It’s more that blending doesn’t actually fix the issues with Capitalism. That’s a take by someone who doesn’t actually know why Socialists are Socialists and Communists and just heard about Social Democrscy.
I think people confuse “liberal society” with “liberal capitalism” and think if you have 100% socialism then you don’t even own a toothbrush or something
I actually really enjoy a lot of the facets of socialism and communism… Most people would easily mistake my independent political position as “left”, especially since I strongly oppose the current GOP.
But here in Lemmygrad, I am apparently quite the villain for suggesting some extremist, far-left policies are toxic.
The political spectrum is a circle. Extremists might latch on to different BS but personality types of extremists on all ends are essentially the same. Loud hateful aggressive assholes lacking the intelligence to understand nuance.
Yea, that’s more of a self-report on your end if you can’t comprehend nuance and think absolute rejection of classist hierarchy and absolute adherence to classist hierarchy are the same positions.
Perfect example above of not being able to read or understand nuance.
Yea, that’s more of a self-report on your end if you can’t comprehend nuance and think absolute rejection of classist hierarchy and absolute adherence to classist hierarchy** are the same positions**.
Extremists might latch on to different BS but personality types of extremists on all ends are essentially the same.
If you tried actually reading, you would have noticed how I in fact said the exact opposite. I never claimed they were the same, I specifically mentioned they may latch on to different things/positions. What I said instead was that they had the same personality type.
No actually I am most definitely correct. You are either just too biased to accept it or can’t separate viewpoints from personality types and behaviours.
Nah, you’re just a centrist who’s too privileged to actually care about politics, and thinks making blanket statements from a high horse makes you look good.
News flash: it makes you look even more privileged and ignorant.
There we go, perfect example of extremists making discriminatory statements and unable to engage in discussion. I care about politics plenty, I just don’t subscribe to one dimensional propaganda not supported by data.
Protip: attacking everyone who doesn’t share your extremist and hateful views doesn’t really make you look any better or change their mind. But I do get it gives you an outlet to be channel all your hate and blame others when you are just too dumb to understand nuance.
They took the time to specifically explain to you multiple times that they are in no way saying both sides are the same. You simply aren’t listening.
I have a family member that does this. They refuse to speak ill of Donald Trump. They are extremely right leaning, and they are always making assumptions about others.
Just because you can’t differentiate between what a personality type is and what beliefs and positions are doesn’t mean that statement isn’t true. You just seem to conflate political positions with behaviour itself.
I absolutely can, that’s a horribly bad-faith interpretation of my point. Personalities among Communists and fascists are completely different, and if you have touched grass you would know that. Unless you’re so privileged you’ve never had to care, of course.
That is absolutely not a bad faith interpretation but rather a clear reading of what you have said so far. If you cannot see the similarities in communist and fascist methodologies and execution, both historically and looking at the current climate, you are not assessing it objectively. Both communists and fascists have utilized repression, non democratic governance, torture, and killed millions of civilians who have the audacity to challenge their extremist views. Similarly with this discussion thread being a perfect example, both communists and fascists react negatively to any and all criticism and works hard to brigade and shutdown any discussion that might be contrary to their views.
Yea, that’s not at all what has happened historically. Democratic, Capitalist countries have killed millions of civilians with the audacity to challenge their extremist views too, does that mean they are as bad as fascism? Fuck no. Equating Communism to fascism is fascist apologia, because historically Communists have not been nearly as bad as fascists.
Again you should try learning to read. I never said people on both sides. Most people on either the right or the left aren’t extremist commies or fascists. The extremists minorities on the other hand, one and the same. Intolerant of any other views or criticism. Your comments are a perfect example demonstrating.
Most people on the left are Communists. You using Communist as an analog with Fascism is blatant proof that you have in fact not touched grass nor actually engaged with leftists. Most people on the right are liberals.
I am not sure what kind of strange bubble you live in but that is objectively not true. Most people on the left are most definitely not communists. You either do not understand what the word communist means, or you live in a very strange bubble or country where everyone on the left is described as a communist.
Communism (from Latin communis, ‘common, universal’)[1][2] is a left-wing to far-left sociopolitical, philosophical, and economic ideology within the socialist movement,[1] whose goal is the creation of a communist society, a socioeconomic order centered around common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange that allocates products to everyone in the society based on need.
Most people on the left are NOT pushign for common ownership of the means of production and distribution and are most definitely not in support of a centrally planned economy.
This is also the danger of extremist views, they think anyone who does not subscribe to their extremist viewpoint is against them and the enemy when in reality, 90% of the people on the left would not agree with communist ideology which has failed in reality time and again.
It doesn’t matter where I live, Communism is the standard for the left in a global scale. Marxism is the foundation of the left, and Communism is the ideology of Marxists. Unless you’re horribly confused and mean to refer to the Overton Window, left and right don’t change based on location.
All in all I think you’re confusing left and right with the Overton Window.
If you can’t examine real world examples of your philosophy critically, you’ve no business in the debate. Tankies aren’t willing to hear about the flaws apparent in the system any more than your average thin blue bootlicker will.
I say this as someone who makes guillotine “jokes.” Definitely jokes.
The definition of socialism is workers owning the means of production. That means democracy in the workplace. Worker’s councils. Equal representation. Majoritarian politics.
I will always argue against pure democracies. People are not invested enough to provide a coherent opinion on 100% of the solutions our societies require for survive and thrive.
A vote over the use of chemicals for water treatment could easily end in their permanent ban. Hell, with the right malicious intent, someone could easily get dihydrogen monoxide banned from crop fields.
A pure democracy is how Idiocracy becomes a reality. Now, a mix, such as a republic electing the careful use of democratic socialism… Sure!
That isn’t how it works. It’s like if you’re a part of a cooperatively run business, then you get equal say in workplace practices. There isn’t a ‘boss’ dictating the rules to you.
Unpopular opinion time; the US already uses metric/Celsius where it matters; in science, engineering and the military. Where it doesn’t matter, we use a weird hybrid system that makes intuitive sense to us and is accordingly perfectly functional and doesn’t need to be changed.
One thing about which fish know exactly nothing is water, since they have no anti-environment which would enable them to perceive the element they live in.
Marshall McLuhan, War and Peace in the Global Village
It’s a metaphor. Hopefully this helps clarify things.
The version from David Foster Wallace’s “This is Water” commencement speech at Kenyon College:
There are these two young fish swimming along and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says “Morning, boys. How’s the water?”
And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes “What the hell is water?“
The point of the fish story is merely that the most obvious, important realities are often the ones that are hardest to see and talk about.
ideologies may function as prepackaged units of interpretation that spread because of basic human motives to understand the world, avoid existential threat, and maintain valued interpersonal relationships. … such motives may lead disproportionately to the adoption of system-justifying worldviews. Psychologists generally agree that personality traits, individual difference variables, needs, and ideological beliefs seem to have something in common.
so in this sense memes are like little atoms of ideology aka “prepackaged units of interpretation that spread because of basic human motives to understand the world”
Wouldn’t the Bernie Sanders “I’m once again asking for your support” fall into that category? I’ve seen it used for lolz in all sorts of topics that had nothing to do with politics. Same for any other memes featuring political figures
I remember Obama granting himself the Hero of the Soviet Union medal and pinning it to himself using a satanic portal. I think. I’m pretty sure. Or so I’ve heard at least.
Theoriticaly yes. I mean ignoring the russian thing completely. China still has some serious large scale privacy and human rights violations. Alghtough arguably as with ‘woke’ in reality tankie is a meaningless term used to divide pepole between us and them instead of actually just discussing the actual issues.
And what are you doing with privacy? We have none here in the US and our lives are not really any worse for it is there? If anything the only time we see any privacy rights is when some one wants to hide how they are hurting us. Corrupt politicians and the like.
There is definietly more privacy than in china( Not that the issue doesnt exist in Us ,Europe or the rest of the world,but its not as bad ,you can get vpns or messaging apps that will tell the goverment to f* off or simply beacuse they dont collect any relevant data like signal ). Also you still left out massive human rights violations, arguably much more important thing .
What rights? To my knowledge all of those claims are made up by our state department to cover our genocide in the middle east and our funding and training far right extremeists.
Yes there’s no privacy in the US, and the US has numerous human rights violations, but China is obvioudly worse cus no freedom, inscrutable asiatics, tank man. Checkmate tankie smuglord
The USA has explicit foreign policy doctrine stating that using strongmen dictators is important for anticommunism. The USA supports over 70% of the world’s dictators.
The USA also has the worlds largest prison population and uses them for slave labour.
The USA has been involved in many genocides over the years.
No cause the US would have to even pretend to give a shit about its own populace and pretend be a social serving government, for anyone that supports the US in it’s current form to not just be an authoritarian pro-capitalist dick sucker.
No tankies like all that stuff but with the words “for the greater good” slapped on their ass while gargling authoritarian balls.
No, I am a tankie but I don’t support any authoritarian regime. I don’t support America or the EU for example. I like Cuba. They have laws mandating queer rights, women’s right, health care, strong democratic participation.
Around here it is pretty common. Easily. Most of the people who actually ever worked to improve society have been labeled tankies so it is a badge of honor.
I asked this question a little while ago because I’ve heard the term but it’s not always clear what it is referring to. I think that similarly to ‘woke’ it is used in the context of ideological or political battles, so the definition is variable depending on the context. Opponents will likely have the widest definition since that way they can insult the largest group of people whose beliefs they disagree with, eg. “If you support Ukraine you’re a tankie”.
Words like ‘progressive’, ‘socialist’, ‘authoritarian’ are more appropriately descriptive if that’s what you’re going for. If you want to have an argument then ‘woke’, ‘tankie’, ‘SJW’, ‘karen/keith’, ‘snowflake’, ‘bootlicker’, ‘edgelord’, ‘redditor’ are good choices.
The term originated in a British socialist political party, I can’t remember which, as a term for other socialists that supported the Soviet Union’s invasion of I think Hungary. The tank parts originates from the fact tanks were used. Like you say though, the term has become very watered down now and people kind of just throw it around without much discernment.
I’m gonna try and give an actual brief history. The word “Tankie” originated from a split in the Communist party of Great Britain in the 1950s, over the Soviet invasion of Hungary. Those who supported the invasion were called “Tankies” by those who opposed it.
That would’ve been it, and it would have faded into history as an obscure piece of British leftist slang, if it weren’t for the word’s rediscovery decades later, where more modern leftists used the term in a half joking way among each other.
At some point over… Really just the past couple of years or so, tankie breached containment, and has been worming its way into non-leftist people’s vocabularies, where it’s lost any and all connection to its original meaning.
So when, say, OP of this thread uses it, it’s unclear what they mean. Do they mean communists in general? Leftists in general? Supporters of China? What does it mean for a white, Western, leftist to ‘support’ China anyway? Is it just a general term for someone they deem Authoritarian? Or do they mean a specific kind of “Patriotic Socialist” who LARPs as a communist but actually holds deeply reactionary ideas?
It’s all very unclear. So I wouldn’t take “Tankie discourse” too seriously tbh. It’s just a thought terminating cliche at this point. If you want to talk about any of those groups mentioned above… Just be specific and dunk on who you want to dunk on. There’s legitimate, good faith, critiques to be made of all of them. Just make them, and be thoughtful about it.
But running around and calling anyone you don’t like a Tankie doesn’t foster good discussion. Especially when I have to sit down and decipher which one of 6 different possible definitions of “Tankie” someone might be referring to.
I mean… I guess in a way it is a symptom of it, if you consider the growing concern of hacking part of enshittification and this, a method of stopping or at least slowing an attack down, being a product of that.
It’s more of an anti-enshittification device that just comes with a slight bit of shittiness in the form of another step to logging in.
Yeah, it just winds me up when sites impose these bits of shittiness on you without allowing you to opt out. Because I was happy to sacrifice a bit of my account’s security for convenience
It isn’t enshitification in the sense of trying to make the platform make money, but it is throwing up new roadblocks in the way of using the platform. It makes it harder to just show up, register, and post code. It creates multiple tiers of users who have different privileges on the platform. And from here it would be easier to move to, with some of the same justifications, some sort of requirement to pay for code hosting.
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