barbarosa

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Palestinian population increased by some 500% since the founding of Israel in 1948. The goal of the current Israeli operation is the destruction of the actually genocidal Hamas, not of Palestinians.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Which one ?

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Israel withdrew from Gaza long time ago and was not occupying Gaza before Oct 7 when Hamas decided to declare war on it by massacring and kidnapping Israeli civilians.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Gaza is only an “open air prison” because it’s controlled by a jihadist organization fixated on a religious genocidal fantasy and willing to commit funds, resources and civilians’ lives towards it. Its’ crucial to remember that Gaza borders Egypt as well. The Israeli and Egyptian blockade of Gaza is a legal, defensive measure taken as a result of Hamas’ intentions, threats and violence, not the other way around. Israel left Gaza in 2005 withdrawing all civilians and military, and is met with hostility and violence from the territory ever since. Leaving Gaza unchecked while Hamas operates it as a terror-state would only bring about exacerbated violence and death.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

I think you are conflating between Gaza and the West Bank. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. No occupation, no fences (other than a border) and no annexation of land

barbarosa , 8 months ago (edited 8 months ago)

Again, Gaza is no prison. It has a border with Israel and also with Egypt. Before the Oct 7th massacre Gazans were crossing to Israel for work every day.

Here’s how life in “Auschwitz” looked like nitter.net/imshin/status/1733819052659740965?s=20

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Hamas cares even less for the lives of Gaza civilians. They cowardly hide in their tunnels, take humanitarian supplies by force from the population and shoot at Gazans when they try to escape from their human shield purpose.

All of these crimes have been documented and you can find them online. Hamas is a dictatorship jihadistic organization who controls the population by fear

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Israel was not occupying Gaza, in fact it withdrew its settlements and all army forces in 2005. On October 7th, not a single Israeli soldier was in Gaza.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Gazans used to cross to Israel on a daily basis for work (since October 7th, I don’t see that happening anymore)

What about Egypt ? What is their role in this “open air prison” ?

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Like the previous comment said, not a very effective genocide. Land wise, Palestinians were offered their own state on 48, they rejected so that Jewish people will not have their own state.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Each side blames the other on why the agreement blew up. Honestly you can choose to believe any side but we won’t know.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Life in the prison looks tough nitter.net/imshin/status/1733819052659740965?s=20

barbarosa , 8 months ago

I think looking solely at the American aid angle is too narrow of a view. Hamas are Muslim brotherhood, not exactly friends of the regime. Probably hate Hamas more than they hate the Israelis

barbarosa , 8 months ago

No, they don’t deserve it. If you were Israel, and 1200 of your people would have been murdered, raped and 400 were taken hostages, what would you do differently?

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Airstrikes don’t affect underground tunnels where Hamas hides with all the humanitarian supplies and fuel along with the precious hostages while the less privileged Gazans suffer above

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Not a paradise but not too bad of a prison either nitter.net/imshin/status/1733819052659740965?s=20

The tunnels are built to provide strategic advantage over Israeli military superiority. Also to smuggle equipment for rockets which Hamas has plenty of and uses them regularly. Ordinary Gazans do not get to use the tunnels to hide and stay alive. They are needed as human shields instead.

Israel is far from being a spotless angel. Nothing in life is black and white like that. But Hamas started this one. And Israel cannot live with an organization that kidnaps, rapes and beheads people on its border

barbarosa , 8 months ago

As a Palestinian, you don’t have any criticism of Hamas ? Oct 7th was just an “act of resistance” according to your view?

Do you agree with Hamas ? Why one state solution and not two states?

barbarosa , 8 months ago

What did Hamas do to help these people with all the humanitarian Qatari money it received? What does Hamas do now with the fuel and humanitarian aid it receives ?

It built tunnels, rockets to massacre and kill in it’s one goal, to completely drive the last of the Jews from the land. It lives underground while people above ground live in hell.

It’s sad what happened and continues to happen to the people of Gaza. I wish they will overthrow the terrible organization that rules them and start using the aid money for good

barbarosa , 8 months ago

I agree with your analysis of Israel. I don’t see much hope for change there, unfortunately and looks like this sentiment will only grow stronger from now on. However the discussion was around Hamas specifically. They don’t want to live in peace alongside Israel. They completely deny the concept of Israel and will not stop until the last Jew is driven out. Can’t justify that either

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Personally, I definitely support the right of Palestinians to exist. They should have their own state and live peacefully side by side to Israel. Unfortunately both Israelis and Palestinians are plagued by horrible leadership that prevent any of this from happening

barbarosa , 8 months ago

I do not brush aside the suffering of Palestinians. Both populations are screwed over by bad leadership.

However, Hamas started this one by murdering and kidnapping women and children and doing horrendous things. Israel has the right to retaliate. They should do so with the least amount of casualties.

Unfortunately, in the long run, this gets no one closer to nowhere.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Given the chance, I would immediately start negotiations for two states solution but that will never happen in the current climate.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Okay. Seems like you’re under the delusion that if Israel had an open free border with Gaza, like in the EU, peace would break in the region

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Jews have lived in this land for many generations as well and equally have the right for that land as well. That’s not to say that they should drive whoever lived there out. They were offered full citizenship and their own full sovereign country which they didn’t have before but they refused and instead declared war.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Palestinians should agree to get their own country and rule it themselves. Why would they be starved and killed ? Not sure I follow. No one should be starved or killed.

And regarding Hamas - Israel cannot coexist next to it. Since Palestinians will not remove Hamas, who else will do it ? Egypt ? The rest of the Arab world ? Israel is left to do it unfortunately. I would like to see any other country in the middle east handle a situation like that… Think they would eliminate Hamas with 0 civilian casualties?

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Unfortunately everything you said about israel is true, as an (expat) Israeli I see the current conflict only drives us further from any solution and more bloodshed in the future is almost certain.

Regarding Hamas, it’s a fundamentalist jihadistic group that will not stop until the complete annihilation of all the Jews, with that I’m certain as they are saying exactly that. However they can be overthrown, that is what this war is about. Who will replace them ? No idea. Might be even worse…

There are many good people on both ends that want to live in peace. Unfortunately the leadership is bad, driven by extremists and the politics are horrible (at least on Israel’s side, don’t know much about PA)

barbarosa , 8 months ago

I think you’re giving too much discount for the Palestinians for their current state or affairs and make it sound like everything that happened to them was done to them by Israel only. Both you and I know that is not true. A lot of things could and should have been handled differently, the same of course can be said for Israel. So try to get out of the position for a moment and see that there are a lot of things Palestinians can do to try and change their situation, regardless of any shitty behavior by Israel.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

I condemn all such behavior. Extremists on both sides are setting the tone unfortunately. I can assure you that Israelis are asking the same questions as they keep seeing the videos of rape and murder in a loop since October 7.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

No, each side is in a propaganda echo chamber.

No death or suffering is more or less important than others.

No one ( well, almost no one) in Israel wants to see innocent civilians getting killed.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

I can see you are washed with hatred, I don’t blame you.

I can tell you many stories about Israeli peace activists that were affected by all this as well, like this guy for example: marketwatch.com/…/israeli-exec-who-hired-palestin…

He hired engineers from Gaza and the west bank to try and foster peace through work and his daughter was murdered on Oct 7th. He still hasn’t given up on hope.

If you only choose to hate, you continue to cycle

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Do you just want to troll or have a meaningful discussion?

barbarosa , 8 months ago

I’m saying exactly that, there’s a propaganda echo chamber and information on the other side is very little so not sure where we disagree on that

barbarosa , 8 months ago

I think Palestinians are very much conceived as the victims today world wide. And I think they are playing that card well and I don’t blame them for that.

I didn’t want to go to “who started it” because it’s a useless debate. The cycle has been going for decades with casualties on both ends.

I’m very much capable of empathy. This whole thread is about the Israel Hamas war so I steered the discussion back to that topic.

I am very sad about the current state of affairs, there’s immense suffering on both ends and it’s not going to stop anytime soon. I don’t hate Palestinians. As an expat Israeli, every time I see a Palestinian abroad we usually become friends and naturally have more in common.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

At which point do you believe that Hamas will disarm its arsenal of rockets firing regularly at Israel ? What would need to happen for Hamas to do that you think ?

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Every Palestinian in Gaza knows they are using hospitals, mosques, schools to conduct their military operation from there. Have you seen them wearing uniforms in their videos?

This is no secret, it’s playbook assymetric warfare tactic I honestly don’t understand the denial about it. Do you expect them to have some military base with a helicopter landing so Israel can bomb it in a second?

barbarosa , 8 months ago

A lot of what you said is just factually incorrect. Putting the west bank aside and focusing on Gaza, there was no humanitarian crisis before October 7 and there are no settlements in Gaza. The “snipers at the border” were not so effective on the day of October 7th when Hamas broke into Israel and massacred women and children. Hamas did not go into settlements in the west bank. It went into regular villages and cities and did what it did.

And that last part about the mocking of Holocaust survivors, not sure where you get that from

barbarosa , 8 months ago

They most definitely have uniforms, they just don’t use them when fighting Israel as they are embedded inside civilians. And they most definitely hide and attack from schools, mosques and hospitals.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

One of Hamas’s uniforms

barbarosa , 8 months ago

I like how you quote critical articles from Israeli media, that is a testimony that freedom of speech is very much a real thing there.

The first article from Haaretz which is very known as anti settlements leftist newspaper. All it says is that instead of giving weapons for the population in the villages and kibbutz and cities around Gaza to defend themselves in case of intrusion, it was given for settlements in the west bank and when the shit hit the fan they were completely unprepared.

The second article is also an internal criticism of the progroms that went in Huwara. I am happy that criticism of Israel is still possible

The last one about Itzik Zarka, who should really not get a headline as he’s the lowest form of scum, yeah these people exist but are very much on the fringe of society and do not deserve any attention. Unfortunately Bibi likes to use these people when convenient for him

barbarosa , 8 months ago

If you are talking about the water situation in Gaza prior to October 7th, I want to remind you that Gaza also borders with Egypt and any humanitarian crisis that is present in Gaza could be easily aided by Egypt, opening its borders and providing them all the water they need. They are their “brothers” after all.

In my opinion, Israel has the right to refuse aid to a place that constantly fires rockets at them. But Egypt, What is their excuse? Why are you not pointing your criticism towards them as well?

The sad thing is that Israel has developed advanced technology to shoot rockets in the air. This paradoxically has been a mistake as it normalizes firing rockets as long as the casualty numbers are very low.

Please, if you can, tell me of any other example of a country that will allow constant barraging rockets towards its land and still provide aid to their enemy?

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Firing rockets at another country on a regular basis is also an act of war

barbarosa , 8 months ago

The situation with the Palestinians in Gaza is very tragic and sad. At no point did I ignore it. War is horrible and especially when Hamas embeds itself inside the civilian population, people get hurt and it’s very sad.

I think that you, however, are completely oblivious to the suffering on the other side. There are still little children held hostage in the tunnels under Gaza. Call it resistance, freedom fighting as much as you want. It’s no less tragic.

Even though Hamas started this round, the question of who started it is irrelevant. The relevant question is how does it end. No side is willing to make any compromise and I fear this will go on for years still.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

It IS the government

Then according to your same logic, it is a genocidal government as well, as they murdered 1200 people in few hours.

Hamas doesn’t embed itself

Thier fighters are fighting from within the population. It’s by design, and there’s evidence that they prevent the innocent population from fleeing the war zone even by shooting people who try to flee.

I have as much sympathy for them as I do for visitors to a slave plantation caught up in a slave uprising. Which is to say, some, but not too much. The blame should lay on the family that took their children to a plantation, knowing it was a plantation.

This analogy makes me understand that you see no legitimacy what so ever for the existence of the state of Israel, or Jews in that land, no matter on which borders.

I won’t go into the history of Jews in the land of Israel as I don’t think it will convince you with anything. You think of Jews as a colonial (white) power occupying a foreign land. Let’s agree to disagree.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Jews have lived in this land. They were given part of that land again after ww2 by a UN decision. Arabs that were living there were also given part.

Jews were willing to share their part of the land with the Arabs, as equal citizens

Jews accepted the offer, Arabs didn’t and declared war.

Everything since then just went downhill

Personally, I’m in favor of going back to the original resolution and have two countries. But if having sharing one country will end the conflict, then by all means…

Unfortunately both sides don’t have enough interest of solving this conflict…

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Israel makes mistakes and have very bad policies. I am the last one to defend it.

However, IDF is not a murderous organization as you think of it. There are clear rules on how to engage in combat and strict written moral rules that everyone should follow. I know because I served there and was taught these rules and had to memorize en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF_Code_of_Ethics

However, people are people. There are bad apples. People also just make mistakes and Israel has (too) many different opinions and fragments and ideologies that I have nothing in common with. So yeah it’s complicated.

Your view of Israel as one murderous genocidal entity is not different from the view a lot of Israelis have of the Palestinians, especially after October 7th, that is sad and will not bring the conflict anywhere to an end

barbarosa , 8 months ago

I know “Shovrim Shtika”. They are doing important work.

Like I said, there are bad apples and bad things are being done.

But it’s not everyone. And not even the majority.

When I was serving, I have never encountered a situation where any of my team members did anything like that. But I know these things exist. In most of the cases I heard of, these things were taken very seriously inside the IDF and people were kicked out and sentenced.

Unfortunately, occupation is corrupting the soul and in recent years the cases have grown in numbers. Add to that the horrible government Israel currently has and you get a shit show.

barbarosa , 8 months ago

Palestinians were unaware

Of the UN partition plan ? en.wikipedia.org/…/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_…

never agreed

Correct

barbarosa , 8 months ago

You have a very dichotomous view of this subject.

All I was trying to convince you is that Israel is not all evil. I can give you countless examples where Palestinians have been treated very well by Israel and by IDF soldiers.

I don’t blame you for your haitred. It’s a product of your experience. I wish you all the well and that you will find peace one day (all of us).