So if we perceive a fetus as a person, self defense laws and stand your ground laws should apply right?
Like, if the threat is persistent and reasonably considered to be causing bodily harm, then reasonable escalating force, up to lethal, should be legal correct? Intent and innocence of the perps intentions does not absolve them in court of law… So if we consider the fetus a person and they are causing harm without stopping when prompted the mother should be legally afforded to defend herself, no?
If you think about it, isnt all law about creative and novel ways to twist wording to get around it?
If we couldnt bend the law to our will there would only be one law and it would be: ‘dont be a cunt’.
This is the truth. Not even a full grown person, not even your just-born child, no one can compel you to give your blood to save their life much less to keep them alive inside your own body for nine months.
If they think a fetus has the same right to life as any person, they are free to help it survive using their own resources, just get it the fuck out of my body first.
Would you be okay with charging a 5-year-old child with assault if a dad threw the kid at his mom without the kid wanting that? The kid didn’t choose to be thrown at his mom, but collided with her regardless. Similarly, the fetus didn’t choose to be conceived, but exists nonetheless.
What exactly is the fallacy here? The point is that if the child has done nothing of its own choice to harm its mother, then the fetus cannot be held responsible either.
I don’t understand why the five year old would have any charges against it in that scenario, they too were a victim. From the moment they were tossed, any forthcoming damages and assaults are placed on the person chucking said child.
Right, I agree. And so, would you say that a fetus, which did not choose to be conceived or sustained in any way in the mother, should be held responsible for any harm (however you define that) that comes to the mother as a result of the pregnancy? If so, then you should also hold the child responsible because it struck and harmed its mother, even though it didn’t do so by choice.
In that case, the child thrown at its mother is guilty of assault because it harmed her by colliding with her. The child would be subject to self-defense rules and could rightly have been shot out of the air like a clay pigeon.
So if a five-year-old can’t be held responsible and killed for hitting its mother by being thrown at her, because it was the dad who threw it, then how can a fetus be held responsible and killed for existing and causing harm to the mother, even though it never chose to exist at all and was conceived by another person?
Because a fetus isn’t a person. Until birth it is considered a part of the mother, specifically to prevent stupid and unsustainable rulings like this one. If your mother was killed by cancer, are you going to take her tumor to court and put it in prison? No, you wouldn’t, that would be ridiculous. Because a tumor can’t choose its actions. Neither can a fetus.
After development and birth, when the child can think and act for itself, sure it’s a person. Inside the womb? It is an organ, it acts and thinks like an organ (by which I mean, it doesn’t) and can hold no legal responsibility for anything because it is not a thinking being.
Do I find this to be sad? Sure, absolutely. I’d prefer every fetus in the world to be loved and wanted and born without complication into a life of ease. But you and I both know very well that that is not the reality of the world.
The entire argument here is that if we consider a fetus a person, then we should apply self-defense laws to pregnancies. I’m pointing out why “self defense” against a person who has done literally nothing is ridiculous. I was writing my previous posts under the assumption that a fetus is a person, the same as in the original post.
But I also believe that there’s no point in drawing arbitrary lines in the sand where a human organism/being/whatever you’d like to call it becomes a person. The minute you do that, it opens the door to whoever is writing the rules this week to decide things like “humans who are in a coma aren’t people anymore” or “humans without a certain level of intellectual ability aren’t people.” That isn’t a level of authority that I would entrust to any mortal human being. Would you?
Organs are components of an organism that support its life functions. A fetus is not a component of an organism, but is an organism unto itself. If it were an organ, then it would be something a woman is born with and develops naturally as she grows. Women are born with egg cells, true, but they don’t become fetuses until they are fertilized and undergo a degree of development.
The entire argument here is that if we consider a fetus a person, then we should apply self-defense laws to pregnancies.
That is certainly one part of the issue here.
Dont get me wrong here, I do absolutely understand your viewpoint here I think. Especially as regards the slope that lawmakers can use to slip down. This is a tricky and nuanced subject, which is why I’m largely in favor of leaving it the fuck alone. That’s kind of the context of the entire post that we’re debating in the comments of. If a fetus becomes legally declared to be a distinct person then suddenly half our legal code can be used in absurd and self-inconsistent ways. Currently that is not the case but some people very much want it to be that way.
Personally, I say a person becomes a person when they prove themselves an independent thinking being and they retain that status until their death. Babies, generally speaking, become independent thinking beings upon birth. Before that they are still biologically attached to the mother, thus not independent and therefore subject to the will of her person, and after that they move and think on their own and have become their own being. A person who is in an unresponsive coma is still considered a person because they attained personhood and have not yet died, but even today there are legal loopholes for family to decline further care for the comatose person. That probably won’t change. If your family has hope for you you’ll stay alive and if they don’t then they can order your death, I don’t really see how you get around that in a world where comas still happen.
Right now we have a shaky, but stable enough legal framework around this sort of thing that’s been put together over a couple hundred years of people thinking about this. But if we go poking at things that are core to the legal code, such as “what is a person”, things start falling off of it.
Bad analogy. The father would be charged with assault on the kid and the woman in your scenario. Also, no one reasonable thinks a five year old and a fetus are the same, which is why these laws are fucking ridiculous.
The discussion here is founded upon the assumption that a fetus is a person. The OP’s argument is that if that’s true, then self defense laws apply and the woman should be able to defend herself from the fetus by whatever means necessary to prevent harm. But the fetus can’t choose to do anything, so killing it in self defense would only make sense if you could also kill the five year old who was thrown at its mother.
Roe v. Wade came into existence as Biden’s career was taking off fifty years ago
it has now been two years since Roe v. Wade fell and if it took fifty years to for it to fall then we may have a long time to wait for our rights to be restored
this will just be some campaign promise for either side to exploit and asks donations on whether to keep things restricted or to restore rights eventually
US citizens need to wake up and realize both side are just empty promises and words we need actual leadership in the Senate, the Congress, The Presidency, and the rest of the government
Lol, why do you people always force everything into a false dichotomy? If you have a problem with the statement, at least confront the actual argument being put forward.
Nothing they said is false, the Democrats over the last couple decades have slid further and further to the right, mostly because they care more about economic policy and decorum than protecting people’s rights.
Are they better than the Republicans, of course. But that doesn’t mean we can’t be critical when assessing if they’ve met our expectations. Saying both parties need better leadership is just stating the obvious, it doesn’t mean this person’s urging people to not vote, or to vote for the worse party.
This country is in for some rough years if our only qualifications for leadership positions is just being better than Republicans, that bar is too low.
What dichotomy? I asked who they are canvassing for. You do know people have to canvass for a candidate in order for them to get elected, right? If you want a better candidate than what is offered, they aren’t going to magic themselves into office. Campaigns take work.
I take it neither of you are canvassing for anyone and are just hoping you’ll get what you want by wishing for it.
No, they don’t understand. They’d rather just sit in their basements and complain on the Internet rather than get out into the light and actually try to effect the change they wish to see.
Lol, I’ve been a district delegate for the DNC in one of the most conservative states in America… What have you done?
This is why I asked how canvassing was related to the original claim, as we are now focusing on the strawman argument instead of actually addressing the criticism in question.
Considering he is one of the most active users in this online community, I’m guessing your description of standby basement dweller is more accurate for flyingsquid than anyone else here. Doing memes and drowning out criticism online with flawed rhetoric is not the same as political organizing.
So the only people who are able to be critical of their elected officials are people who have the leisure time and the resources to work for political parties for free?
take it neither of you are canvassing for anyone and are just hoping you’ll get what you want by wishing for it.
First of all, this is a strawman argument. It has nothing to do with the original claim, which you didn’t ever address. Secondly, I have served as a district delegate for the DNC in my state, and you have an optimistic view of how much actual choice is actually provided to voters.
Candidates don’t just say I want to be a state senator, sign me up. They go through a vetting process of the state’s political party, and each DNC chapter has its own means to determine which candidates they throw their weight behind. Depending on where you are, unless you have seniority in the local chapter you don’t really have a choice on who you canvas for.
He asked the person he originally responded too, not me. I’m just asking how it’s a relevant question… which he is going through great lengths to avoid answering.
A question completely unrelated to the statement? What is the purpose of the question…ahh yes, to set up a strawman argument to distract from the original statement. That’s a shitty rebuttal, but it’s still a rebuttal, or at least building up to one.
One you have not answered. And yet you expect me to answer yours.
You never asked me, you asked op. Also, Im not the one who thinks you have to work for the party you vote for to criticize them in a public forum. Lastly, I doubt someone as terminally online as yourself has enough time to canvass in the first place.
problem here is you’re trying to argue with someone who asked a question.
The problem here is that your question isn’t relevant to the statement and it’s only purpose is to distract from the valid criticisms withing the original claim.
The problem is that your only response has been to attempt to lull people into a debate revolving around a logical fallacy.
Lol, I can’t answer a question for someone else. I asked the same question to you and you are unwilling to answer. Why expect anything else from op?
If you were to ask me… I would say that I don’t canvass for national elections as I live in the most conservative state in the Union, but i do get involved for state and municipal elections. As I already said, I have served a term as a district delegate.
So, now that your “question” has been fulfilled, why ask in the first place, and how is it relative to the original statement? And, who are you canvassing for?
Let me guess, the answer is going to be based on another logical fallacy?
Because they have spent months and months telling us who not to vote for without giving us any alternatives.
Again, the best way to confront that is by confronting the claim. Not by just insinuating that they’ve failed some kind of loyalty test.
In their argument they made valid points which shouldn’t just be brushed aside or excused without reason. It just makes it seem as if you are ignoring the criticism to the same extent that conservatives do for trump.
There’s been an alarming popularization of conflating valid and invalid criticism against politicians. Instead of Democrats rejecting the demagoguery the GOP utilizes to lead their constituents the DNC has been adopting their tactics. Which is ultimately a goal of fascist movements everywhere.
may possibly be that you don’t know the whole story here.
And how many people who see your argument are going to “know the whole story”? They’re just going to see that criticism can be ignored if you utilize the right logical fallacy.
I hope you don’t gaslight the people in your life as much as you attempt to do to people on the internet. Otherwise you’re going to be a lonely and old before you know it.
But let’s not pretend that you have attempted to be anything resembling honest during this engagement.
Lol, my dude. Your whole argument was to perpetuate a strawman argument. Then to be dishonest about the motivation of your strawman argument, and then to accuse me of lying for pointing it out.
You don’t remember the whole, I’m not making a rebuttal, I’m asking a question? And then later claiming that you confronted their claim…which would have been a rebuttal.
This whole time you’ve done nothing but been academically dishonest, and then you have the audacity to accuse me of lying… Pretty gaslightly to me fam. I mean you still haven’t answered the question you demand from others, and haven’t explained how that question is relevant.
Lol, you said you didn’t care about your influence teaching people to disregard criticism via logical fallacy. I think that makes your motivations selfish in nature.
Opinions you don’t agree with aren’t lies, your hurt feelings don’t dictate what is and isn’t true.
Another dishonest rebuttal.
I’m not going to address the rest of your post.
Great, go kick rocks for all I care. Some fresh air would probably do you some good anyways.
Lol, interpreting someone’s motives is a matter of opinion. I can’t scientifically prove your motivations were virtue signalling and stroking your own ego, and you can’t scientifically prove they weren’t your motivations.
am not going to address the rest of your post.
Still waiting for you to shut up… Please, be my guest.
Ahh, I was hoping it was “I won’t be responding to any further post”. That one’s on me, guess I was being optimistic.
Though it is strange that you would suddenly start saying you’re ignoring certain aspects of the post, when you’ve been ignoring most of the argument the whole time.
This is becoming quite gaslighty
Unoriginal and a liar, what a catch you are! I bet you have to beat suitors off with a stick anytime you leave your goon cave.
now you’re doing the “I’m rubber, you’re glue” thing
Just giving you a taste of your own medicine… No reason to be honest to a person who is obviously not interested in an honest conversation. This is a foreseeable conclusion when relying so heavily on arguments.
If someone’s been dishonest with you and you explain step by step how, and they still continue with the same line of reasoning. Then they don’t deserve the time it takes to make an honest response.
As I said, I’m just utilizing your line of reasoning. If you want honest answers, maybe start by being honest.
Still haven’t heard who you’re canvassing for, or why it’s relevant to the original claim. Until you answer that, I’m just gonna keep the convo to your level of integrity.
The thread started as a series of criticisms, it devolved into “who you wit?” because of a strawman argument. One that I’ve been pointing at the whole time.
But, it seems people like yourself are just extremely susceptible to arguments based on logical fallacy that suit your innate biases.
Good you have fun spotting logical fallacies left and right, and it’s admirable you say “Come up here and let’s do proper discourse” (yes I know you didn’t say it, but I wish you did),
And like some professor: Class have you all read the chapters on modal logic? Please if you spot a tautology, put it in the binder.
Good day to you, I need to get back to my doom scrolling and cat video’s
But what if the fetus told the pregnant woman it would kill her and itself if she doesn’t kill her husband. Afraid of dying and losing her fetus she kills her husband.
Let’s say the fetus gets a death sentence because obviously this person initiated everything. Would they wait for it to be born before killing it? Or would they kill it before birth what would be basically an abortion. But abortions are outlawed…
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Theres are FOSS software on F-Droid that I’ve seen (Bluemoon, Drip, Periodical), but as someone who doesn’t have periods I don’t know how they compare to non-FOSS alternatives.
Surely there are fully offline and open source solutions to this right?
Edit: Yes there are. I dont menstruate and dont know enough details to check if this is a good app, but it looks very well made and clean. Its also available on all platforms and from Fdroid.
If you use a sufficiently good passphrase on your degoogled phone, they cant bruteforce their way in, even with NSO group tools. Trying to come up with your own code is just foolish.
Yeah, I generally agree. Offline encryption with a PIN is the way to go if you’re worried (and you probably should be). If they try to make you unlock it, you can forget the pin, biometrics don’t have that advantage.
Unfortunately I don’t have the links any more, but I did some research and there are some good privacy-focused apps for this. I recall seeing some with features specifically to prevent unauthorized access and with emergency data shredding functionality. I think I saw one that would cleverly create random realistic data if accessed incorrectly.
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