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feoh , to linux in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism

Interesting assertion, but is it really?

The Linux kernel is a single software product produced by a single entity and ultimately controlled by a small cadre of highly trusted people.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Anyone can fork it and do what they want, people respect Linus and follow suit because he’s good at what he does and knows it best. He holds no power or authority beyond the willful respect and acknowledgement of the people.

TCB13 ,
@TCB13@lemmy.world avatar

Isn’t that mostly what happens in the communist regimes currently in existance?

Blackmist , to linux in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism

So is Linus Lenin or Stalin?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Neither, the title specifically states Anarcho-Communism, not Marxism-Leninism. Closest analog would be any other AnCom that created a large publicly available service.

Melina , to linux in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism
@Melina@hexbear.net avatar

It’s actually an example of something that doesn’t work so anarcho communism

IsThisLoss ,
seas_surround ,
@seas_surround@hexbear.net avatar

melina you can’t Post on other instances you’re too powerful

Drewfro66 ,
@Drewfro66@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Lmao amazing

Urist ,
@Urist@lemmy.ml avatar

Pretty much all of the internet and most appliances run Linux. If you are actually taking the comparison seriously it would say that it does work.

EDIT: Or BSD, but the same holds true for it as well.

xor ,

not to mention Android and iOS are essentially gnu/linux…
(different kernels but, still)

therealjcdenton , to linux in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism

There are still laws and it has stability so no it’s not

Unmapped ,

Anarchy means no rulers. No hierarchy. There would still be rules/laws.

chobeat ,

Commenting with no clue what people are talking about

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Anarchy isn’t a rejection of structure, but a complex web of horizontal structures.

Jknaraa , to linux in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism

It’s actually a really good analogy, because it can only run on fully-capitalist hardware.

atomkarinca ,

which was made possible thanks to public funding.

kebabslob ,

This not the dunk you think

0xb ,
@0xb@lemmy.world avatar

Amazing how every single part of your comment is so wrong.

It’s actually a really good analogy,

Not an analogy, an example. Those two are different things.

because it can only run on

No, it can run on many things, including open source collaborative hardware that exists.

fully-capitalist hardware.

What the hell even is that? Fun fact: until very recently most of the computer hardware was made in communist China. I know, scary. And now that a lot of effort is being made to get that production out of there, those efforts are being sponsored by public money to an incredible degree. Billions of dollars of taxes (you know, community resources) are being poured into that because big corporations are the biggest lovers of government handouts.

Jknaraa ,

No, it can run on many things, including open source collaborative hardware that exists

Please explain to me where this “open source collaborative” Internet hardware is on which you run your bitcoin network.

ji59 ,

Never heard of RISC-V?

Aux ,

Only RISC-V spec is open. Hardware is still proprietary and is using proprietary cores manufactured using proprietary tech processes. 1% open source in the product doesn’t make the product fully open source.

explodicle ,

Why does it matter which software we’re running? Running a Bitcoin node on something comes right after running Doom on it.

aniki ,

It’s behind by decades of capitalists making the industry a festering shithole.

voidMainVoid ,

Fun fact: until very recently most of the computer hardware was made in communist China. I know, scary.

China hasn’t been communist in a long time.

axont ,

What in the hell is capitalist hardware? Does my computer own a factory?

BlueMagaChud ,
@BlueMagaChud@hexbear.net avatar

how many yards of linen for my dust filters?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

What is “fully-capitalist hardware?”

huf ,

it sanctions other CPUs and strong arms them into giving up their cycles

Jknaraa ,

Same sort of deal as “anarcho-communist” operating systems. @@

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

That answers absolutely nothing. Do you think Capitalists designed hardware, or Engineers?

Jknaraa ,

Do you think Capitalists designed hardware, or Engineers?

I’m just gonna leave this quote as is, so you can think about it.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I have. Engineers, ie workers, designed the hardware. It was not the Capitalists that owned the companies doing the design.

bear ,

It really seems like you didn’t have an actual argument, you just wanted to whine and duck away from any pushback.

axont ,

Are you saying capitalists and engineers are one in the same? Maybe sometimes, but it’s not capital that makes things, it’s labor.

mindbleach ,

How the hell did you pick lemmy.ml?

Jknaraa ,

Because people aren’t one dimensional objects.

mindbleach ,

And that excuses a total lack of awareness.

Jknaraa ,

I don’t need to excuse your imagination.

mindbleach ,

Case in point. You think quoting an argument and sneering is a counterargument. Obviously, because you don’t know the first thing about labor theory of value.

Someone asked if you think capitalists or engineers did the engineering, and you revealed you don’t understand the question.

Jknaraa ,

You are once again building a flawed model of the dynamic at play here in an attempt to ease the discomfort you feel from encountering something that doesn’t make sense to you (why did I choose to join this community?). I’m not even attempting to build any counterarguments because the responses I’ve gotten don’t even attempt to understand what I’ve said in the beginning. To be utterly frank I just lack respect for people who think of themselves as any flavour of anarchist while still dreaming of a system as thoroughly rigid as the artificially created Internet. You pretend to hate the system while desperately trying to invent excuses for continuing to make yourself at home within it.

mindbleach ,

No dude, you demonstrably said ‘I’m going to repeat your argument so you can think about it.’ Projecting some emotional state onto me is not gonna change how you fucked this up.

This is mockery. I am calling you ignorant.

I am trying to highlight how you joined an explicitly leftist server, whilst remaining aggressively unaware of… genuinely the first things people learn about leftism. So when you try smugly posturing your way out of a pointed question, you’re just revealing you know less than nothing.

To be utterly frank I just lack respect for people who think of themselves as any flavour of anarchist while still dreaming of a system as thoroughly rigid as the artificially created Internet.

Anarchists being naked hippies, of course, not organized laborers. The internet was mostly designed and operated by academics. It runs on half a century of “does this sound right?” collaborative standards. Whatever browser you’re reading this in has its origins in anti-monopolist diehards building better software out of spite.

None of which is even addressing the initial failure. Capital didn’t design your computer. Intel’s founders definitely did, but only because they were workers dissatisfied under Fairchild, who were in turn workers dissatisfied under Shockley. The early history of silicon valley is halfway to semiconductor co-ops.

At no point did shareholders build hardware.

drndramrndra ,

Well you solved that conundrum rightly. Now let’s go linch those dirty Apple and John Deere engineers. Since they’ve designed those machines, they must be the only responsible parties for designing them with their extreme anti-consumer and anti-repair policies. They must get commissions on every licensed repair or something, it’s definitely got nothing to do with capitalists putting restrictions on the design team in order to increase profits, nope…

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

You’re completely off on what I’m getting at. The idea of “Capitalist” hardware, as though the Capitalist did the labor, is wrong. Engineers are paid for their labor power, they don’t typically get royalties or anything of the sort, just like any other laborer.

Someone saying that FOSS software relies on Capitalist hardware is putting the Capitalist over the Engineer, as though the Capitalist created the hardware, and not the labor of the miners, assemblers, designers, engineers, and so forth, regardless of who owns the Capital the labor is done by the Workers. FOSS is agnostic to whoever owned the Means of Proruction of the hardware using or producing it.

Reil ,

Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and capitalist hardware.

Fire at will, commander.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

No, not the Bootlicker Beam!

oeLLph , to linux in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism
captainlezbian , to linux in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism

FOSS is an ancom as food not bombs and books to prisoners programs.

itslilith , (edited )
@itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Don’t know about books to prisoners, but food not bombs is definitely influenced heavily by libertarian socialism

captainlezbian ,

Is that why there were so many darn anarchists there?

And yeah books to prisoners programs are both a means of direct action and of spreading anti carceral propaganda to those most effected. Not all programs are anarchist, but the one I helped with had a zine library that included a lot of stuff by former prisoners about the harm, ineffectiveness, and racist origins of the American prison system. Which was good because at least that was something they always had enough of unlike English-Spanish dictionaries. Seriously if you ever have any lying around donate it to a books for prisoners program. A lot of prisoners want to learn to communicate with those they’re locked in a cage with. And for anyone with more liberal sensibilities it’s also a form of self improvement that helps on the outside.

9488fcea02a9 , to linux in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism

Also, Linus is a “woke communist”

social.kernel.org/notice/AWSXomDbvdxKgOxVAm

orgrinrt ,

I have some newfound respect for the man, it seems. Not that I didn’t respect him earlier, just thought that his toxicity was the defining trait of his temper. I find these takes somehow mellow the image in my mind.

andxz ,

The man is a swedish speaking Finn originally, it kinda comes with the territory. We might technically be a minority but we’re still as Finnish as the rest of them (to a certain degree at least).

LemmyIsFantastic ,

If you’re a tankie you can be a cunt? What an absurd take.

Edit: tankie is originally too strong for Linus. Still a terrible takeaway.

Edit 2: Linus is worth 150M+, not exactly giving that away either.

orgrinrt ,

Not really sure what you mean. Just my personal anecdote, I made no attempt to generalize it or imply objectivity…

ezchili ,

Communist != tankie

Tankies are always communists, communists aren’t always tankies

LemmyIsFantastic ,

For sure. I backed off a bit a while ago. Tankie is definitely not the right term.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Linus isn’t a tankie, and Socialism/Communism isn’t giving away money. It’s a dramatic restructuring of the economy into a Worker owned and operated one.

LemmyIsFantastic ,

I already conceded hours ago that tankie was absolutely the incorrect term. You are absolutely correct it’s an entirely incorrect characterization.

BaldProphet ,
@BaldProphet@kbin.social avatar

I'm pretty sure the economy is less worker-owned in socialism than in communism.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Depends on what exactly you mean by Socialism, but by the definitions of Socialists, no not really. Socialism is Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, plain and simple. Communism is a Stateless, Classless, Moneyless society, post-Socialist. Marxist-Leninists occasionally call the transition to Communism Socialism, and as such an overall Socialist system could have Capitalism within using those terms, but other forms of Socialism such as Anarcho-Syndicalism have full worker ownership of the Means of Production without being Communist.

You’d have to define what you mean by Socialism, because I disagree, a fully Socialist economy is just as worker owned as a fully Communist economy.

BaldProphet ,
@BaldProphet@kbin.social avatar

I've never seen any kind of authoritative definition between little s and big S socialism, so if you are intending to draw a distinction based on capitalization alone, I consider that to be a semantic game. I believe there is no such distinction. I understand socialism to involve public (i.e. government) control of production, and inherently more authoritarian than true communism. In that sense, I see 20th century communist nations as more socialistic in implementation because of their emphasis on state control.

In short, socialism is just a kind of authoritarianism that pretends to be beneficent, while communism is more of a person-to-person, bottom-up ideology. On the topic of this thread, I can see how Linux and more broadly the FLOSS movement are communistic, but I see them as only marginally socialistic, at most.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m not making any distinction. Socialism is socialism, capitalization or not, and the common definition is plainly Worker Ownership of the Means of Production. Whether done a la Market Socialism, where worker Co-ops form the economy, or democratic Socialism where there is liberal democracy that owns industry, or Marxism, Syndicalism, etc, this doesn’t change.

What is causing you to believe Socialism is authoritarian? If production is owned collectively, rather than by mini-dictators a la Capitalism, how is this more authoritarian?

As for 20th century Socialist countries controlled by Communist parties, such as the USSR or Maoist China, no leftist believes them to have been Communism, even themselves. They were Marxist-Leninist states attempting to build Communism via Socialism, in their own words. Some leftists call them red-fascist, or State Capitalist, but every leftist agrees that they had not achieved Communism.

Following the previous discussion, FLOSS is both Communist and Socialist. All Communism is Socialist, as all Communism is focused on Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, however not all Socialism is Communist.

Makes sense?

BaldProphet ,
@BaldProphet@kbin.social avatar

I can't think of a government that would truly treat the industries it controls as "worker owned". The workers would merely be employees of the government.

Either way, you're entitled to your beliefs.

SaltySalamander ,
@SaltySalamander@kbin.social avatar

I'm pretty sure there has never been an instance of socialism or communism in which the economy was even a teeny tiny bit worker-owned.

fosforus , (edited )

Edit 2: Linus is worth 150M+, not exactly giving that away either.

Given the magnitude of his contribution, he could be a multi-billionaire, calling loudly for cage fights for his wife to beat up Zuckerberg and Musk. Then again, Linux probably wouldn’t have been as successful if he had gone that route.

I think it’s safe to say though that he’s no communist or probably not even center-left in the economic sense. I mean he did deliberately and permanently relocate to USA from Finland in the 90s. Also his father is a Swedish People’s Party politician, and that party is the best kind: classic liberal.

notabot ,

I think even he realized his tocicity was a problem a few years ago, so he took time out to work on that and seems much more balanced now.

Atemu ,
@Atemu@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s unkown whether he improved his temper or whether he just built a very good mail filter for himself though.

notabot ,

That’s fair, but the result seems to be the same; he’s nowhere near as caustic when interacting with people as he used to be. I had quite a lot of sympathy with the message in most of his technical rants, but the delivery was counterproductive. If he’s changed that I think he’s done well.

fosforus ,

Isn’t that comment pretty toxic though, even if it’s toxic for the viewpoint that (I suppose) you support?

Because your “woke communist propaganda” comment makes me think you’re a moron of the first order.

I mean I agree 100% with what he’s saying too, and also how he’s saying it, but I wouldn’t call this exactly mild.

orgrinrt ,

It’s all relative. With Linus, with what I have been exposed to, this does give a milder impression, can’t really explain why though.

nix ,
@nix@merv.news avatar

What platform is that? I’ve never seen a mastodon type platform with remote follow

moreeni ,

Akkoma, which is a fork of Pleroma. Twitter-like Fediverse has 3 major software pieces: Mastodon, Pleroma (and forks) and Misskey (and forks)

DickFiasco , to linux in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism

I thought it was an autonomous collective.

Land_Strider ,

You’re fooling yourself. We’re livin’ in a dictatorship, a self-perpetuating autocracy, in which the working class–

ikidd ,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

Oh, Robert, there’s some lovely filth over here…

testman ,

Listen, strange penguins biting people is no basis for a system of government.

DickFiasco ,

Supreme executive power derives from using sudo, not some farcical user account control.

goodgame ,

Come and see the kernel inherent in my system.

CrabAndBroom ,

I mean, if I went 'round saying I was a sysadmin just because some angry Finn lobbed a scimitar at me, they’d put me away

xia , to linux in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism

A lot of magic can happen when scarcity vanishes, or is ephemeralized.

guh65 , to linux in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism

Fuck off

Kiwi_Girl ,
@Kiwi_Girl@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Are you okay?

Kuori ,
@Kuori@hexbear.net avatar

crybaby detected

milo128 ,

its sad that you’re so closed-minded and brainwashed to think “communism bad” that you wouldnt even consider the possibility of this being true

centof ,

I did just for you. Hope that makes you feel better.

shotgun_crab ,

So then you fucked off? How was it?

SaltySalamander ,
@SaltySalamander@kbin.social avatar

No, u.

Corgana , to linux in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism
@Corgana@startrek.website avatar

Cory Doctorow has a book, “Walkaway” that is basically exploring the politics of FOSS on a societal scale. It’s pretty nerdy obv but I enjoyed it and it doesn’t overly glamourize any political system the way you’d typically see in political fiction.

not_amm ,

There’s a book called Opt-Out from Rory Price about a future where humanity starts using AR more and more to the point that it’s almost obligatory to have a device of this kind for everything, even as ID. It then talks about a group that develops a free/libre version of this device’s OS and they have to decide about personal issues or try to maintain their views. It’s entertaining and not too long, but I think it shows a very possible future.

I haven’t heard from its author in some time, but I think they discovered they were someone else too ;), that’s why I love this book.

drwankingstein , to linux in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism

a capitalist funded anarcho-comunist ecosystem, ironic

TheAnonymouseJoker ,
@TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

Libs that think “money” = capitalism have water vapour in their skulls

Aux ,

More like a capitalist funded autocracy.

governorkeagan , to til in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism

Why are people downvoting this?

HomebrewHedonist ,
@HomebrewHedonist@lemmy.ca avatar

I almost did myself, but then I looked up the term,and I realized that Linux is exactly that. For me, it’s because I thought I knew what the term meant. I thought that it advocated for state owned software, because communism is all about state controlled property.

So, I was wrong.

ono , to til in TIL that operating system Linux is an example of anarcho-communism

Just wait until you learn about the Benevolent Dictator For Life.

pbpza OP ,

It’s not relevant, because this title gives only status and not actual power, people can still fork the software and modify it however they want.

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