of the world amirite

Gsus4 ,
@Gsus4@mander.xyz avatar

They are still a democracy until the fascists in power take over the judicial (bibi was trying) and cancel elections altogether. The left and the army want bibi to go. However, the government can’t fall, because bibi doesn’t want to go to jail and the ultraorthodox far-right will collapse government if there is a cease-fire…meanwhile Israel can’t be pressured from the outside because the US has bipartisan unconditional support and the EU is MIA…threats by Iran only embolden bibi to start a fight so they can destroy Iran’s nuclear tech…

Either the army rebels and demands new elections🙄…or someone amnisties bibi on condition of him calling new elections and going into exile😑 …I’m making shit up at this point…

BNE ,
@BNE@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Oh mate - that just would make them authoritarians. They’re already fascist.

RangerJosie ,

Whether there were any legitimate targets is entirely inconsequential. They’re after a body count. Nothing more. They just wanna stack corpses.

Threeme2189 OP , (edited )

As of now the Palestinian health authorities haven’t released the names of those 81 that are allegedly dead. Usually they don’t take long at all. In the meantime the IDF has released the 19 terrorists that totally weren’t hiding inside a school and are now dead. I assume most of those 81 don’t exist.

roboto ,

Are you okay?

Threeme2189 OP ,

Sure, you?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Why do you need to see a list of dead people’s names as if people aren’t dying when there’s a war going on?

Threeme2189 OP ,

Hamas is known to inflate the number of dead and injured, cry wolf over and over and, in general, lie in order to make Israel and The IDF look bad. All while painting themselves as poor, innocent sheep.

The first thing they did was to accuse The IDF of killing over 100 children by dropping a 2 ton bomb in the middle of a school.

As we can see, neither the number of dead, the munitions used or the demography that was targeted (Hamas militants vs children) are factually correct.

We are, in fact, at war with a terrorist organization. Targeting them while trying to minimize civilian casualties is acceptable and is what’s actually happening.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It’s “known” that Tim Walz quit the military so he couldn’t see combat, even though that isn’t true.

That’s the thing about stuff that is “known.”

MediaBiasFactChecker Bot , to world in White House “deeply concerned” about civilian casualties after the IDF said it had struck a command room that terror operatives set up at a Gaza City school where displaced Palestinian civilians were

Times of Israel - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)Information for Times of Israel:
> MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: High - Israel
> Wikipedia about this source

Search topics on Ground.Newshttps://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/white-house-deeply-concerned-about-civilian-casualties-in-idf-strike-on-terror-operatives-at-gaza-school/

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FlyingSquid , to world in White House “deeply concerned” about civilian casualties after the IDF said it had struck a command room that terror operatives set up at a Gaza City school where displaced Palestinian civilians were
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

As long as they’re deeply concerned.

floofloof ,

Maybe they’ll delay the next shipment of weapons by five minutes while they feel that concern.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

They’ll probably be so concerned they’ll send them faster.

occhionaut ,

“C-cmon guys, at least dont let anybody see! Guys??”

FrowingFostek , to world in White House “deeply concerned” about civilian casualties after the IDF said it had struck a command room that terror operatives set up at a Gaza City school where displaced Palestinian civilians were

The real answer is an arms embargo, until Israel is no longer an apartheid state. One state, full rights for all.

T00l_shed ,

Arms embargo is part of it for sure. But more would need to be done. Sanctions, peace keepers, and embargos would be a good first step.

FrowingFostek ,

Agreed, anything other than what is currently going on.

BeatTakeshi ,
@BeatTakeshi@lemmy.world avatar

Two states, full rights for all in both

FrowingFostek ,

No thanks

LotrOrc ,

Ew

FrowingFostek ,

One state, no Jim crow bullshit

LotrOrc ,

Ah that’s fair I would agree with that but I don’t think 99% of Israelis would.

WanderingVentra ,

You got us in the first half lol

BNE ,
@BNE@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Israel is a violent settler apartheid. No.

BeatTakeshi ,
@BeatTakeshi@lemmy.world avatar

They wouldn’t be if they ensured full (and equal) rights to all its citizens. It’s delusional to think the situation would ever go back to that of before 1947

OlinOfTheHillPeople ,

So they can buy them from Russia and China instead, without any of the stipulations that the US requires? That’s a very quick way to make Palestine disappear off the planet, while also losing a powerful ally to hostile states.

FrowingFostek ,

What in the ever living fuck are you talking about?

Let Israel align themselves with those countries, it’ll be their political decline on the world stage. “Stipulations”

Israel is only powerful because the united States government supplies them with arms and protection.

One state solution.

OlinOfTheHillPeople ,

Believe it or not, this is still Israel restraining itself. A full arms embargo would guarantee that they wipe Palestine off the face of the earth. This is not an opinion, it is an objective geopolitical fact.

Edit: This would also likely lead to Israel selling weapons to Russia to use against Ukraine. Their domestic weapons industry is massive.

FrowingFostek ,

I don’t believe it. Israel is a fascist state because of the Likud, they will stop this genocide if the US applies ANY political pressure. Destroying the far right in the Knesset will lead to a more egalitarian Israel.

OlinOfTheHillPeople ,

What in the last 75 years makes you think that?

Are you completely unaware of the political pressure that has already been applied? Or how it worked the last dozen times that Israel and Palestine have gone to war? Do you think that weapons are the only thing that Israel needs from the US?

Destroying the far right in the Knesset will lead to a more egalitarian Israel.

This part is dead on, but again, the US has no control there.

FrowingFostek ,

As much as I hate the guy, Reagan did it. I gotta go wash my hand after typing this.

He tempered Israel the first time, the current or future administrations can do the same.

LotrOrc ,

How? Where are they going to get all these weapons? Russia doesn’t have enough to give them. They’re not gonna buy from Iran. Maybe china but china most likely will not want to back Israel. And if the US and it’s allies say they’re done with this Israel isn’t going to attack anyone because the US would just sit back and let Hezbollah and Iran do what they want

Maggoty ,

A powerful ally? Really? One we need to prop up with 3 billion in aid every year?

anas ,

What stipulations?

T00l_shed , to world in White House “deeply concerned” about civilian casualties after the IDF said it had struck a command room that terror operatives set up at a Gaza City school where displaced Palestinian civilians were

Great, now fucking do something about it. Tots and pears is just as effective here as it is when a school is shot up. Fix it ya fuckwits.

vanontom ,
@vanontom@lemmy.world avatar

Literally anything. It seems “They’ve tried (almost) nothing, and they’re all out of ideas!” This is such a mind-boggling fuckup from Biden. Probably the biggest of his presidency.

Israel is run by out-of-control extremists and racists (much like T**** regime). Who will justify any killing, because “they’re in danger” (also sounds familiar). Biden is seemingly vetoing his own advisors, as Netanyahu continually kills civilians, Israeli hostages, and chance after chance at a ceasefire.

I really hope Harris has a more intelligent approach. It wouldn’t take much.

BeatTakeshi , to world in White House “deeply concerned” about civilian casualties after the IDF said it had struck a command room that terror operatives set up at a Gaza City school where displaced Palestinian civilians were
@BeatTakeshi@lemmy.world avatar

Who are the terror operatives please because I am confused

wetnoodle , to world in White House “deeply concerned” about civilian casualties after the IDF said it had struck a command room that terror operatives set up at a Gaza City school where displaced Palestinian civilians were
@wetnoodle@sopuli.xyz avatar

I’m sure the civilians bombed with American missiles appreciate the white houses concern

RangerJosie , to world in White House “deeply concerned” about civilian casualties after the IDF said it had struck a command room that terror operatives set up at a Gaza City school where displaced Palestinian civilians were

Obviously not concerned enough to stop it.

APassenger ,

Or to stop providing weapons.

FuglyDuck , (edited )
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

I’m kind of curious as to where Biden will draw the line.

I mean, seriously. Netanyahu has strung him along on the ceasefire and everything else, including lying to Biden’s face, while bombing civilians.

At what point, do you look at the “leash” our aid represents and start yanking?

qprimed ,

all important^1^ parties to this slaughter are in perfect agreement with each other. all of this has been normal and within acceptable parameters.

^1^ non-Palestinians

APassenger ,

Biden won’t. He was willing to throw the US to an autocrat for Israel.

He has no discernible line. Or if he does, his priorities are absolutely wonky.

h3mlocke , to world in White House “deeply concerned” about civilian casualties after the IDF said it had struck a command room that terror operatives set up at a Gaza City school where displaced Palestinian civilians were

Yeah they seem “deeply concerned”

Bookmeat , to world in White House “deeply concerned” about civilian casualties after the IDF said it had struck a command room that terror operatives set up at a Gaza City school where displaced Palestinian civilians were

Oh, thank goodness they’re concerned! I feel better now.

SpicyLizards , to world in White House “deeply concerned” about civilian casualties after the IDF said it had struck a command room that terror operatives set up at a Gaza City school where displaced Palestinian civilians were

“Deep concern” is as effective as “thoughts and prayers” when you supply unlimited funds and support to the genociders.

douglasg14b ,
@douglasg14b@lemmy.world avatar

Seriously. This is such a shit situation.

The U.S. is between a rock and a hard place with Israel being the only friendly foothold in the Middle East with ports. Which enables a ton of power projection over “things” the U.S. cares about.

But then Israel is now an entity that we don’t want to associate with. But we can’t just let them shit the bed and allow a multi-state war with nuclear powers to take place either.

The later will hurt the U.S. in tangible ways, for decades to come.

So what do you do? Do you knowingly cause damage the security interests of country, or do you follow the social/societal expectations that we don’t just fucking kill innocent civilians and let Israel eat the lunch they made… Indirectly enabling a war which you will get drug into regardless?

Shit sucks, everywhere. And Israel are being the baddies, while the U.S. is enabling it.

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