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samokosik ,
@samokosik@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Yes, ceasefire needs to come asap. Obviously under the conditions that as many Israeli hostages have to be returned and Hamas must be removed.

nutsack ,

love to see it

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Straight from the horse’s mouth.

TWeaK ,

Promoting Piers Morgan in any shape or form is a bad thing.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

How does host being someone changes validity of what guest is saying and who the guest is?

TWeaK ,

A good host is impartial, and draws out answers from their guest by asking hard questions. A good host will probably piss off everyone over time, because they’ll ask questions that contradict both the interviewee and the viewers’ biases. Piers Morgan is not a good host, he’s a fucking vile wretch that contaminates anything he’s involved with. The world will be a better place after his death.

Daiken ,

Great to see the world has some people of conscience.

luttapi ,
@luttapi@lemmy.world avatar

London is the fair town for terrorists worldwide.

Mrkawfee ,

Israel is deliberately mass.murdering civilians and flattening cities. They did the same thing during their war in Lebanon in 2006 - levelling urban areas like Dahiyeh to cause disproportionate damage as a deterrent. I’ve read that they’ve dropped the equivalents of 33 tons of explosives for every square kilometre of Gaza. To inflict this on one of the densest urban areas on earth on a civilian population is pure evil.

Project2501 ,
@Project2501@lemmy.world avatar

Was it evil also to bomb and flatten Berlin and the rest of Germany at the end of WW2?

If you are British or American, how do you feel about that?

barsoap , (edited )

Back then it wasn’t known that it’s not an effective strategy, Germany’s reaction to those bombings pretty much set the precedent for it becoming a war crime.

And from a German perspective: We started it. And did way worse, e.g. bombing Polish cities with the explicit goal to cause maximal casualties in predominantly Jewish quarters. The allies, meanwhile, did not try to maximise casualties or anything like that but tried to make as many people as possible homeless, in an attempt to lower economic output, gum up the system, etc. Generally speaking, it didn’t work. Have a Kraut video for a lot more context.

And no such thing could possibly be the goal in Gaza as Gaza already doesn’t have an economy. Other possible justifications, such as “have lower overall casualties” (see e.g. bombing Dresden vs. slogging through it like slogging through Budapest) don’t apply because Hamas is not going to surrender and are way more erm entunnelled. To get them out of there you have to get in there. Or maybe pour concrete in all exits you can find? That’d have my blessings.

Furthermore: As a German Zionist I’d rather Israel didn’t slide into complete inhumanity, and further into fascism, thank you. (Ben-Gvir is minister so they’re already half-way there, also, there doesn’t seem to be much opposition against collective punishment). It’s not exactly a thing you wish on a country: It’s pretty much the worst calamity that can befall a country.

Project2501 ,
@Project2501@lemmy.world avatar

What would be your preferred and effective strategy against someone who wants you dead and comes into your home and kills your children? Expect and accept apology?

barsoap ,

comes into your home and kills your children

Are you talking about the Deir Yassin massacre?

Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, at some point people have to make up and let the past be the past. Currently Israel is going way beyond eye for an eye.

As to the current situation: How about at least having the fucking decency to build a couple of tent cities outside Gaza and let children, the elderly, and vetted people out of that killbox. If that’s too much, how about not bombing areas you previously told people to flee to. This is like the bare minimum to be able to claim you care a fucking iota about humanity.

ParsnipWitch ,

People gobble up Hamas propaganda and repeat it. On social media a lot of things have become facts that aren’t proven or were shown to be false. For example the alleged bombing of the hospital or the alleged bombing of the escape route.

On the other hand, most people don’t even know that Israel is constantly bombarded from different sides and that there are ongoing attacks on their settlements etc.

People online don’t know because it is an ongoing info war which is very unequal. Hamas and other extremist islamic groups win by numbers alone because the majority of Muslims unquestioning stand behind Palestine.

About 79 % of Israelis are Jewish, there are 16 million Jews world wide.

99 % of people in Gaza and 85 % of people in West Bank are Muslim. 1.8 billion people are Muslim world wide!

Palestine, Hamas and activists invest into social media and propaganda a lot because that’s the war they will almost certainly win. And it comes with huge benefits people seldom acknowledge.

Just think about it: Hamas was able to conduct a mass killing and abduction of civilians and continues to do so and people are justifying it left and right. You don’t see the faces of Israeli victims or photos of the destroyed buildings on Israel’s side online.

You should definitely look up some less biased sources.

barsoap ,

People gobble up Hamas propaganda and repeat it.

Are you saying Hamas made up Deir Yassin or what are you getting at? Can you, for a single moment, be actually concrete in your accusations? What, precisely, did I say that is supposedly Hamas propaganda?

For example the alleged bombing of the hospital or the alleged bombing of the escape route.

The escape route bombing happened. The hospital bombing didn’t happen… this time. The IDF has bombed hospitals on other occasions. And don’t get me started on what’s going on in the West Bank.

Palestine, Hamas and activists invest into social media and propaganda a lot because that’s the war they will almost certainly win. And it comes with huge benefits people seldom acknowledge.

And Israel doesn’t?

You don’t see the faces of Israeli victims or photos of the destroyed buildings on Israel’s side online.

Are we living on the same planet? It has been all over the news. Now Israel’s completely disproportionate response is all over the news. That’s how news cycles work.

You should definitely look up some less biased sources.

I’m actually, as already mentioned, a Zionist and quite well-informed, thank you very much. Thing is: I gave up in despair when the fucker killed Rabin, for the first time realising just how fucked parts of Israeli civil society are. Back then it was a national tragedy, now Israel has a minister of national security who called for that very assassination. The short of the story is that it’s better for the Jewish people for there to be no Israel than a fascist Israel, and y’all are heading right into that direction with ever increasing speed.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Yeah, that doesn’t fly in the real world where actions have consequences.

Justice cannot simply be allowed to die in the dark just because both sides are stubborn. We as humans owe reality much more than that. Trying to let the past be the past is what got us here. We have to do something to hold everyone who committed a war crime responsible so all sides feel as though justice has been done.

Forgiveness blackens the soul, bro. Justice is what brings humanity light and those people so badly need light right now.

barsoap ,

We have to do something to hold everyone who committed a war crime responsible so all sides feel as though justice has been done.

So what exactly did all those civilians do in terms of committing war crimes? How many Settlers are facing the music for killing Palestinians while doing highly suspicious things such as harvesting olives?

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Yeah, that’s a pretty transparent attempt to twist my words. We have international criminal courts. We’ve held tyrants and genocidal maniacs to the hangman’s noose before and need to start doing it again. We’re capable of discerning who is responsible for doing what. We’re adults.

You might not want justice to happen, but the rest of us do, and we won’t be deterred by you.

barsoap ,

We have international criminal courts.

Israel is not part to the ICC. Palestine is.

You might not want justice to happen, but the rest of us do, and we won’t be deterred by you.

Now that is twisting my words. Again: How many Settlers are facing the music for killing Palestinians while doing highly suspicious things such as harvesting olives? Is that or is that not advocating for justice?

Meanwhile Israel surely served justice by exchanging 1000 Hamas fighters for a single IDF soldier. Letting stone throwers and crooks go, fine, sure, but people like Yahya Sinwar? Who justly got four life sentences? Fucking stop talking about justice.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

I don’t care what side you’re on. Doubling down isn’t going to let you get around the fact that you can’t sacrifice justice for peace, for any side of the conflict. The ICC really needs to hold authority over all countries. That’s where your quibbling should be taken. If humanity refuses to accept justice, then all you’ll get are genocides and forever wars, and it’ll probably be what we deserve.

barsoap ,

The ICC really needs to hold authority over all countries. That’s where your quibbling should be taken.

Israel won’t join the ICC any time soon because reasons, and Gaza, well, Hamas is running it as their little dictatorship. Best I can currently offer you in regards to justice, thus, is to hold the Israeli justice system to account.

I don’t care what side you’re on.

I’m on the side that opposes fascism. I don’t care what language people do fascism in, or what coat of paint they give it. Kahanites and Hamas are the same shit to me.

SuddenDownpour ,

The priority is creating conditions such that Palestinian teenagers don’t constantly see Israel abusing their families, unjustly imprisoning them, stealing their land and murdering them by the thousands, or else you’ll have Palestinians asking themselves: “What would be your preferred and effective strategy against someone who wants you dead and comes into your home and kills your children? Expect and accept apology?” and joining Hamas.

ours ,

You are only looking at the consequence of oppressing people until they are out of hope and the only path that remains to them seems to be one of violence.

More violence and more oppression will only cement this and pave the road for the next generation of hopeless militants.

The solution would be to break this cycle but that would require concessions from the hardline Zionists.

You too would feel hate and resentment for those who took your father’s land, bombed regularly, put you under a harsh embargo, no jobs prospects, no hope, and, no future.

pinkdrunkenelephants , (edited )

🤔 I wonder if it’s even possible to resolve the situation in a just fashion that holds all parties responsible for their actions.

We’ve tried having third parties intervene but it’s becoming such that humanity as a species is taking sides on the issue.

That means it might not be possible for justice to be done. There might not be anything anyone can do except evacuate as many innocent civilians as possible and let Hamas and the Israeli government fight it out to the last man.

EDIT: Addendum to that, we cannot give up on justice just because it seems hopeless, and I do concede it looks pretty fucking hopeless. But we’re humans. We’re the ones who brought justice into this world and we are its only stewards. If we give up on it, all that’ll be left is genocide and abject fucking darkness. We have to find a way.

livus ,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@Project2501

Was it evil also to bomb and flatten Berlin and the rest of Germany at the end of WW2?

Yes. Reckless bombing of civilians is always evil.

I'm always flabbergasted when people bring up other heinously awful things as if it's some kind of gotcha.

hitmyspot ,

Yes, and add Hiroshima and Nagasaki on that list too.

Shadywack ,
@Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

Hamas doesn’t stop murdering innocent civilians, deliberately targets civilians and avoids military targets, and then hides behind civilians.

Israel needs to eradicate Hamas, but can’t do so as Hamas hides behind civilians. Options are to allow Hamas to butcher the innocent, or go after Hamas with civilian casualties.

I don’t like it, but the extermination of Hamas is necessary. The Gaza civilians are in a terrible position if they withdraw their support of Hamas, Hamas will just execute them. It’s shitty, and terrible, but this is all on Hamas and only highlights the need for their removal.

hitmyspot ,

Hamas hides behind civilians, yes. They doesn’t make killing the civilians right. It makes both sides wrong. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. This is not a war as the west bank doesn’t have an army. Israel prevent them having legitimacy as a country. One consequence of this is paramilitary organisations.

When a terrorist takes hostages, we don’t bomb the hostages to get them out. We kill the terrorists if possible and try to free the hostages.

Mrkawfee ,

This is “war on terror” levels of idiocy.

TWeaK ,

Israel needs to eradicate Hamas, Hamas needs to eradicate Israel. They can’t both be right, thus, it can only be that both are wrong.

Kasumi ,
@Kasumi@lemmy.world avatar

Genuine ask - no BS or anything here. Has anyone else seen like the same three posters on this sublem bombard it with some of the most hilariously pro-Hamas biased content I’ve ever seen? Like, effectively personal blogs being passed around here as literal legitimate news being reported. It’s WILD to see in real time.

Chariotwheel ,

I don't have an eye got usernames, but I did notice some really dodgy websites getting posted and people, as they are, just upvote on how much they like the article title rather than the contents ot even the surrouding information.

goat ,

Welcome to Lemmy

Ordoabchao ,
@Ordoabchao@kbin.social avatar

Meanwhile Reddit is the Israel propaganda machine, so I guess swings and roundabouts?

goat ,

depends on the sub for reddit. Worldnews is heavy Israel, while publicfreakout and therewasanattempt are very heavy palestine

TWeaK ,

R/worldnews is a shithole, always has been. Before it became under powermod control there was a split and r/animetitties was the place for news. However I think since the API change that place isn’t as busy anymore.

SCB ,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Mrkawfee ,

    Europe is also a Zionist cesspit as is UKpolitics

    TWeaK ,

    On lemmy they’re called communities.

    Also calling for a ceasefire is not a “pro-Hamas” position. It feels like you’re showing bias here more than anyone else. The Independent is also a large and well respected news outfit, and while many such publications have a lot of opinion pieces that are basically blog posts, this isn’t one of them and is in traditional news format - they’re reporting on a planned protest likely to be attended by a considerable number.

    Kasumi ,
    @Kasumi@lemmy.world avatar

    I love how you read what I said - which wasn’t in relation to this direct article - and then strawmanned me so much I’m fucking choking on straw irl from it. Dude, take a break :p

    TWeaK ,

    Lol sorry if I was a little harsh. But you didn’t link to any of the blog posts that you referred to, and the post you commented on isn’t a blog.

    Kasumi ,
    @Kasumi@lemmy.world avatar

    lol no worries I get it, thanks for apologizing <3

    cashews_best_nut ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    TWeaK ,

    Lmao you’re reminding me of this random friend I made on Clash of Clans because of my username, he was a meth head and thought he’d found a kindred spirit. My name originates from a software package from Windows 95, Tweak Tools 95, and a pick to make a 90s hacker name.

    PopOfAfrica ,

    What about a cease-fire’s particularly pro-hamas? Cease-fire means both directions.

    Kasumi ,
    @Kasumi@lemmy.world avatar

    Please re-read my comment lmao. :p

    jmsy ,

    The Hamas active members can have time to hide and reset for another attack if there is a cease fire. They’ll refortify the hospitals and schools they use to hide, as well as gather civilans for shields. They can set up booby traps for a ground invasion into Gaza.

    NOT_RICK ,
    @NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m sure they’ve already done all that considering they were the ones that initiated this conflict. They had to have known a ground invasion was likely after attacking Israel.

    JasSmith ,

    They’ve been mostly locked in place since 8th October. There’s no way for them to regroup and refortify with Israel dropping bombs on anything which looks like a terrorist. A ceasefire would let them regroup in civilian buildings, which I think we all want to avoid. They have to qualms with using children as human shields, so we need to keep the terrorists pinned down and get away from those children.

    T00l_shed ,

    Well then, best just carpet bomb all of gaza then right?

    SCB ,

    How bad do you think Israel is at carpet bombing? Honestly, multiple weeks of carpet bombing, by any modern estimate, should dismantle all of Gaza. That very demonstrably has not happened.

    So are they really, really bad at it or are they not attempting it?

    T00l_shed ,

    Have you not seen the satellite images?

    SCB ,

    Yes, of course I have. I am aware of what wars do.

    T00l_shed ,

    Then you would see the absurdity of your statement.

    SCB ,

    I think you may want to investigate what a modern “carpet bombing” campaign can do, because it’s at least an order of magnitude more destructive.

    T00l_shed ,

    Ok so the issue is semantics? Ok fine over 6000 bombs dropped in a tiny area. What gaza is 365 sqaure km, most of the bombs are in the north so over 6k bombs in an area of 180 Square km? Obviously ignoring the open spaces so what is the threshold of acceptability for you?

    SCB ,

    There were more than that many rockets launched into Israel in the same period. Should responses not be proportionate?

    I’ve already stated multiple times that Israel is bungling the humanitarian aspect of this and should be held accountable for that.

    That doesn’t make it genocide, or even disproportionate, by any stretch of the imagination. It’s most assuredly not “carpet bombing.”

    There is no country on the planet that would not respond similarly.

    Is it a shitty situation? Hell yeah. Are the causes of this long and varied? Sure. Is this specific war uniquely bad? No. It’s pretty run-of-the-mill. War is just a terrible thing. This is a tragedy, and there’s no need to make it seem worse than it is because of politics.

    T00l_shed ,

    So if hamas manages to get more powerful weapons, it’s justifiable for them to hit back israel? What israel is doing will empower hamas, there will be more and deadlier attacks by them in the future. A saying comes to mind. Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity.

    SCB ,

    So if hamas manages to get more powerful weapons, it’s justifiable for them to hit back israel?

    This is essentially Israel’s Cassus Belli for obliterating Hamas. Whether you agree with Israel here or not, Hamas as it stands will cease to exist. They have no chance of holding ground and Israel has made no bones about their willingness to engage in tunnel-fighting.

    It’s a mistake to think this isn’t a 9/11 style realignment. Everyone’s concerns here should be on the treatment of Gazans in a post-Hamas world.

    From a pure realpolitik sort of reasoning, Israel’s lack of simultaneous humanitarian commitment hurts them here. I disagree with some of their choices on moral lines, but even Kissinger would disagree with their moves (though for different reasons).

    No one is above criticism, but reality is going to happen. At this point, only the future really matters.

    It’s easy to paint me as callous here but I think taking the easy road out in this conversation ignores the reality of the situation, and valid discussions that could be had, over insipid political slogans.

    T00l_shed ,

    Remeber how isis and alqueda were destroyed after the us bombed the shit out of them? Neither do I.

    SCB ,

    These are extremely different situations, but also to suggest that ISIS is at all a major player right now is silly.

    T00l_shed ,

    It all has to do with driving recruitment, mass killing of Palestinians will bolters hamas, and the thing about terrorist organizations is that they don’t have to be “major players”.

    SCB ,

    They do if they want to be effective

    T00l_shed ,

    Or they become affiliated with a larger cell, and the cycle continues.

    SCB ,

    Hamas is currently the government. It won’t be the same.

    I’m not saying there won’t be terrorism. There are already other terrorist groups in Gaza. There will be terrorism.

    But the Gazan people will be able to have elections and have self-determination again.

    If anything, this is a totally practical, non-morality reason why Israel should be setting up aid camps. There’s really no argument against it. They should be showing a closed fist to Hamas and an open hand to Gazans in general.

    T00l_shed ,

    I agree on your last statement, flattening residential areas however I’d not an open hand to Palestinians. This will get worse before it gets better.

    SCB ,

    Terrorists come kill your family. You call the police, and someone replies “there’s been enough violence.” Meanwhile the terrorists continue to advocate for killing your extended family as well as numerous other families, and you know these threats are credible because they continue trying

    How sensible is that, to you?

    filister ,

    So this is definitely justifying:

    • expelling 1.5Mln from their homes
    • carpet bombing residential neighbourhoods
    • restricting the access to clean drinking water, electricity, food and fuel for the general population
    • preventing people fleeing the war zone
    • Blocking humanitarian aid to enter
    • bombing areas that they told the civilian population is safe
    • preventing humanitarian aid to enter the enclave
    • Cutting the access to the internet and telephone, so people are not even able to call an ambulance or check how their loved ones are fairing.
    • While actively refusing to admit that with their actions they have caused a humanitarian catastrophe, despite what UN, Red Crescent and I don’t know how many more international agencies are saying.
    • Refusing to even call for a humanitarian pause to let some needed aid enter the enclave

    while killing 10 times more civilians, babies, kids and women and causing immensely more suffering for the innocents.

    You can’t be a genius to see that one evil doesn’t give you the right or the moral high ground to commit even greater evil.

    SCB ,

    preventing humanitarian aid to enter the enclave

    Demonstrably not happening, as there are aid convoys in south gaza right now.

    preventing humanitarian aid to enter the enclave

    I think this is really shitty of Egypt, Jordan, etc to do, yes. Israel and the US tried to get them to take refugees. Took forever to even get them to send aid.

    The rest is pretty typical of urban combat, so no, not genocide. If you want civilians to not die in an urban warzone, you ask them to leave the warzone. Urban fighting is ludicrously dangerous.

    filister ,

    Are you kidding. How many trucks have been allowed. Do you think they are enough?!? We are talking about 2.5 Mln people.

    You are writing all this from the comfort of your own house, people there don’t have a roof over their heads. You can’t even fathom what conditions they are living in. Are they all deserve to suffer?

    How many more civilians need to die to condemn Israel? 10K, 20K, 50K, 1M?

    SCB , (edited )

    How many trucks have been allowed.

    It’s weird you think Israel is the cause here

    Are they all deserve to suffer?

    I would prefer none of this happen, but Hamas does not value human life. It’s truly tragic.

    I find it very strange that your inference is that I don’t care.

    crapwittyname ,

    Hamas does not value human life. It’s truly tragic.

    The IDF EVIDENTLY does not value human life either. You are a fucking cunt.

    SCB ,

    That’s easily proven false by simply looking at the efforts they’ve put in, whether you believe they’re sufficient or not (I personally do not).

    Meanwhile Hamas literally forces civilians into “martyrdom” at gunpoint.

    Your meany words aren’t going to hurt my feelings. Let it out, bud. I’m here for you.

    filister ,

    What about humanitarian cease fire, claiming that IDF is doing sufficient in this conflict is ridiculous. They are bombing the shit out of Palestine.

    Nowhere is safe, the number of fatalities is 8000, not to mention the psychological trauma or the number of injured people, with nowhere to escape. People are trapped and scared, and they are reduced to subhuman beings by the treatment of Israel, who don’t have elementary human rights.

    You have never ever been subject to such an intense bombardment, nor living in such conditions.

    And the worst is that this war won’t achieve anything , you can’t put people to the corner and not expect that those people will not try to bite you again. Where is your humanity, your empathy with people? Or are you also thinking that all Arabs should be exterminated so that you can live an even more comfortable life?

    SCB ,

    I don’t believe Israel is providing sufficient protection, but a cease-fire is nonsensical and only helps the aggressor.

    Your insults won’t ever tilt me. I don’t lack empathy. I simply accept reality as it is.

    filister ,

    Could you point out to me, where exactly I have offended you?

    Are you then accepting the fact that Israel is mistreating Palestinians for decades, and is committing a lot of human rights violations? www.yesh-din.org/en/ for some perspective.

    And are you seriously expecting that after the hostilities end, normal Palestinians would just forget and forgive everything they had been put through and open a new page? It is a bit cynical but I don’t think that this offensive would achieve anything but even more radicalization and division. The best way to fight Hamas and organisations like this is to provide long lasting peace and treat your neighbours respectfully.

    Hamas is fuelled by hatred and killing a lot of civilians and kids won’t help for its eradication.

    SCB ,

    You can’t offend me. I wouldn’t worry about that.

    Hamas very seriously will not exist within a few months. We can discuss the morality of that, but the reality is that Hamas is not an idea, it is an organization with structured logistics. Dismantling that structure kills Hamas as an organization, even if members of Hamas are still at large.

    filister ,

    Remind me in 3 months. I can imagine this would age like fine milk.

    The reality is that in 3 months casualties would be 2-3 times higher if not more and Gaza’s infrastructure would be even in a more dire situation. And people would be even more polarised, radicalized with no constructive plans how to achieve peace in the long term.

    SCB ,

    In 3 months the Gazans people will be free from Hamas’s boot on their throat. It is my hope that Israel recognizes this opportunity for what it is. I agree they have not done a good job demonstrating that so far.

    filister ,

    A division of the Israeli military responsible to overseeing civilian affairs in Gaza (COGAT) said this morning that it would allow increased supplies through the Rafah crossing in the coming days.

    Not to mention that the same officials are constantly trying to downplay how grave the situation there is. And today’s looting of humanitarian supplies only comes to prove that people there are really desperate!

    filister , (edited )

    I would also leave this here:

    Karim Khan said that impeding aid deliveries for Gaza could constitute a war crime and that there must be an effort by Israel to ensure vital supplies are allowed in.

    Prior to this, some 500 trucks carrying aid and other goods had entered the territory every day.

    So to put things into perspective, for 3 straight weeks only 117 trucks carrying humanitarian aid entered the enclave.

    AphoticDev ,
    @AphoticDev@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Yeah, they let the aid trucks in, the bombed the aid after it had been delivered.

    SCB ,

    That is a gross misrepresentation.

    Mrkawfee ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    SCB ,

    This is disgusting and even though I don’t know you, I know you’re better than this kind of comment.

    Innocent people died.

    Mrkawfee ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Mrkawfee ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    SCB ,

    This comment is wholly uncalled for regardless of any mitigating circumstances

    Mrkawfee ,

    I’m sorry if you are offended by facts. You can always take comfort in the fake narratives created by US and European MSM.

    SCB ,

    Lol

    Mrkawfee ,

    The IDF killed its own citizens on October 7th. This is a statement of fact backed by survivors. So whoever deleted my comment stop censoring the truth please

    thegrayzone.com/…/israels-military-shelled-burnin…

    SCB ,

    It’s less the factual nature and more the presentation and what is implied.

    Mrkawfee ,

    What do you mean presentation?

    SCB , (edited )

    Trying to diminish multiple massacres with a story about friendly fire, as if those things are at all the same.

    You’re a bad person and I’m glad I’ll never see you again

    mwguy ,

    What’s the last cease fire that wasn’t broken by regular rocket fire from Gaza?

    Pasta4u ,

    What you want to do is drive hamas out and destroy and fill all the tunnels they made. Then when you start letting people.back in you try and filter out any hamas or pro hamas people. It be kinda like of the usa had a working southern border… or like how the usa and Canada birder works

    SuddenDownpour ,

    Oh, I’m sure the goddamn million Palestinians who have just been kicked out of their homes and seen it flattened to the ground will not have any particular ill will against Israel. All of them will be perfectly subservient saints who will offer the other cheek when Israel keeps pouring out settlements in their backyards.

    Pasta4u ,

    As opposed to the Palestinians who just attacked them ?

    What do you think the down side is for the Israelis? They can flatten Gaza and destroy hamas arsenals and under ground network and kill a bunch of them setting back any attacks by years or decades.

    Or in your mind they can just not do anything and keep getting attacked. Then each time they do nothing , hamas will get bolder and create larger attacks and take more hostages.

    hanekam ,

    A ceasefire where Hamas gets to keep their hostages is a huge Hamas victory. Advocating for something which gives Hamas a huge victory will be interpreted by some as support for Hamas.

    These demonstrations are full of Palestinian flags, without an Israeli one in sight. It’s hard to argue against them being partisan

    PopOfAfrica ,

    If the goal is not to harm your own hostages, you wouldn’t be using bombs, which is real using very heavily right now. It makes a literally no sense.

    hanekam ,

    I don’t understand how your comment relates to mine. Do you believe that because I consider a cessation of hostilities where Hamas keeps their hostages a victory for Hamas, that I mean to say that rescuing hostages is the scope of Israel’s campaign?

    It clearly isn’t. Israel intends to destroy Hamas and are appallingly callous about the collateral damage they cause in the process

    filister , (edited )

    So every defender of human rights is pro-Hamas according to your twisted logic.

    Last night the families released a statement calling the intense bombing on Friday “the worst of all nights”, due to the uncertainty of the safety of their loved ones during IDF strikes.

    And guess what, people on the other side of the fence are saying it, now imagine going through this personally with all your family. Not able to reach your loved ones, without food, Internet, or electricity. I am sure if you go through this hell you would change your tune

    SCB ,

    Generally you use the most firepower directly before committing ground troops, so yes I would expect last night to be the worst night.

    goat ,

    dunno what they’re expecting Britain to do.

    moftasa ,

    As a permanent member of the UN Security Council the UK can call for a ceasefire and the release of all hostages.

    goat ,

    And how does the UN/Israel punish Hamas for the hundreds of civilians that were massacred on the day?

    Ordoabchao ,
    @Ordoabchao@kbin.social avatar

    We could, but we won't. Have you seen who's currently in charge of our country? Even if Starmer gets into power, no ceasefire will be called for.

    Our country has a vested interest and lots of money invested in Israel, same as the US.

    TWeaK ,

    There is pressure from within the Labour party to have Starmer call for a ceasefire. However he is very much Tory Lite.

    Ordoabchao ,
    @Ordoabchao@kbin.social avatar

    He's a budget Blair. I'm surprised he hasn't purged all of the left leaning Labour members yet, I thought he had completed that a while back.

    TWeaK ,

    I dunno, he’s more posh than Blair, but he’s definitely less capable.

    Infiltrated_ad8271 ,
    @Infiltrated_ad8271@kbin.social avatar

    Stopping any support for isrel and pushing for others to do so as well would help. Or at least send humanitarian aid to gaza.

    goat ,

    Unfortunately most humanitarian aid ends up in Hamas’ hands

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    how is a protest march in a city, on an island, in a different continent going to do anything in Gaza?

    fossilesque ,
    @fossilesque@mander.xyz avatar

    Sometimes, solidary is better than nothing when you feel powerless.

    fosforus ,

    With a lot of effort, we can hope to make London as bad as Gaza?

    aniki ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    burchalka ,

    Nope, just keep bringing in another 500K-600K per year, of illegal immigrants from predominantly Muslim countries, and they’ll take care of it…

    echo64 ,

    Are you asking how protest works in general? The place doesn’t matter much. Do you want them to protest in gaza? They can’t go there

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    The UK is one of Israel's strongest supporters after the US, so pressure from them can do a lot.

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    why would the UK government care what it’s citizens want? I suppose there’s a first time for everything but I rather suspect that it wont be this time

    livus ,
    @livus@kbin.social avatar

    It's not, but generally in democracies, people protest to let their own government and their fellow citizens know how they feel about an issue.

    • When the issue is domestic, they are generally seeking a policy change.
    • When the issue is foriegn, they usually hope to influence their own country's foriegn policy stance/actions on that issue.
    ParsnipWitch ,

    Because Hamas tactics include an information war to win sympathies.

    Gazumi ,

    How the hell can we ignore the mindless murdering of innocent families. This is not war it is the genocide that has been planned for a long time

    fosforus ,

    I think Israel is doing exactly the opposite of ignoring the mindless murdering of their innocent families.

    Gazumi ,

    Youcve counted and compared the deaths of Israelis to Palestinians, plus considered the Palestinian children locked up with no rights or appeals etc. for at least 3 generations?

    fosforus ,

    Is this about numbers?

    PopOfAfrica ,

    “I think Israel is doing exactly the opposite of ignoring the mindless murdering of their innocent families.”

    For you, it indeed sounds like a tit-for-tat kill-for- kill system. If we were doing that, which we aren’t and shouldn’t be, then there’d need to be a lot more dead Israelis to balance the playing field. Obviously you can see why that is a horrendous idea.

    fosforus ,

    Well, if we’re going to the numbers, do remind me, how many Israeli civilians have died due to IDF using them as human shields? And what does that very low number tell you?

    This is one of the many reasons why it’s completely pointless to play the numbers game in this war.

    PopOfAfrica ,

    Dude, I’m agreeing. You’re the one who’s making it out to be some sort of tit for tat kill for kill for scenario.

    fosforus ,

    Well let’s agree to wtf is this discussion anyway then

    moriquende ,

    So if terrorist government A kills civilians, it’s okay for murderous government B to take revenge by killing more civilians? Why does it matter where these people live, the only thing that matters is to stop killing them, depriving them of their freedoms and rights and hey, maybe even try to give them a happy life?

    fosforus ,

    Government B’s primary goal is not to kill civilians. A’s is. This is not a numbers game, it matters why and in what context things are done.

    candybrie ,

    Ends do not justify means. Killing civilians, especially children, is abhorrent.

    SCB ,

    Yes war is indeed bad. That’s why Israel tried to avoid war.

    ArtikBanana , (edited )

    deleted_by_author

    •
    burchalka ,

    And continuous violence/genocide in Tigray region of Ethiopia. No one mass-protests those in NY, London or Berlin…

    goat ,

    And Uyghur genocide.

    livus ,
    @livus@kbin.social avatar

    @burchalka no, they don't, but although it didn't get airtime, the US for example expressed opposition to it and leveled economic sanctions against Ethiopia for it.

    Amaltheamannen ,

    Ethiopia isn’t a major “Ally” like Israel is.

    Lazylazycat ,
    @Lazylazycat@lemmy.world avatar

    I don’t think it’s difficult to understand that people feel moved by atrocities that are closer to them. The UK directly helped create present day Israel and the colonisation of Palestinian land. Our current government also supports Israel in their attack on Gaza, meaning our taxes are being used to fund weapons and aid the genocide that’s happening right now. Of course people are protesting here.

    Does it mean people don’t care about Tigray? Or course not, but we have less direct influence over what’s happening there.

    livus ,
    @livus@kbin.social avatar

    Tigray, West Papua, Oromia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Western Sahara, Ituri, Xinjiang...

    But that does not mean we should be silent on this latest. Really, we should be letting our representatives know we protest all of these things.

    Syntha ,

    But people don’t protest these things. Most do not give a fuck. They are very invested though, when Jews are involved.

    livus ,
    @livus@kbin.social avatar

    @Syntha only if the Jewish people happen to be living in Israel. Western news media is way more interested in Israel than it is in almost any of the other countries I mentioned.

    I think this is partly to do with the US because it seems to loom especially largely in their political consciousness.

    People care more about things they know than things they never heard of. Someone posted a very informative documentary about West Papua over in worldwithoutus recently and it was interesting to see how many youtube comments on it were from people who had previously had no idea what was happening there! And now they know, they do care.

    31337 ,

    Probably because the west supports the genocidal country, and the U.S. is directly funding the genocide (in the 10s of billions, I believe). So, theoretically, if there is enough dissent from western civilians, the west could exert enough political and economic pressure on Israel to stop the genocide and end the apartheid (since Israel is so dependent on the west).

    I admit, I’m a bit ignorant of the most of the other genocides listed above, but I don’t think the U.S. directly supported the genocidal groups to the same degree, and I think those genocides would’ve needed direct military action to end. In the case of Xinjiang, I don’t think the U.S. could do anything about that without causing great harm to itself.

    Syntha , (edited )

    The US was literally refuelling Saudi Aircraft mid-air so they could continue to bomb Yemen. I don’t think there was ever such a level of Involvement from any western country in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    300 000 - 400 000 deaths, btw. Probably an order of magnitude worse than the whole Israel conflict, in merely a decade.

    How do you explain such an enormous level of difference in how much people care, if it’s not about the Jews?

    thatsage ,
    @thatsage@lemmy.world avatar

    You mean Hamas attack on Israeli citizens right? Just to clarify

    Gazumi ,

    You mean you ignore the atrocities, apartheid and land theft that built up to this? The palestinians just naturally and gave up their homes and rights for a few generations?

    goat ,

    You really shouldn’t argue this, since it always goes both ways in every single scenario.

    atyaz ,

    When have Palestinians invaded Israeli land? Israelis are still creating illegal settlements right now.

    But more importantly, this genocide is not a two way street. There are terrorist attacks but that pales in comparison to an all out genocide. When have Palestinians leveled whole neighborhoods or dropped chemical weapons on people? Israelis are determined to kill or at least displace the millions of remaining Palestinians and it’s disingenuous to say that’s the same thing the Palestinians are doing.

    goat ,

    When have Palestinians invaded Israeli land?

    During the many times the Arab League declared war. They lost though, which is why they’ve been limited to Gaza and West bank.

    But more importantly, this genocide is not a two way street. There are terrorist attacks but that pales in comparison to an all out genocide. When have Palestinians leveled whole neighborhoods or dropped chemical weapons on people? Israelis are determined to kill or at least displace the millions of remaining Palestinians and it’s disingenuous to say that’s the same thing the Palestinians are doing.

    It very much is. The situation in Palestine and Israel has always been very back and forth, with terrorist attacks from both sides, military strikes into each other’s territories, the deaths of innocent civilians, such and such. No one is a saint here, except for those caught in the crossfire.

    Gazumi ,

    The Arab league time point conveniently ignores the prior land incursions into Palestine. It is like a climate change denier arguing based upon a limited or specific time bound period. Not t9 mention that Israel has consistently mentioned pushing the Palestinians into the sea. An extremist Right Wing party in charge is exactly what we see leading to the inhumane mass murders. No different to Bosnia

    goat ,

    And ignoring the Arab League point is also conveniently ignoring Russia, France and Britain occupying Palestine, as well as the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and WW1. Though, I’m not going to insult you for that, since that’s against the rules.

    Gazumi ,

    I agree. The point we start is with the post war determination of “A people without a land and a land without a people”. We collectively created the issue. Israel will never return to its original boundaries, but we are responsible for their expansion to date and we are currently supporting them in their current assaults.

    nonailsleft ,

    ‘We’?

    goat ,

    I think Israel should stop their settlement expansions into the west bank. But the land lost by Palestine and the Arab League during the wars should remain as Israel’s–such is war.

    thatsage ,
    @thatsage@lemmy.world avatar

    Bro, it was Iraq Lebanon Syria Yemen and friends who literally drove their Jews to Israel as refuges of genocides.

    If you don’t consider them Palastinians that’s fine.

    Palastinians regularly invade Israel with rockets and have also done so with suicide bombings and shooting and knifing etc. and sadly on the 7th with something much more horrible than anything of earlier levels.

    Yes, some Israelis are creating illegal settlements, but they’re not condoned by Israel and are taken down.

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    Yes, some Israelis are creating illegal settlements, but they’re not condoned by Israel and are taken down.

    What the fuck? What the action fuck? Just... Look things up before commenting, man.

    thatsage , (edited )
    @thatsage@lemmy.world avatar

    I live in Israel. It’s entirely possible you and I don’t agree on what an illegal settlement is. But you are welcome to provide the reading material you mentioned…

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    Settlements in the West Bank are illegal under international law. Also even taking the Israeli definition, outposts are only sometimes removed, are sometimes retroactively legalized and many are provided security by the IDF.

    Gazumi ,

    I have no religious affiliation or interest. What increasingly caused concern was the map of Israel 50 years ago vs the size today. Also, the incessant extremist approach of settlers bulldozing palestinian homes with support of superior force with no recourse for the dispossessed. I have never been in that position, but if my neighbour turned up with guns, knocked down my house and took my land, there would be an expectation of consequence

    goat ,

    If you’re referring to the massacres being a consequence (and not justifying, I hope), know that Gaza and Hamas separate themselves from the West Bank, which is where the settlements are occurring.

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    However, Hamas has launched attacks for Israeli injustive against Palestinians outside Gaza before. See the crisis in 2021.

    SCB ,

    There aren’t settlements in Gaza.

    Israel literally offered Palestine 99% of the west bank, all of Gaza, and half of Jerusalem, and Palestinian leadership turned it down because the deal included Israel existing.

    goat ,

    Did they?

    SCB ,

    Yes

    I’ll cite it for you if genuinely curious but it’ll be tomorrow cuz I’m omw to a Halloween party

    SCB ,

    I was wrong it was 97% not 99%.

    In 2000, US President Bill Clinton convened a peace summit between Palestinian President Yasser Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak. In May of that year, according to Nathan Thrall, Israel had offered Palestinians 66% of the West Bank, with 17% annexed to Israel, and a further 17% not annexed but under Israeli control, and no compensating swap of Israeli territory.[40] The Israeli prime minister offered the Palestinian leader between 91%[note 1] and 95%[41][42] (sources differ on the exact percentage) of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip if 69 Jewish settlements (which comprise 85% of the West Bank’s Jewish settlers) be ceded to Israel. East Jerusalem would have fallen for the most part[43] under Israeli sovereignty, with the exception of most suburbs with heavy non-Jewish populations surrounded by areas annexed to Israel.[44] The issue of the Palestinian right of return would be solved through significant monetary reparations.[45]

    Proposed in the fall of 2000 following the collapse of the Camp David talks, The Clinton Parameters included a plan on which the Palestinian State was to include 94-96% of the West Bank, and around 80% of the settlers were to become under Israeli sovereignty, and in exchange for that, Israel would concede some territory (so called ‘Territory Exchange’ or ‘Land Swap’) within the Green Line (1967 borders). The swap would consist of 1–3% of Israeli territory, such that the final borders of the West Bank part of the Palestinian state would include 97% of the land of the original borders.[49]

    Flash forward a few years to Obama and this is where shit falls apart. First, Netanyahu sets the table pretty decently and talks resume

    In June 2009, reacting to US President Barack Obama’s Cairo Address,[40] Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared for the first time[57] conditional support for a future Palestinian state[58] but insisted that the Palestinians would need to make reciprocal gestures and accept several principles: recognition of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people; demilitarization of a future Palestinian state, along with additional security guarantees, including defensible borders for Israel;[59] Palestinians would also have to accept that Jerusalem would remain the united capital of Israel, and renounce their claim to a right of return.

    But surprise! Hamas and Hezbollah

    Hamas and Hezbollah, however threatened violence, especially if either side seemed likely to compromise in order to reach an agreement

    Israel existing is nearly always the thing that stops talks, and always because of extremist pressure upon the Palestinian government. The other time they fell apart was when noted shitbird Ariel Sharon tanked them.

    thatsage ,
    @thatsage@lemmy.world avatar

    So what’s beautiful about this is that even if I were to agree with you about whether or not Israel is an apartheid state, and if there is theft of land or not - and make no mistake those things are serious and evil when true - then they are still very far from genocide, I believe the intent of that comment by “mindless murdering”, which is the clear open objective and stance of Hamas.

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    then they are still very far from genocide,

    No it's not. There are actual pogroms going on in the West Bank right now.

    thatsage ,
    @thatsage@lemmy.world avatar

    Can you link references?

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    https://www.972mag.com/settler-attacks-west-bank-gaza-war/

    thatsage ,
    @thatsage@lemmy.world avatar

    This is not a genocide. Some of these are horrible incidents of innocents hurt, and justice must be served for any settler or rogue soldier involved.

    But this is far from genocide and certainly isolated instances.

    If you call this genocide, you kill the meaning of that word.

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    But this is far from genocide and certainly isolated instances.

    How so? This has been a consistent trend going as far back as 1967 and many times has been actually encouraged by the government. Hell, the first settlement in the West Bank was created by falsely confiscating land for "military use" even though it was meant for settlement.

    Look, if the government's policy ranges from turning a blind eye to it to actively encouraging it, while assisting it either way through IDF security and not responding to Palestinians when they call the police, it stops being isolated incidents and starts becoming a systematic effort. And what do we call a systematic effort to vacate people from their lands in large numbers to create Lebensraum?

    Yes, genocide.

    thatsage ,
    @thatsage@lemmy.world avatar

    No, what we call genocide is:

    The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    Genocide isn't only killing, though the intent to destroy a particular group is important.

    SCB ,

    You can’t commit apartheid outside of your country. That’s not what “apartheid” means. Arabs in Israel have full citizenship and proportionate representation in government.

    MustrumR ,

    I don't think that things are black and white here. But I have to agree a little.

    Israel did become a nationalistic autocracy and has deeply corrupt leadership. Still, not doing anything when they were attacked on the scale Hamas recently did, would be just stupid.

    The problem is that they should have kept the civilian casualties to minimum. Ideally under the amount of Israelis that died tho deflate grudges over time and show some degree of good will.

    Then again Hamas has never shown such incentive. And differentiating between Palestine civilians and Hamas collaborators or members is not an easy binary task.

    SCB ,

    The problem is that they should have kept the civilian casualties to minimum

    If they’re not trying to keep civilian casualties at a minimum, then why are so few Gazans dead considering the amount of ordinance at play?

    We know why so few Israelis are dead, considering comparable amounts of firepower, but Gaza does not have the Iron Dome.

    I’d their bombing was indiscriminate, surely they’d have killed more people, yeah? Do you think they’re just really inept, or do you think perhaps they might actually be trying not to kill civilians, and that’s just hard given the geography of the theater?

    MustrumR , (edited )

    I absolutely agree that they can (looking only at military capability) wipe the floor with Palestine with indiscriminate bombardment in a few days.

    But saying that not using that ability means they do enough to avoid civilian casualties is a pretty big jump in logic.

    Military ability isn't everything, geopolitics and market dependance exist. if they actually did that immediately, the response from international community wouldn't be as mild as it's now. So they actually can't.

    What I am saying is that there's a full gradient of effort when it comes to avoiding or encouraging civilian casualties (and not giving a damn about them is in the middle).

    The voices of Israeli ruling politicians before and after the start of this year's conflict doesn't exactly inspire a confidence that enough is being done to prevent them. Some used strategies even increase them unnecessarily with doubtful military gains.

    SCB ,

    But saying that not using that ability means they do enough to avoid civilian casualties is a pretty big jump in logic

    The word “enough” is not found anywhere in my posts, because I think they could, an should, do more.

    “It isn’t genocide” and “civilian casualties are a tragic feature of every war” are not blanket support of the status quo.

    I believe Israel believes they have done everything possible. They are undeniably going above and beyond to act with restraint. I still believe they could do more, especially by putting up a military hard point in the south for aid. I think this would be costly, and dangerous, but is both morally correct and something that would help pave the way for instilling peace after this war.

    ParsnipWitch ,

    Or perhaps people should consider that Hamas is using casualties among Palestinians to win the war against Israel. Because right now it seems like it is working pretty well.

    Additionally, Gaza has 5855 people per square kilometre. I don’t know if people even realise this.

    CrypticCoffee ,

    So bombing the shit out of the place is ok? Deaths are ok?

    These people are in a pressure cooker, so increase the pressure, push them south and bomb the evac routes, don’t let fuel into hospitals or enough food in to Gaza.

    Hamas are assholes, but when you start to justify civilian deaths, you’re no longer the good guy, yourself. They killed x, so we kill y.

    This is looking increasingly like an annexation (especially of the north). Hamas aren’t in the West Bank, it’s run by Fatah, but Israel still rules it with an iron fist and keeps popping up more settlements. Moral actions under international law isn’t something that concerns them.

    ParsnipWitch ,

    Where did I say that? I am not for Israel bombing Gaza. But the way how people argument for Gaza and the way the seem to ignore the problems connected to Hamas and Palestine in general is dangerous, in my opinion.

    Hamas aren’t just “assholes”. This kind of rhetoric is horrific.

    CrypticCoffee ,

    Are you aware of this history?

    lemm.ee/comment/5396325

    Israel is responsible for what Hamas became… You kill a one guy, and they replace with worse…

    MonkderZweite ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    Redrum714 ,

    To be fair the Muslim nations originally started all this.

    So you might wanna try asking the group of people that has been dead set on removing every Jew from the holy land for the past 60 years.

    SuddenDownpour ,

    To be fair the Muslim nations originally started all this.

    Is the Big Brother watching you? Are you being forced to say that war is peace and that peace is war? Blink twice if you need rescuing.

    SCB ,

    This is not war it is the genocide that has been planned for a long time

    What’s your opinion on why Israel is so bad at actually achieving genocide?

    OniiFam ,
    @OniiFam@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Ask a tankie about the Uyghurs and Tibet and watch them squirm. Literally everything is genocide to tankies except actual genocide

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    I mean take a look at this shit. Does this look like failing to you?

    SCB ,

    Yes

    autotldr Bot ,

    This is the best summary I could come up with:

    The United Nations said the move would prevent aid from reaching Palestinians trapped inside the bombarded territory, with Tel Aviv continuing to fire air strikes on the 25-mile stretch.

    Elizabeth El-Nakla and her husband Maged travelled to the region before the Hamas attack on Israel on 7 October, in which Palestinian militants killed 1,400 people, and have been trapped since Tel Aviv’s subsequent retaliation.

    “We support Israel’s right to self defence, in line with IHL (international humanitarian law), and continue to push for the protection of Palestinian civilians,” Mr Cleverly tweeted.

    Ahead of the weekend, Kyle Gordon, who is leading the force’s command team, told a press briefing: “If somebody is calling for jihad specifically against Israel the officers will intervene, gather the information, report it back into us and we’ll be working with colleagues (from counter-terrorism) in relation to what the best course of action is.”

    The head of the Crown Prosecution Service told The Daily Telegraph: “In any case arising from the current protests, there needs to be a very careful consideration of the actual circumstances in which something is said, or a flag is waved or actions are taken.”

    The issue is causing splits in the Labour Party, with Imran Hussain, shadow minister for the New Deal For Working People and MP for Bradford East, breaking ranks to demand a ceasefire.

    The original article contains 808 words, the summary contains 224 words. Saved 72%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

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