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NocturnalMorning ,

We should go back to the days when the leader of the country went to war with you. That’d put a stop to shit like this real fast.

Sundial ,

“The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.”

– Thucydides

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

I mean… they are to the extent they would be.

The idea of the heroic king fighting on the frontlines is a giant load of bullshit that was (and still is) used to manipulate the masses. Even back when we were walls of spears smashing our pointing bits into each other, officers (so nobility and government) would hang back. Because you need someone who can coordinate the battle (to the limited extent they could) and sound a retreat (or flee).

Even modern day middle manager officers are pretty safe either back in the command tent or off to the side so that they can hear the radio and coordinate support.

And if even the Colonels are on the front line? Something has gone HORRIBLY wrong.

This “member when our leaders would actually fight for us” is the kind of bullshit that leads to strongman fascists… like netanyahu.

PugJesus ,

The idea of the heroic king fighting on the frontlines is a giant load of bullshit that was (and still is) used to manipulate the masses.

Not entirely bullshit. Leaders like Alexander the Great and King Richard I are noted as being constantly in the thick of the fighting. Warlords like that need to be in the fighting, exposed to danger, in order to preserve their own military credentials with their troops (who will be far less fooled by tall tales of battles they themselves were in). And that kind of warlord leadership is pretty common before the modern day.

The thing is, it’s ineffective, because it means every time you fight a battle, you risk a decapitation of your entire army or state and a succession crisis. So military institutions that last long enough pretty inevitably come to the conclusion that “At least out of javelin range” is the preferred distance for a king or general.

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

See: Propaganda by strongman fascists

But also? Nobility would not be part of the spearwall. Or, to be more precise, they would not be part of the first spearwall and may only be part of a formation that comes in to mop up when the battle is all but won. Or they would be mounted tanks in the form of plate armor (more richard than alexander). They key being that they would be able to get their blade wet but would be in little to no danger.

I loathe to compare the two as I think Zelenskyy is actually a genuinely good leader who is focusing on his role as a political leader, but he is actually a really good example of this. When things are comparatively safe he’ll walk the front(-ish) lines and get face time with the soldiers to maintain morale and get photo ops. But mostly he is a politician in camo pants who is making sure that the people who actually are fighting for Ukraine’s survival have guns and ammo. A more “strongman” style leader might argue that as being “he is on the frontlines fighting alongside the heroic men and women of our army” but he is never in any meaningful danger.

PugJesus ,

But also? Nobility would not be part of the spearwall. Or, to be more precise, they would not be part of the first spearwall and may only be part of a formation that comes in to mop up when the battle is all but won. Or they would be mounted tanks in the form of plate armor (more richard than alexander). They key being that they would be able to get their blade wet but would be in little to no danger.

While they wouldn’t be part of the spearwall, they generally were in constant and very real danger. Cavalry is safer, but very far from safe, and often dedicated early in the battle to prevent enemy cavalry from taking the initiative. Richard I, for example, who lived before plate armor was in vogue, was constantly in the thick of the fighting, even when the battles were desperate. The Roman generals (and later Emperors) Vespasian and Titus both were wounded multiple times during the First Jewish-Roman War, and they even came from a less foolhardy military tradition of officership. Pyyrhus of Epirus died because he was in the thick of the fighting, and he wasn’t exactly a meathead. Genghis Khan, Emperor Alexios Komnenos, Harold Godwinson, it goes on and on.

These nobles were often a warrior caste, or near to being one, and whatever else may be said of them (how many ‘commoner’ lives they would sacrifice for their own convenience and glory, for example), “Unwilling to face danger” usually isn’t one of them. They’re brought up, not unlike what modern fascists have tried to do, in a society that glorifies death and danger.

Ultimately this is all nitpicking and me being quarrelsome about a small detail, lol, but I enjoy such details.

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

I’m just going to reiterate this for no apparent reason:

Propaganda by strongman fascists.

There is a VERY big difference between “nobles of a warrior caste” and “people who fight and die in a war”. yes, danger exists. Zelenskyy could die from a sudden mortar strike or a sniper any time he is visiting the troops. But every possible precaution is taken to ensure that doesn’t happen.

Which gets back to the reality of it. This is, and always has been, theater. Sometimes it is a politician trying to show that they care about the troops. Other times it is a strongman trying to show that they are a warrior and might makes right so support them.

But all fixating on this does is lead to photo ops and stupidity where fascists (like netanyahu) portray themselves as warriors and veterans so that people will support them.

Because, bare minimum: Being good at ending some lives doesn’t make you a good leader.

NocturnalMorning ,

Pretty sure it’s far more nuanced than that, how fascists get into power, but okay.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Damn. Beginning to think we shouldn’t be selling Augusto Pinochet Saddam Hussein Slobodan Milosevic Manuel Noriega Benjamin Netanyahu all these cutting edge killing machines.

Track_Shovel ,
@Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net avatar

Sue for peace while secretly sabotaging that effort is straight out of Putin’s playbook

MediaBiasFactChecker Bot ,

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theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

Hey that’s exactly the thing they’ve been doing with the settlements and the two state solution. Who would have thought they would use that strategy AGAIN?!

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